Profiling C-41

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam Carleton
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Sam Carleton

I have a need to profile C-41. I am doing a church photo
directory shoot where the lighting is the same for every picture.
I have a ColorChecker card and I bought Digit Light & Color's
(DLC) Profile Mechanic Scanner to create the profile. I am not
happy with the end result which can be seen here:

<http://sports.miltonstreet.com/profiles/default.html>

As you can tell, the color looks great, the whites are white and
the blacks are black. The problem is too much contrast. I believe
the image should look more along the lines of the third image. I
am under the impression that what I am getting is an accurate
profile; it just isn't what I am looking for from a profile.

I have been corresponding with someone at DLC about this whole
issue via their message board and it seems the person replying
"don't think it is worth it to pursue this any further". I
disagree with this person, especially since I discovered
PictoColor Corporation's InCamera Plug-in for Adobe Photoshop.

<http://www.picto.com/incamera/incameradetailsnew.htm>

I see that the InCamera Plug-in has a feature to "edit" a profile.
I am under the impression that this edit feature of InCamera is
effectively the same thing as taking the image, assigning the
profile and then adjusting the image in what ever way the original
edit adjusted the image. In other words if I created an action in
Photoshop to adjust the contrast to where I wanted it after
applying the profile, I would get the same effect as if I had
"edited" the profile.

Is my theory correct? If not does anyone know how well the
InCamera Plug-in works for profiling C-41?

Sam
 
I have a need to profile C-41. I am doing a church photo
directory shoot where the lighting is the same for every picture.
I have a ColorChecker card and I bought Digit Light & Color's
(DLC) Profile Mechanic Scanner to create the profile. I am not
happy with the end result which can be seen here:

<http://sports.miltonstreet.com/profiles/default.html>

As you can tell, the color looks great, the whites are white and
the blacks are black. The problem is too much contrast. I believe
the image should look more along the lines of the third image. I
am under the impression that what I am getting is an accurate
profile; it just isn't what I am looking for from a profile.

I have been corresponding with someone at DLC about this whole
issue via their message board and it seems the person replying
"don't think it is worth it to pursue this any further".
Click to expand...

I got what I believe to be the final word on this issue from Digit
LIght & Color. Here is what he said:

-:> By all means if you find a product that is designed to do what
-:> you want go ahead and use it. All I have been trying to tell
-:> you is the PM was not designed to profile color negative film
-:> and there is no simple work-around to make it work well.

By day I am a software developer, only a photography by night.
This attitude of "tuff, deal with it" doesn't not sit well with
me. For anyone considering buying Digit LIght & Color, be
fore warned that they might not care about your needs. I would
have, too late now, been happy with something along the lines of:

"That is an interesting idea and a feature requrest we will take
note of, it is not planed for the next release, but time will
tell."

I would be content to wait and see what they come up with. But
they have lost a customer and gained someone that will speak out
about the negative experence when asked.

Sam Carleton
 
By day I am a software developer, only a photography by night.
This attitude of "tuff, deal with it" doesn't not sit well with
me. For anyone considering buying Digit LIght & Color, be
fore warned that they might not care about your needs. I would
have, too late now, been happy with something along the lines of:

"That is an interesting idea and a feature requrest we will take
note of, it is not planed for the next release, but time will
tell."

I would be content to wait and see what they come up with. But
they have lost a customer and gained someone that will speak out
about the negative experence when asked.
Click to expand...

Directly from the DLC web site under Profile Mechanic Scanner:

A wide variety of industry-standard targets may be used, to support
virtually any device. Digital Light & Color offers a line of Wolf
Faust targets imported from Germany. The line includes: • IT8
Reflective target for flatbed scanners •Large format (A4) reflective
target for digital cameras• Target bundle: includes three 35mm
transparency targets for Ektachrome, and Fuji
Velvia/Provia/Astia/Sensia emulsions plus a reflective target for
flatbed scanners.

Nowhere does it say you can use this for C41. You should have read the
product description before purchasing it. You are expecting them to
provide a service you have not paid for. Perhaps you didn't understand
what the information was telling you. If so, you should have asked
first.

Caveat Emptor.

I have no connection with DLC, nor do I even use their products (I
prefer Gretag MacBeth).
 
Directly from the DLC web site under Profile Mechanic Scanner:

A wide variety of industry-standard targets may be used, to support
virtually any device. Digital Light & Color offers a line of Wolf
Faust targets imported from Germany. The line includes: • IT8
Reflective target for flatbed scanners •Large format (A4) reflective
target for digital cameras• Target bundle: includes three 35mm
transparency targets for Ektachrome, and Fuji
Velvia/Provia/Astia/Sensia emulsions plus a reflective target for
flatbed scanners.

Nowhere does it say you can use this for C41. You should have read the
product description before purchasing it. You are expecting them to
provide a service you have not paid for. Perhaps you didn't understand
what the information was telling you. If so, you should have asked
first.
Click to expand...

It really doesn't have anything to do with what the product does
or does not do. I am not even asking for the product to do what I
want it to do. Did you read what would have made me happy? I was
trying to be nice in my previous posting, but the bottom line is:
the tone I got from their response was "F-Off, we do not care
about YOUR needs"

I am not a sales guru, but a software developer, like I stated
earlier. But what I do know about sales is that you are not going
to get far in business if you tell your customers, no matter how
far out a request, to F-Off. And to top it off, to go use a
competitors product! That is simply bad business. Not only am I
not ever going to buy another product from them, I will make sure
that folks know the attitude they took with me so that others
understand that this company does NOT care about their customer.

Again, this is NOT about what the product does or does not do, nor
what the web site does. This is solely about HOW THEY TREAT THEIR
CUSTOMERS!

Sam
 
It really doesn't have anything to do with what the product does
or does not do.
Click to expand...

Then why did you say in your first post:

"I have a need to profile C-41. I am doing a church photo
directory shoot where the lighting is the same for every picture.
I have a ColorChecker card and I bought Digit Light & Color's
(DLC) Profile Mechanic Scanner to create the profile. "
I am not even asking for the product to do what I
want it to do.
Click to expand...

See the quote of what you said above.
Did you read what would have made me happy? I was
trying to be nice in my previous posting, but the bottom line is:
the tone I got from their response was "F-Off, we do not care
about YOUR needs"
Click to expand...

No, what they said, if you posted it accurately, is that you should a
product which is suitable to your requirements.

Again, this is NOT about what the product does or does not do, nor
what the web site does. This is solely about HOW THEY TREAT THEIR
CUSTOMERS!
Click to expand...

But it's not. I've already quoted what you said above.

You bought a product which doesn't do what you want it to do, and it
quite clearly says on the web site, that it won't do what you want it
to do. Then you complain when they make the not unreasonable
suggestion that you should consider purchasing a product which *does*
do what you want it to do.
 
Then why did you say in your first post:

"I have a need to profile C-41. I am doing a church photo
directory shoot where the lighting is the same for every
picture. I have a ColorChecker card and I bought Digit Light &
Color's (DLC) Profile Mechanic Scanner to create the profile. "
Click to expand...

That one is easy to answer. I did not accurately explain the
order of events. Let me try again...

1: First I buy my Nikon Coolscan 5000 scanner this spring.
2: In June I buy the profiling software to profile slide film.
3: This fall the church shoot comes up and I see a new opportunity
to use the profiling software to profile C-41.

When I bought the software I intended to profile slide film with
it, it was only later that profiling C-41 came about. Again, the
way the company handles their customers is less then ideal, in my
opinion.

Sam
 
1: First I buy my Nikon Coolscan 5000 scanner this spring.
2: In June I buy the profiling software to profile slide film.
3: This fall the church shoot comes up and I see a new opportunity
to use the profiling software to profile C-41.

When I bought the software I intended to profile slide film with
it, it was only later that profiling C-41 came about. Again, the
way the company handles their customers is less then ideal, in my
opinion.
Click to expand...

Did anyone ever suggest it would be possible to profile negative film
at all?
Who? where? And how were they to go about it?
One specific roll of film, yes, but film in general? I sincerely doubt
it.

regards, wim
 
wim wiskerke said:
Did anyone ever suggest it would be possible to profile negative film
at all?
Click to expand...

Generally speaking, no.
One specific roll of film, yes, but film in general? I sincerely doubt
it.
Click to expand...

But that's exactly what he wants to do. One specific batch of film und
the same lighting conditions.
I just don't understand why it shouldn't be possible to adjust the
gamma of the colour corrected scan, which he finds is too dark, to a
more pleasant brightness.

regards
Markus
 
Generally speaking, no.


But that's exactly what he wants to do. One specific batch of film und
the same lighting conditions.
Click to expand...

Hmm 1 film yes. 1 batch? I doubt it. With slide film one bought boxes
from one batch to be sure of one filtering. With negative film even
films from one batch were always all over the place because of the C41
process being to instable. (Even with Kodak Q-lab calibration.)
I just don't understand why it shouldn't be possible to adjust the
gamma of the colour corrected scan, which he finds is too dark, to a
more pleasant brightness.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you can not transfer the profile for one film to
the next. The way to go in conventional photography has always been to
include a target in one of the frames or in the very frame in case of
LF. Usually Kodak Q13, because all lithographers were familiar with
it. Sometimes Macbeth targets were used.

So to use it after you have shot a film is impossible.

Now what I do not understand is: this is all in the manual.
Even online:
http://www.picto.com/UserGuides/inCamera31/AboutCharts.html#ColorNeg
what is the confusion about?

Even if you had no clue about negative film it explains everything in
a sentence or two.

Most people and most labs now rely on evalutive software to get
exposure right. Afterwards.
For perfect results one relied on a pro lab that printed by hand. Now
that is: finetune each frame by hand in Photoshop.
I find that a good scan software like NikonScan or Vuescan or
Silverfast will produce just the results the OP is looking for.
Profiling in this case will be no more than correcting for the color
of the negative mask.

regards, wim
 
Sam Carleton said:
I have a need to profile C-41.
Click to expand...

I've tried to do it. There are several problems to work around. First
of all there is no way to get an IT8-target on your negative film. The
colors on negative film (or at least the orange mask) depend on
development.

You have to shoot a target. This gives a new problem: The dynamic range
of color negative film is far higher than the dynamic range of a paper
target.

You can do exposure bracketing and get a profile for the shadows, a
profile for the mid tones and one for the highlights. If thats what you
need, you will have to clip the histogram before you apply any one
profile.

One idea I didn't test until now is to shoot a slide IT8 target. This
should cover more dynamic range.

If you need the whole dynamic range, you will have to determine your
own correction curves. I've done this for Fuji Reala and it works quite
well. I can use up to 14 f-stops from this film. You'll find the draft
for a tutorial (all text, no images) on my pages:
http://www.erik-krause.de/tutorial/part1.htm
http://www.erik-krause.de/tutorial/part2.htm
http://www.erik-krause.de/tutorial/part3.htm
However, this technique corrects for color shifts only, not for
contrast...
 
Very interesting ... However

In Part 3, Step 3 you say
"With the exception of the first item, all steps can be executed within the
Excel worksheet CN_Curve.xls, which can be downloaded from
http://www.erik-krause.de/tutorial/CN_Curve.zip (350kB)"

I cannot find any way to download this zip file ... and get the IE "Cannot
Find ..." error message.
 
Im Posting von RSD99 said:
"With the exception of the first item, all steps can be executed within the
Excel worksheet CN_Curve.xls, which can be downloaded from
http://www.erik-krause.de/tutorial/CN_Curve.zip (350kB)"

I cannot find any way to download this zip file ... and get the IE "Cannot
Find ..." error message.
Click to expand...

It's there (just tried, both with IE and Opera). The name is case
sensitive.

Well, I should finish the tutorial and make proper HTML with links, but
it's lots of work and I haven't got the time at the moment...
 
Just tried it again ... same results.

I've had this "problem" with several web download URLs since "upgrading" to
IE v6 with the Micro$cum "Security Upgrade" this last spring. My Firewall
(Zone Alarm, rebadged by CA) shows that there is a sporadic stream of
incoming bits for about a minute, then the generic IE "Cannot Open Web
Page" error message is displayed. This happens even if I turn off the
firewall .... so it must be in the browser.

I guess I've been hosed by Micro$crew ... AGAIN. Probably some setting that
M$ changed ... somewhere ... that is blocking the download from your site
.... and a couple of others that have some interesting graphics "stuff" ...
such as http://plugin.artdesign.ru/

Thanks for the info ... I'll play with IE's option settings again
 
RSD99 said:
I guess I've been hosed by Micro$crew ... AGAIN. Probably some setting that
M$ changed ... somewhere ... that is blocking the download from your site
... and a couple of others that have some interesting graphics "stuff" ...
such as http://plugin.artdesign.ru/
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info ... I'll play with IE's option settings again
Click to expand...

....use Firefox instead...

....or mail me directly. I'll send it to you by mail.
 
"Erik Krause" posted:
"...
....use Firefox instead...

....or mail me directly. I'll send it to you by mail.
...."

Firefox ... I'm just about "ready" to do that. I've stuck with Internet
Explorer and Outlook Express ...in spite of being somewhat anti-M$ ...
because they have not given me any trouble, and OE allows me to set up
several NNTP servers without "jumping through a bunch of hoops." Now that
IE and OE are starting to give me "problems" ... they just might be
history. More and more I'm being forced to become a fan of "Open Source"
.... I switched from M$ Orifice to Sun Office/OpenOffice this spring, and
just may take the Firefox jump before the end of the year.

Thanks for the offer of emailing the file. I have figured out how to
download it, and several other files on several other servers that IE/OE
stumbled on, using an old copy of a web archiving program named WebCopier.

Thanks again.
 
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