PSU Advice

[Cerridwen]

I'm calculating for a new CPU/RAM/board combo, and I need to know whether a
340W Chieftec supply will be sufficient to run the following: -

ASUS P4800C -E Deluxe
1GB OCZ 3500
P4C 3.2 (I can't see that a 3.4 justifies an extra £100). I've been looking
for a 3.2GHz Prescott, but I can't find them anywhere online in the UK.
2xWDC IDE (160 and 200)
Pioneer DVD +/- burner
DVD-ROM
9800 Pro (can't see any reason to upgrade as I'm not a serious /serious/
gamer - I'm a graphics artist)
Audigy 2 Platinum

If not, what should I be budgeting for?

 

[Bubba]

Cerridwen's log on stardate 13 ožu 2004

I'm calculating for a new CPU/RAM/board combo, and I need to know
whether a 340W Chieftec supply will be sufficient to run the
following: -

1GB OCZ 3500

Try to get two moduls, to activate DC.

P4C 3.2 (I can't see that a 3.4 justifies an extra £100). I've been
looking for a 3.2GHz Prescott, but I can't find them anywhere online
in the UK.

I don't whant to be rude, but this is just about bragging. C'mon, you
can do apsolutly everithing as good as this one with ~100£ cheaper 2.4C.

2xWDC IDE (160 and 200)

Must say that i don't get this one? Why two drives with _different_
sizes? Have you considerd any mirroring RAID, since you are graphic
artist?

9800 Pro (can't see any reason to upgrade as I'm not a serious
/serious/ gamer - I'm a graphics artist)

You plan to buy this one, or you have it already? What kinde of graphic
artist?

Audigy 2 Platinum

IIRC, you are a _graphic_ artist, not a sound artist. OB soundcard for
MP3 and games will do.

If not, what should I be budgeting for?

Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and proportionaly
efficient hardware, you should consider taking stronger PSU (personaly,
i'd take Enlight if available) or bigger/better/second monitor.

BTW, you haven't given your budget, nor your primary use of computer, so
it is probably stupid to give any comments, since we don't know anything
relevant.

 

[Cerridwen]

Cerridwen's log on stardate 13 ožu 2004



Try to get two moduls, to activate DC.

OK good point

I don't whant to be rude, but this is just about bragging. C'mon, you
can do apsolutly everithing as good as this one with ~100£ cheaper
2.4C.

Erm, I'm running a 3.06 now, ta very much. I'm not going slower.

Must say that i don't get this one? Why two drives with _different_
sizes? Have you considerd any mirroring RAID, since you are graphic
artist?

Erm, because it's what I already have.

You plan to buy this one, or you have it already? What kinde of
graphic artist?

I already have the card.

IIRC, you are a _graphic_ artist, not a sound artist. OB soundcard for
MP3 and games will do.

I already have the graphics and sound cards.

Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and
proportionaly efficient hardware, you should consider taking stronger
PSU (personaly, i'd take Enlight if available) or
bigger/better/second monitor.

Why would I want a better/second monitor? I have a 17" flat panel.

 

[kony]

Well, from difference you will get from buying cheaper and proportionaly
efficient hardware, you should consider taking stronger PSU (personaly,
i'd take Enlight if available) or bigger/better/second monitor.

Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All are
Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or add/remove
chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the most part only
cosmetic differences.

The 340W would probably work for the described parts but it's somewhat
marginal, a 400W+ would be better. Ignoring the problems I mention in the
next paragraph it's not a cheap/junk unit but it's actual capacity is a
bit lower than optimal for the described system.

I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load resistor
because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching, actually
cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked fine again for
2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that 2nd failed cap and
it's running fine again for several months AFAIK. If it hadn't been for
the caps it would've been a great value (came free-with-case in an Enlight
case) for the total cost but I'd rather have paid a few $ more and never
had to repair it.

Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of consumer
equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are so many power
supplies so much worse that it seems like a median unit, that works fine
but potentially has a defect or two in parts and PCB layout. The OP's
power supply might be near failure already, might be good to open it up
(after leaving unplugged from AC for a few minutes) and see how the caps
are doing before planning a system around it.

 

[Cerridwen]

Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All
are Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or
add/remove chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the
most part only cosmetic differences.

The 340W would probably work for the described parts but it's somewhat
marginal, a 400W+ would be better. Ignoring the problems I mention
in the next paragraph it's not a cheap/junk unit but it's actual
capacity is a bit lower than optimal for the described system.

I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load
resistor because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching,
actually cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked
fine again for 2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that
2nd failed cap and it's running fine again for several months AFAIK.
If it hadn't been for the caps it would've been a great value (came
free-with-case in an Enlight case) for the total cost but I'd rather
have paid a few $ more and never had to repair it.

Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of consumer
equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are so many
power supplies so much worse that it seems like a median unit, that
works fine but potentially has a defect or two in parts and PCB
layout. The OP's power supply might be near failure already, might
be good to open it up (after leaving unplugged from AC for a few
minutes) and see how the caps are doing before planning a system
around it.

Cheers for the advice, Dave, but putting a system together has me nervous
enough without contemplating opening the PSU! It came with a Chieftec Dragon
case I bought about eight months ago.

The bit I really loathe when assembling a new system is attaching the HSF to
the CPU. I have only ever done this once, successfully, and that was with
the screw-in type of HS, rather than the clip on. The clip ons always make
me really nervous as I'm scared of either putting too much load on the chip
when attaching, and therefore risking crushing the die (I know a shim would
solve that issue, but I've never used one - maybe that's my problem - and
I'm not sure how to go about attaching it) or applying too little - or too
much - thermal paste and it burning up at switch on. Or being too cackhanded
with the flathead and scratching the board and breaking a vital connector.

I value your advice (hell, if you told me that jumping off a 200' cliff
would be good for my health, I'd do it!)

I have a Thermaltake copper fan-type heatsink - would that be better than
the one in the box? It's quite heavy so would probably require a shim to
spread the load. Trouble is, I've never seen just a shim for sale on its
own.

Your advice is, as always, most welcome.

Blessed Be

 

[kony]

Cheers for the advice, Dave, but putting a system together has me nervous
enough without contemplating opening the PSU! It came with a Chieftec Dragon
case I bought about eight months ago.

It's really rather easy, a few screws and off comes the top... vented
caps are relatively easy to see. The ones at issue are those right next
to, underneath the wiring harness where it leaves the power supply.
Besides taking the cover off there is no futher mucking around inside
needed, expect perhaps lifting the wires up so you can see underneath...
perfect safe if you've left it unplugged for a few minutes before opening
it.

The bit I really loathe when assembling a new system is attaching the HSF to
the CPU. I have only ever done this once, successfully, and that was with
the screw-in type of HS, rather than the clip on. The clip ons always make
me really nervous as I'm scared of either putting too much load on the chip
when attaching, and therefore risking crushing the die (I know a shim would
solve that issue, but I've never used one - maybe that's my problem - and
I'm not sure how to go about attaching it) or applying too little - or too
much - thermal paste and it burning up at switch on. Or being too cackhanded
with the flathead and scratching the board and breaking a vital connector.

We're talking about a P4, right? The risk of crushing/chipping a P4 is
quite low compared to an Athlon. Well I thought this was for a P4 but
considering what you wrote above it sounds more like an Athlon.

Either way, steady and slow... even pressure across the CPU core and the
right-sized tool for the job. Very thin layer of thermal compound, it's
unlikely you'd apply too little, if it's covering the whole core it's
enough unless the heatsink is VERY crudely finished, in which case you
might consider lapping it with fine-grit, say 400-600, sandpaper (or
larger grit, lower number to start out then switching later would make it
go faster).

I have a Thermaltake copper fan-type heatsink - would that be better than
the one in the box? It's quite heavy so would probably require a shim to
spread the load. Trouble is, I've never seen just a shim for sale on its
own.

It probably is better, providing it has a decent fan on it... they have a
couple with decent fans, though one is very loud, the other is a ribbed
panaflo and pretty quiet... think that's on the "Silent Boost" heatsink.

Shims aren't really necessary, I've never used one myself. Mainly just
have the board out of the case IF that's necessary to see what you're
doing. When clamping down the heatsink don't let the pressure be exerted
on the corner of the core, sort-of lift up and over towards the other tab
(gently) so the force is distributed across the core more evenly. It's
harder to explain than to do it if you have good access to it, not being
cramped by a power supply right above it or memory modules, etc.

 

[Cerridwen]

It's really rather easy, a few screws and off comes the top... vented
caps are relatively easy to see. The ones at issue are those right
next to, underneath the wiring harness where it leaves the power
supply. Besides taking the cover off there is no futher mucking
around inside needed, expect perhaps lifting the wires up so you can
see underneath... perfect safe if you've left it unplugged for a few
minutes before opening it.


We're talking about a P4, right? The risk of crushing/chipping a P4
is quite low compared to an Athlon. Well I thought this was for a P4
but considering what you wrote above it sounds more like an Athlon.

My fault. Up until now, I have had Athlons (the last was a 2800+ Barton
which I've just put up on eBay). I'm switching to Intel mainly for the
'soft' overclocking options they offer (with Bartons it's a hit-and-miss
affair involving a pencil, a steady hand and a lot of patience - and I don't
have any (well, apart from the pencil!))

Either way, steady and slow... even pressure across the CPU core and
the right-sized tool for the job. Very thin layer of thermal
compound, it's unlikely you'd apply too little, if it's covering the
whole core it's enough unless the heatsink is VERY crudely finished,
in which case you might consider lapping it with fine-grit, say
400-600, sandpaper (or larger grit, lower number to start out then
switching later would make it go faster).




It probably is better, providing it has a decent fan on it... they
have a couple with decent fans, though one is very loud, the other is
a ribbed panaflo and pretty quiet... think that's on the "Silent
Boost" heatsink.

That's the critter!

Shims aren't really necessary, I've never used one myself. Mainly
just have the board out of the case IF that's necessary to see what
you're doing. When clamping down the heatsink don't let the
pressure be exerted on the corner of the core, sort-of lift up and
over towards the other tab (gently) so the force is distributed
across the core more evenly. It's harder to explain than to do it if
you have good access to it, not being cramped by a power supply right
above it or memory modules, etc.

Good point. Assemble everything outside the box. It's a decent sized case
(http://www.chieftec.com/products/Workcolor/Dragon.htm - the green one
though, sadly, it didn't come with the perspex panelled door). Standard
fare - removable drive bay container, rails for opticals.

If P4s are easier to install than Athlons, I'll go for it (just need the
funds now!). If I get too nervous, the son of one of Dad's golfing buddies
is the senior tech at the local Computacenter (though if they're anything
like PC World, that doesn't count for much; the PC World techs no nothing
about the products they sell - the last moron I spoke to didn't know the
difference between a 478 and a Socket A!)

Ta muchly matey!

Cerri

 

[Will Sutton]

I'm calculating for a new CPU/RAM/board combo, and I need to know whether a
340W Chieftec supply will be sufficient to run the following: -

ASUS P4800C -E Deluxe
1GB OCZ 3500
P4C 3.2 (I can't see that a 3.4 justifies an extra £100). I've been looking
for a 3.2GHz Prescott, but I can't find them anywhere online in the UK.
2xWDC IDE (160 and 200)
Pioneer DVD +/- burner
DVD-ROM
9800 Pro (can't see any reason to upgrade as I'm not a serious /serious/
gamer - I'm a graphics artist)
Audigy 2 Platinum

If not, what should I be budgeting for?

I wouldn't go less then 450w

 

[Bubba]

Cerridwen's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004

/zip

Gee, it seems that i didn't get your point ... Ehh, sorry 'bout that ...

Why would I want a better/second monitor? I have a 17" flat panel.

Graphic artist on 17"? And you ask me why would you whatn better/second
monitor?

 

[Bubba]

kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004

Enlight and Chieftec are same power supply, as is Thermaltake. All
are Sirtec relabels. They change the case color, fan brand or
add/remove chrome grill and a second fan, cable sleeving, but for the
most part only cosmetic differences.

Perhaps. Not that i've seen any Sirtec PSU, however, i have seen lot of
Enlights in many brands, including redundant PSUs. With Chieftec, i've
had some problems, 300W and 360W models, IIRC.

I had an Enlight 340W that failed, vented the cap next to a load
resistor because the two parts were too close on the PCB, touching,
actually cemented together. I replaced the failed cap and it worked
fine again for 2/3 of a year then another cap failed... replaced that
2nd failed cap and it's running fine again for several months AFAIK.
If it hadn't been for the caps it would've been a great value (came
free-with-case in an Enlight case) for the total cost but I'd rather
have paid a few $ more and never had to repair it.

Aaaa, free-with-case PSUs. Ofcours, i had doesns of dead Antec Smart
Powers that came with cases. It hasn't lowerd Antec in my eyes as a good
PSU. But, you had only one dead Enlight. I had over 30 dead Chieftecs.
Dunno, bad series, lousy distributer, however, that's IME.

Point being, the PSU is by the standards of any other type of
consumer equipment, junk, but by power supplies standards there are
so many power supplies so much worse that it seems like a median
unit, that works fine but potentially has a defect or two in parts
and PCB layout. The OP's power supply might be near failure already,
might be good to open it up (after leaving unplugged from AC for a
few minutes) and see how the caps are doing before planning a system
around it.

I wouldn't be so sceptical about PSUs integritiy, but good point if you
whant to make shure everithyng is ok.

 

[kony]

kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004


Perhaps. Not that i've seen any Sirtec PSU, however, i have seen lot of
Enlights in many brands, including redundant PSUs. With Chieftec, i've
had some problems, 300W and 360W models, IIRC.

Their 300W is a notch below what I'd accept for any system regardless of
how much power it needs, but the 340W is a fair build, somewhat similar
enough to an Antec 300W or SL350 but perhaps slightly smaller transformer,
lower peak wattage than the Sl350... never had the two open side-by-side
so I could be slightly off.

Aaaa, free-with-case PSUs. Ofcours, i had doesns of dead Antec Smart
Powers that came with cases. It hasn't lowerd Antec in my eyes as a good
PSU. But, you had only one dead Enlight. I had over 30 dead Chieftecs.
Dunno, bad series, lousy distributer, however, that's IME.

How did they die? That's my concern. One thing I've never liked about
that series is the cheaper, often sleeve-bearing, SuperRed fan. I only
have two PSU models right now with sleeve-bearing fans... one is Fortron
with a 120mm at very low RPM, and the other with a Liteon Server PSU (that
actually came with a BB Nidec) but was replaced for noise issues, but it
immediately shuts itself off if the fan stops.

From the 1st failure I had, attributable to PCB layout, I'm pretty
confident that many of that design had the same failure mode, it clearly
was misdesigned, not just a capacitor defect/quality type issue.

I wouldn't be so sceptical about PSUs integritiy, but good point if you
whant to make shure everithyng is ok.

Well the warranty on a power supply means very little to me, I even open
up new units to verify there isn't anything amiss... every now and then I
do spot something, like a fan barely plugged in or once even a capacitor
installed backwards that made a persistent high-pitched noise even though
the power supply "seemed" to be working fine at the time. Also after a
unit's been used for a while, before employing it long-term, it doesn't
hurt to clean it out.

Then there's the manufacturers with multiple units that "seem" alike but
aren't. For example, some Channel Well units are pretty good, were
relabeled by Antec, then Channel Well also makes a low-end unit bearing a
label that looks VERY similar, with identical specs too, but is quite
different, poorly built and not worth it's rating. One could tell by the
weight of the units but opening it up is much more revealing.

I guess the bottom line is that I could trust a manufacturer, but why,
when the top comes off?

 

[Bubba]

kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004

How did they die? That's my concern.

They just ... died. No big bang, no splash, no burnt smel. Ehh, they
never died while working. Basicly, people turned on theyr computer, and
got nothing.

From the 1st failure I had, attributable to PCB layout, I'm pretty
confident that many of that design had the same failure mode, it
clearly was misdesigned, not just a capacitor defect/quality type
issue.

95% of PSUs are made by same layouf, wiht few modifications depending
on desireble output power/current. So, yes, there are designers
mistakes, but rarely on the PCB itself. Everithing is producet in 3-4
Chines factories (a lot of little cooperants, simmilar to
car-indursty). Well known brands don't even have their own production!

I'll give you an example. I doubt you have ever heard for MS PSUs, but
they are el-cheapo low end class PSUs. I had MS "550W", and it has
designers mistake that input EMI filter is in contact with heatsinks
for output voltages and temperature regulators, wich results 220V on
PSU output. So i secured it, and was suprised when I saw that layout is
simmilar to Vantec 420W, and MS PSU is native for Croatia.

Well the warranty on a power supply means very little to me, I even
open up new units to verify there isn't anything amiss... every now
and then I do spot something, like a fan barely plugged in or once
even a capacitor installed backwards that made a persistent
high-pitched noise even though the power supply "seemed" to be
working fine at the time.

Instaled backwards? Electrolyt capacitors?

Also after a unit's been used for a while, before employing it
long-term, it doesn't hurt to clean it out.
Apsolutly.

I guess the bottom line is that I could trust a manufacturer, but
why, when the top comes off?

IMO and IME, i had more problems with distributers than with manufacturers
themself. Guy bought Gainwards graphic card, and distributer gave him 1
year warranty. Card started showing few artefacts (it was working) few
months after warranty expired, distributer doesn't whant to hear anything
about replacing the card, even though Gainward gives 3 years. He mails
Gainward and gets a new card without a problem. Epox, Gigabyte,3D Labs,
same thing ... What i whant to say, there is no hardware that doesn't
dies. But when it dies, i whatn to have a good support, and then not have
any additional problems with replacing it.

 

[kony]

kony's log on stardate 14 ožu 2004


They just ... died. No big bang, no splash, no burnt smel. Ehh, they
never died while working. Basicly, people turned on theyr computer, and
got nothing.

Ok, but that wasn't exactly what I was getting at, that if they all died
there migh've been a "most common" failure mode.

95% of PSUs are made by same layouf, wiht few modifications depending
on desireble output power/current. So, yes, there are designers
mistakes, but rarely on the PCB itself. Everithing is producet in 3-4
Chines factories (a lot of little cooperants, simmilar to
car-indursty). Well known brands don't even have their own production!

I'll give you an example. I doubt you have ever heard for MS PSUs, but
they are el-cheapo low end class PSUs. I had MS "550W", and it has
designers mistake that input EMI filter is in contact with heatsinks
for output voltages and temperature regulators, wich results 220V on
PSU output. So i secured it, and was suprised when I saw that layout is
simmilar to Vantec 420W, and MS PSU is native for Croatia.

Similar layout yes, but not nearly the same unless it was simply the same
design made in a different factory. Each of the major manufacturers'
designs are quite different, enough so that I can look at the majority of
the PCBs with components and know who made it (or at least who's design
layout they copied). A few mm here or there can make all the difference
in component spacing, and there's vastly different layouts on some, for
example some now have the entire hi-side circuitry directly behind the AC
receptacle instead of the opposite side... essentially they more-or-less
mirror-imaged the PCB as much as possible. The off-brands and low-end I'm
not quite as familiar with though, as I don't buy them and generally don't
try to repair them either unless it's a proprietary form-factor and a
replacement isn't available or is very costly.

Instaled backwards? Electrolyt capacitors?

Yes. I would've though it would explode but I guess it wasn't very well
formed yet and reversed as gracefully as possible, only created a
high-pitched squeal. At the time I was in a rush so I didn't trace the
circuit or take any readings, just grabbed a fresh cap of same values and
swapped it in, squealing sound was gone. It was one of a lot of about a
dozen PSU i'd bought together, none of the others had any problems.

IMO and IME, i had more problems with distributers than with manufacturers
themself. Guy bought Gainwards graphic card, and distributer gave him 1
year warranty. Card started showing few artefacts (it was working) few
months after warranty expired, distributer doesn't whant to hear anything
about replacing the card, even though Gainward gives 3 years. He mails
Gainward and gets a new card without a problem. Epox, Gigabyte,3D Labs,
same thing ... What i whant to say, there is no hardware that doesn't
dies. But when it dies, i whatn to have a good support, and then not have
any additional problems with replacing it.

That wasn't all that bad though, to get a 1 year warranty from a
distributer is pretty good even if they're strict about it's expiration
date.

 

[larrymoencurly]

Then there's the manufacturers with multiple units that
"seem" alike but aren't. For example, some Channel Well
units are pretty good, were relabeled by Antec, then
Channel Well also makes a low-end unit bearing a label
that looks VERY similar, with identical specs too, but
is quite different, poorly built and not worth it's rating.

Only Channel Wells with model numbers containing an "A" or "B" near
the end are good . IOW a Channel Well CWT-300BS would be just like a
300W Antec SmartPower or Solution Series, while a CWT-430AD would be
like a 430W Antec TruePower. "S" means "single fan", "D" means "dual
fan", and some models also have a "P", i.e., CWT-480ADP, to indicate
"power factor corrected".

 

[DaveW]

430 Watt Antec, minimum.

 

[kony]

Only Channel Wells with model numbers containing an "A" or "B" near
the end are good . IOW a Channel Well CWT-300BS would be just like a
300W Antec SmartPower or Solution Series, while a CWT-430AD would be
like a 430W Antec TruePower. "S" means "single fan", "D" means "dual
fan", and some models also have a "P", i.e., CWT-480ADP, to indicate
"power factor corrected".

Well I have a couple here that don't follow that naming convention....

CWT-420ATX-12V, C2250 (number in bottom-right corner of label) is a
dual-fan unit, not AFPC, junk.

CWT-420ATX-12V, C1133-2 Rev2, single fan, pretty good.

The sitckers on both look similar, even the same "Pentium IV" oval blue
sticker, but after taking a second look, while the 12V, 5V, and 3V amps
have same rating, the junk unit specs 0.5A for -5V, -12V, and 2.0A for
5VSB. The better unit specs 1.0A for -5V, -12V, and 3.0A for 5VSB.