Question about dye ink

Beemer · Oct 11, 2006

Canon make A3 printers which use pigment ink and also differnet A3 printers
which use dye ink. Is their dye ink a sublimation printer? If not why do
they make both types?

Beemer

Yianni · Oct 12, 2006

Beemer,

I don't know any canon A3 size model which use pigment inks in all colors.
Which model do you refer?
I know only some canon plotters using pigment inks.
Except if there is a confusion because canon printers usually use black
pigment and color dye inks.

Bob Headrick · Oct 12, 2006

Beemer said:
Canon make A3 printers which use pigment ink and also differnet A3
printers
which use dye ink. Is their dye ink a sublimation printer? If not
why do
they make both types?

No, the dye based is just dye based, not dye sub. There are tradeoffs
between pigment ink and dye based inks. Pigments inks can give better
longevity and perhaps waterfastness and can be better for applications
such as outdoor signage. Dye based solutions generally have better
image quality particularly when printing on glossy photo media. Pigment
ink require different servicing, and may require more overhead to
maintain nozzle health.

Basically each has its strengths and weaknesses and which is best
depends on the application. Because of the differences in service
requirements a given printer model will typically be designed to use one
or the other. Some of the HP large format printers have options to use
either dye based or pigment based inks in the same printer.

BTW, the above discussion relates to color printing. Black text
printing is usually done with pigment back ink regardless of the
technology used for color.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

Beemer · Oct 12, 2006

Beemer · Oct 12, 2006

|
| | > Canon make A3 printers which use pigment ink and also differnet A3
| > printers
| > which use dye ink. Is their dye ink a sublimation printer? If not
| > why do
| > they make both types?
|
| No, the dye based is just dye based, not dye sub. There are tradeoffs
| between pigment ink and dye based inks. Pigments inks can give better
| longevity and perhaps waterfastness and can be better for applications
| such as outdoor signage. Dye based solutions generally have better
| image quality particularly when printing on glossy photo media. Pigment
| ink require different servicing, and may require more overhead to
| maintain nozzle health.
|
| Basically each has its strengths and weaknesses and which is best
| depends on the application. Because of the differences in service
| requirements a given printer model will typically be designed to use one
| or the other. Some of the HP large format printers have options to use
| either dye based or pigment based inks in the same printer.
|
| BTW, the above discussion relates to color printing. Black text
| printing is usually done with pigment back ink regardless of the
| technology used for color.
|
| Regards,
| Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
|
|
Bob,

Why would dye not be as satisfactory on matte and other non glossy surfaces?

http://www.photographyblog.com/inde.../canon_pixma_pro9500_and_canon_pixma_pro9000/

regards,

Beemer

Ron · Oct 12, 2006

G'day all. I stand to be corrected, but those 2 canon printers have not been
released, as yet.

Cheers
Ron from Downunder

Beemer · Oct 12, 2006

measekite · Oct 12, 2006

Bob said:
No, the dye based is just dye based, not dye sub. There are tradeoffs
between pigment ink and dye based inks. Pigments inks can give better
longevity and perhaps waterfastness

I would say not perhaps. It does have better waterfastness. Also not
all dye ink is created equal. From a brief test there is a distinct
possibility that Epson dye ink on the 1280 has better waterfast
properties than he BCI 6 ink used in Canon printers.

and can be better for applications such as outdoor signage. Dye based
solutions generally have better image quality particularly when
printing on glossy photo media.

It appears so but I certainly would like to see the same photo printed
on a variety of papers using the same brand of printer but both dye and
pigmented models.

Pigment ink require different servicing, and may require more overhead
to maintain nozzle health.

The clogging and the expense of the inks are concerns.

Bob Headrick · Oct 13, 2006

Why would dye not be as satisfactory on matte and other non glossy
surfaces?

First I should mention that I know nothing of the specifics of the
listed Canon printers, my comments are in general as they apply to
pigment or dye based inks. My comments that dye based were better on
glossy media was not meant to suggest they are not good on matte. To
the contrary, dye inks can provide excellent image quality on either
glossy or matte media. Pigment inks, on the other hand, generally can
be OK to excellent on matte media but are generally less suitable for
glossy media. This is because the pigment inks generally have low
gloss, so when printing on glossy media dark areas will be less glossy
while light or white areas will be glossy. Pigment inks may also be
prone to metamerism where the apparent color changes as the viewing
angle changes. I notice from the Canon site that they have multiple
levels of gray in their system to reduce this effect.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

measekite · Oct 13, 2006

I have been researching questions like this but do not have firm
conclusions yet. That said, I would say based on what I have learned to
date is if you are going to frame your photos behind glass there should
not be a problem but you will lose the texture and appearance of the
matte look. Now if you do not use glass you have a different ball
game. The paper with dye ink is not too water resistant (Epson 1280 dye
ink is somewhat more water resistent than Canon ink) then the photo is
subject to greater risk of fading and damage from the elements. You can
reduce this by using a Krylon 7027 Preserve It Digital Photo
Protectorent but I have not tested this formulation.

To really change the equation you might consider a printer that uses
pigmented ink. You may loose some visual impact and have more clogging
problems with the printer while wasting more ink but you will gain
longevity and better resistance to the elements. Pigmented printers
also do better on many fine art and rag papers but if you place behind
glass you are loosing the beauty of the paper. Pigmented printers do
not do as well with glossy papers. I do not know about papers like
Ilford Pearl. This is not a matte but is also not a semi-gloss either.
It appears more like an eggshell.

Yianni · Oct 13, 2006

I never have heard about pixma pro 9500, it's the only canon pigment ink
desktop printer.

I have the same opinion with Bob Headrick.
Pigments are most water fast and light fast than dye (about 20 times more).
But, you should have in mind that water fast and light fast features depends
on paper too. Pigments are more dull than dyes, and they have about 10% less
vividness. On the other hand they clog faster and much harder.
I suggest pigment inks only when someone needs outdoor prints or high
durability (in light or water/moisture).
Dyes on an average photo glossy paper has a mean life of about 5-20 years.
Some ink/paper combinations give wider life. Prints of dye on plain paper
life is about 1-6 months.

I think that dyes are very good on matte papers, better than pigments. The
only feature dyes suffer is durability. But there are matte papers that give
same durability as photo glossy papers. And for "artist"/"museum" prints,
dyes are better.

Ron · Dec 1, 2006

Dyes have much less life if exposed to prolonged direct sunlight and much
less life again, if the print is mounted without glass protecting it from
various gas sources within the atmosphere. Believe it or not, this
information was given to me by a Canon employee.

Cheers
Ron
(Ink Refiller until I saw the results, after several months)

jasee · Dec 1, 2006

Ron said:
Dyes have much less life if exposed to prolonged direct sunlight and
much less life again, if the print is mounted without glass protecting it
from various gas sources within the atmosphere. Believe
it or not, this information was given to me by a Canon employee.

Dyes are usually soluable in a liquid (usually water). Dyes can be natural,
synthetic or man-made. In textile printing or dyeing dyes are chemical bound
or absorbed within the fibres (generally using heat) and additional
chemicals so it takes a good deal of effort to get them out. Although
natural dyes are generally not light fast or even wash fast, modern
synthetic dyes are designed to be both, particularly on furnishings.AFAIK
dyes are simply laid on top of the coating on the paper, there is no process
involved so it's not surprising they are not fast. Light fastness depends to
a large extent on the dye. Pigments are simply particles of colour which are
generally insoluable in water. Again their chemical composition determines
their light fastness.

(PS I used to teach textile dyeing and printing)

I used to know someone who worked for a company which produced the basic
pigments for (amongst other things) ink cartridges, apparently the profit
made by the sellers of ink cartridges is 100s of thousands of times the cost
of production. Even though, as I know, the cost of some pigments
particularly magenta ones is relatively high.

measekite · Dec 1, 2006

However if you spray the photo with a protectorant then it will have a similar life without having to use glass.

Ron wrote:

Dyes have much less life if exposed to prolonged direct sunlight and much less life again, if the print is mounted without glass protecting it from various gas sources within the atmosphere. Believe it or not, this information was given to me by a Canon employee. Cheers Ron (Ink Refiller until I saw the results, after several months) "Yianni" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:1160750776.711525@athprx03...

I never have heard about pixma pro 9500, it's the only canon pigment ink desktop printer. I have the same opinion with Bob Headrick. Pigments are most water fast and light fast than dye (about 20 times more). But, you should have in mind that water fast and light fast features depends on paper too. Pigments are more dull than dyes, and they have about 10% less vividness. On the other hand they clog faster and much harder. I suggest pigment inks only when someone needs outdoor prints or high durability (in light or water/moisture). Dyes on an average photo glossy paper has a mean life of about 5-20 years. Some ink/paper combinations give wider life. Prints of dye on plain paper life is about 1-6 months. I think that dyes are very good on matte papers, better than pigments. The only feature dyes suffer is durability. But there are matte papers that give same durability as photo glossy papers. And for "artist"/"museum" prints, dyes are better. -- Yianni

Ron · Dec 2, 2006

However, the Canon employee I spoke with stated that the inks for the new canon pro 9000 dye based ink have been reformulated and tested (under simulated conditions) to last 100 years if kept in an album, 30+ years if framed with a glass protecting the photo and in sunlight, 10 years if hung on a wall without being protected by glass.

G'day Measekite. These sprayable protectors sound interesting. Must look into this.

Cheers
Ron
(Ink Refiller until I saw the results, after several months)

Frank · Dec 2, 2006

Ron said:
However, the Canon employee I spoke with stated that the inks for the
new canon pro 9000 dye based ink have been reformulated and tested
(under simulated conditions) to last 100 years if kept in an album, 30+
years if framed with a glass protecting the photo and in sunlight, 10
years if hung on a wall without being protected by glass.

G'day Measekite. These sprayable protectors sound interesting. Must look
into this.

Cheers
Ron
(Ink Refiller until I saw the results, after several months)

Geeze, reading comprehension just now starting to work a'mate?
Months ago I posted info about Krylon® protective spray made especially
for digital photos.
But your mate (lying mate e'is), meashershithead said he'd already used
them and didn't lik'em.
G'day mate!
Frank
(Ink Refiller especially after I saw the results, even years later)

Ron · Dec 2, 2006

G'day Frank. I rarely frequent this group. Too busy shooting weddings and
post processing the images in photoshop. What is with the sarcasm? Do you
manage/run this group? Is this your real life persona? Whatever is bothering
you I hope you can successfully overcome it.

Cheers
Ron (from Downunder - Ink refiller until I saw the results, after several
months)

Frank · Dec 2, 2006

Ron said:
G'day Frank. I rarely frequent this group. Too busy shooting weddings and
post processing the images in photoshop. What is with the sarcasm? Do you
manage/run this group? Is this your real life persona? Whatever is bothering
you I hope you can successfully overcome it.

Cheers
Ron (from Downunder - Ink refiller until I saw the results, after several
months)

No worries mate, just tryin to keep the real truth out there and takin
the fight to buggers and liars like meashershithead.
Frank
(Ink Refiller especially after I saw the results, even years later)

measekite · Dec 2, 2006

Ron said:
However, the Canon employee I spoke with stated that the inks for the
new canon pro 9000 dye based ink have been reformulated and tested
(under simulated conditions) to last 100 years if kept in an album,
30+ years if framed with a glass protecting the photo and in sunlight,
10 years if hung on a wall without being protected by glass.

G'day Measekite. These sprayable protectors sound interesting. Must
look into this.

Try Krylon (mfg Sherwin Williams) "Preserve It" matte protectorant.

measekite · Dec 2, 2006

There are some very sick individuals in this group that are that way if
they do not agree with what you are saying.

Question about dye ink

Beemer

Yianni

Bob Headrick

Beemer

Beemer

Ron

Beemer

measekite

Bob Headrick

measekite

Yianni

Ron

jasee

measekite

Ron

Frank

Ron

Frank

measekite

measekite