questions about vuescan's raw file and workflow

[Steven Woody]

about vuescan's raw file:

1, will the setting of `lock exposure' or `lock color base' has any
effect on a resulting raw file?
2, will the setting of 'output color space' has any effect on a
resulting raw file?
3, can i do all remaining editing tasks in photoshop on a raw file? is
it a good idea to get a quality picture?


i want to archive scan files with only dust removed ( in photoshop ),
which method among below is a better choice?

1, scan to raw files in vuescan, and open it in photoshop to do dust-
spotting, and save it. ( for the method, i heard there is a gamma=1
problem, however, i don't well know what it is and what i need to do
for it in post-editing. )
2, do normal scan in vuescan with b/w points set to 0 and color blance
set to `none'.

thhanks in advance.

-
woody

 

[Roger S.]

1, will the setting of `lock exposure' or `lock color base' has any

effect on a resulting raw file?

Lock exposure will as that's hardware exposure (length of time the
film is exposed). I don't believe color base changes the raw file at
all- that's a software correction.

2, will the setting of 'output color space' has any effect on a
resulting raw file? No.

3, can i do all remaining editing tasks in photoshop on a raw file? is
it a good idea to get a quality picture?

Well... probably but a linear raw file means jumping through hoops.
Unless you use that 3rd party program colorneg (negfix?) that inversts
and color corrects raw negative files you're in for some Photoshop
tricks. Simply doing "invert" in Photoshop will not give you data as
good as what Vuescan can do with color negative files in my
experience. B&W may be different (I scan very little B&W) and with
slides you can either scan with exposure locked and no color
corrections and scanner output space and apply a profile to that or
profile a RAW IT8 target. I've done both and find no benefit in
dealing with the raw file.

i want to archive scan files with only dust removed ( in photoshop ),
which method among below is a better choice?

Not raw- no dust correction is applied. You can scan raw and then
manually hit the save button for each frame to dust-bust, but this
defeats the purpose of batch scanning for me.

1, scan to raw files in vuescan, and open it in photoshop to do dust-
spotting, and save it. ( for the method, i heard there is a gamma=1
problem, however, i don't well know what it is and what i need to do
for it in post-editing. )

Raw = gamma 1 = linear gamma with no automatic dust removal. Don't
bother with it unless you have a specific reason to do it. I hear
Lightroom will work with Vuescan raw files but have not tried it.

2, do normal scan in vuescan with b/w points set to 0 and color blance
set to `none'.

That's what I do. Scan all color and B&W negs as "generic color
negative", exposure and film base color locked, color balance set to
none, and output space AdobeRGB (or whatever you use). I then make
preset starting points from greycard/white cards that I've shot for
each film type that do general color corrections for color negs.
For slides I scan as "image", lock exposure, color balance none,
output space Scanner RGB and then apply the profile I've made for an
IT8 target at the identical exposure using the free program Scarse.

Good luck,
Roger

 

[Steven Woody]

Lock exposure will as that's hardware exposure (length of time the
film is exposed). I don't believe color base changes the raw file at
all- that's a software correction.


No.

thans for above answers, but i have problem in understanding your blow
inputs.

and with
slides you can either scan with exposure locked and no color
corrections and scanner output space and apply a profile to that or
profile a RAW IT8 target. I've done both and find no benefit in
dealing with the raw file.

exposure locked on where?
and if i have not yet get a IT8 target, what profile should i apply?

Not raw- no dust correction is applied. You can scan raw and then
manually hit the save button for each frame to dust-bust, but this
defeats the purpose of batch scanning for me.

the raw file is not IR dust removed is a new info to me! is it ture?
in study of this group, i found many folks prefer to use vuescan's raw
file and manually do extra dust removing to remove what automatica IR
can not remove. this indicates that a raw is already IR removed,
which contracts with your words.

and, what you mean 'manully hit the save button'. will it do a IR
removing on the raw file? and, is there any thing it will also do? i
never heard about it before. would you please explain?

Raw = gamma 1 = linear gamma with no automatic dust removal. Don't
bother with it unless you have a specific reason to do it. I hear
Lightroom will work with Vuescan raw files but have not tried it.

so, if i correctlly understand what you said about the 'save' button,
how about if i press the 'save' button before do any extra manual dust
removing in PS and save the raw file back on?

That's what I do. Scan all color and B&W negs as "generic color
negative", exposure and film base color locked, color balance set to
none, and output space AdobeRGB (or whatever you use).
I then make
preset starting points from greycard/white cards that I've shot for
each film type that do general color corrections for color negs.

a) why you set color neg mode for B&W negs? as far as i know, the
color neg mode will try to remove the color mask on usual color negs,
but B&W film don't get these kind of color mask. so i guess, using
color neg mode for B&W film will mess it up.

b) would you please explain in detail how you do color corrction using
grey/white cards? i am so interesting in it.

For slides I scan as "image", lock exposure, color balance none,
output space Scanner RGB and then apply the profile I've made for an
IT8 target at the identical exposure using the free program Scarse.

scan slides as "image"? it is also new to me. what's the difference
( benifits ) comparing to scan it as "slide"? i also don't understand
why you use Adopbe RGB as output space when scan color negs while use
Scanner RGB as output space when scan slides. what's point here?

Good luck,
Roger

so much thanks!

-
woody

 

[peter wagner]

.....

the raw file is not IR dust removed is a new info to me! is it ture?

From Vuescan 8.4.3.84 UserManual Output Tab:

Little processing is done on raw files so they are a close
representation of exactly what the scanner has produced. Raw files will
not be filtered nor will color settings be applied. As a result, raw
scans may look "wrong".

Raw files .....

The one exception to this is if "Output|Raw output with" is set to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Save" - in this case, the infrared cleaning and grain reduction is also
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
done before saving the raw scan files.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

so much thanks!

-
woody

HTH


Greetings

Peter (he from the moor) Wagner

 

[Roger S.]

Peter answered the IR question.

exposure locked on where?

The input tab. Check the exposure box and input a value

and if i have not yet get a IT8 target, what profile should i apply?

If you don't have a target, I wouldn't do it this way. I'd just keep
the ICC set to "device" profile and output to AdobeRGB or whatever you
use as a workingspace.
For more accurate color correction buy a Wolf Faust IT8 target and
make a few profiles at different hardware exposures (for example: one
for normal slides, one for underexposed) and just make sure you
remember which file was scanned at which exposure setting!

so, if i correctlly understand what you said about the 'save' button,
how about if i press the 'save' button before do any extra manual dust
removing in PS and save the raw file back on?

Save just outputs a raw file. You can't edit it before you output
it!

a) why you set color neg mode for B&W negs?

Don't ask- you're trying to understand why the program works, I'm
telling you *how* it works. Once you have enough experience you'll
sort of see the logic behind it.

color neg mode will try to remove the color mask on usual color negs,
but B&W film don't get these kind of color mask. so i guess, using
color neg mode for B&W film will mess it up.

That would seem to make sense but it's wrong.
If you want unadjusted B&W scans, scan as generic color negative.
Otherwise you have to select the "film and development" type which is
software edits that Vuescan does. Some like it. I'd rather have a
rough file and edit it as I see fit rather than have some Vuescan
edits which are good, and some of which I then have to undo.

b) would you please explain in detail how you do color corrction using
grey/white cards? i am so interesting in it.

Start with my post here and let me know if you have questions:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00AHUF

scan slides as "image"? it is also new to me. what's the difference
( benifits ) comparing to scan it as "slide"?

Slide mode is functionally useless in my opinion- slides are supposed
to be scanned as image. Not intiutive but how it is.

why you use Adopbe RGB as output space when scan color negs while use
Scanner RGB as output space when scan slides. what's point here?

Slides can be accurately profiled using an IT8 target, so I'd rather
apply that profile to get the colors right and then convert to a
working space like AdobeRGB, Ektaspace or Profoto.
IT8 profiling's not meant for negatives, so there's no benefit to
doing it this way. The best thing I've figured out is to create
levels adjustment presets in Photoshop to apply to uncolor corrected
gamma 2.2 images. I scan a lot of color negative and this has
increased my consistency and cut my time editing dramatically.

 

[Mendel Leisk]

Regarding your number 2 question: I think setting the output color
space *will* effect the raw file.

I found outputting a new raw file *from* a raw file, if I set the
output color space to "built-in", the new raw file was identical. If I
set the output color space to anything else, the new raw file was
different. I'm not sure if this is specific to raw-from-raw only, and
this was some time back, might not still be like this. This result is
contrary to the Vuescan helpfile, but that's my experience. In my case
it was costly. You can verify by experiment.

 

[Mendel Leisk]

snip.

If you want unadjusted B&W scans, scan as generic color negative.
Otherwise you have to select the "film and development" type which is
software edits that Vuescan does. Some like it. I'd rather have a
rough file and edit it as I see fit rather than have some Vuescan
edits which are good, and some of which I then have to undo.

snip

Mmm, I believe outputting raw files with film type set to "color
negative" is the one setting that *will* make a big difference to the
output Vuescan Raw file. The green and blue channels will be strongly
brightened, the blue channel the most. Any other Input Tab media
setting will not effect the raw file, nor will any Color Tab setting.
If you're scanning black and white film and want to ouput raw, I would
suggest any setting except color negative.

Do specify 16 bit per channel red/green/blue output for your raw file,
or the extra infrared channel if you prefer, when scanning non-silver
oxide film. My pref where cleaning would be effective would be to
apply the cleaning to the raw. I've found it a pita to work with 64
bit raws with infrared channel.

Actually, at least with my Minolta scanner, I found Vuescan infrared
not very effective, and preferred to make my raws via the oem software.

 

[Mendel Leisk]

"via the oem software. "

Should read:

"via the oem software with ICE."

(I found ICE much better at cleaning with my Minolta Scan Elite 5400,
comparing to Vuescan's cleaning)

 

[Steven Woody]

From Vuescan 8.4.3.84 UserManual Output Tab:

Little processing is done on raw files so they are a close
representation of exactly what the scanner has produced. Raw files will
not be filtered nor will color settings be applied. As a result, raw
scans may look "wrong".

Raw files .....

The one exception to this is if "Output|Raw output with" is set to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Save" - in this case, the infrared cleaning and grain reduction is also
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
done before saving the raw scan files.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

thanks for the info. i am thinking whether it is possible one
accidently apply IR clearning twice? consider an IR cleaned raw file
was opened in vuescan ( scan from disk mode ) while IR clean option
was again enabled.

 

[Roger S.]

Mmm, I believe outputting raw files with film type set to "color

negative" is the one setting that *will* make a big difference to the
output Vuescan Raw file. The green and blue channels will be strongly
brightened, the blue channel the most. Any other Input Tab media
setting will not effect the raw file, nor will any Color Tab setting.
If you're scanning black and white film and want to ouput raw, I would
suggest any setting except color negative.

What I was suggesting was in regards to silver B&W negative film. Set
media (input tab) to B&W negative and then set film type to "generic
color negative" to get the least corrected 16 bit non-linear gamma
file possible. The RGB channel issues you are describing do *not*
apply.

Actually, at least with my Minolta scanner, I found Vuescan infrared
not very effective, and preferred to make my raws via the oem software.

Things have changed a lot with Vuescan over the past year. I now
consider the IR cleaning effective on my Canon FS4000US.
I'd run tests with a dirty neg or slide to see how it works for you.

" i am thinking whether it is possible one
accidently apply IR clearning twice? consider an IR cleaned raw file
was opened in vuescan ( scan from disk mode ) while IR clean option
was again enabled. "

If you're going to do IR cleaning in Vuescan, output 48 bit tiffs,
*not* 64 bit files that have the IR channel. You don't need this
channel after you do cleaning.

 

[Steven Woody]

What I was suggesting was in regards to silver B&W negative film. Set
media (input tab) to B&W negative and then set film type to "generic
color negative" to get the least corrected 16 bit non-linear gamma
file possible. The RGB channel issues you are describing do *not*
apply.

thank you. i also misunderstood your method in B&W neg scanning. now
it's clear. and, do yo know, as a relative question, what channel
( R, G, B ) vuescan will pick up when imput media was set to B&W
negative? or a average of all three channels?

Things have changed a lot with Vuescan over the past year. I now
consider the IR cleaning effective on my Canon FS4000US.
I'd run tests with a dirty neg or slide to see how it works for you.

to my Epson 4870, i found IR cleanning is very effective when set it
as `heavy' mode. in `light' or `medium' mode, the dust will leave
subtle color scars in the scanned image.

" i am thinking whether it is possible one
accidently apply IR clearning twice? consider an IR cleaned raw file
was opened in vuescan ( scan from disk mode ) while IR clean option
was again enabled. "

If you're going to do IR cleaning in Vuescan, output 48 bit tiffs,
*not* 64 bit files that have the IR channel. You don't need this
channel after you do cleaning.

thanks.

 

[Mendel Leisk]

snip

Things have changed a lot with Vuescan over the past year. I now
consider the IR cleaning effective on my Canon FS4000US.
I'd run tests with a dirty neg or slide to see how it works for you.

snip

I might do that, though it's getting a little late in the day for me.
I've finished with my slide collection, with which I used a hybrid
workflow: outputting 16 bit linear files with ICE through my scanner's
OEM software, and then using Vuescan for scan-from-disk type
processing.

I still have a lot of color neg's to do, but have bypassed Vuescan
completely with them so far (just starting), with satisfactory
results: again scanning with OEM with ICE, outputting 16 bit tiff
(regular, not linear), scanning as a "color slide". In other words, no
inversion or rebalance. I found I was able to invert and adust colors
through PS Levels and Curves quite satisfactorily.

Still, I should revisit Vuescan and test its current cleaning, and how
it deals with color negs. Last time I tested cleaning *was* maybe a
year back, and it was a joke. If you had nothing to compare it to, you
might be satisfied. But it was really pathetic compared to OEM ICE
with my scanner. Even that's not perfect, and some follow up is
needed, but it's miles ahead of Vuescan.

Ok, enough ranting, I'll check it out