problems with atapi (?) IDE controller (?) and cd-r and dvd operation

  • Thread starter Thread starter albert
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A

albert

Over the last 6 weeks my PC has been acting strangely. I am guessing that
this is a system problem (not software, OS, etc.) but I am only guessing --
any advice will be much appreciated.

The machine is as follows -- Windows XP, P III, 640 M RAM, two HDs (primary
IDE, master and slave), a CDRW and DVD (secondary IDE, master and slave).

About 6 weeks ago, the slave HD lost its partition (CMOS knew it was there
and correctly identified it, but Windows couldn't see it). I have no idea
why this happened (the drive is healthy, according to SMART). I
successfully retrieved the missing partition with a program called
Bootmaster Plus -- and the slave HD has functioned happily since then.

Then about a week ago the CDRW began to look for disks when it was empty.
Within days, another problem occured -- sometimes, the CDRW and/or would
disappear -- either at bootup, or some time after bootup. The mobo is about
3 years old. The CMOS battery is original. The two drives are located on
the secondary IDE channel (master and slave). When the two drives do not
disappear, they function perfectly.

I have fully updated Norton AV and regularly scan the machine. I use Zone
Alarm, Adaware and Spybot -- and the machine is clean of any rogue programs
AFAIK.

I have checked all connections and reseated them, then changed cables, but,
unfortuately, with no change in behavior.

Is it likely that my mobo dying, or perhaps its IDE controller, or .......?

Any ideas will be gratefully accepting.

TIA
albert

Below are excerpts from the Windows Computer Mgt. logs. The following
errors are repeatedly occurring:

==================================
Event Type: Error
Event Source: atapi
Event Category: None
Event ID: 9
Date: 7/25/2004
Time: 10:24:40 AM
User: N/A
Computer: MAINBOY
Description:
The device, \Device\Ide\IdePort1, did not respond within the timeout period.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
Data:
0000: 0f 00 10 00 01 00 64 00 ......d.
0008: 00 00 00 00 09 00 04 c0 .......À
0010: 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
0018: 93 09 00 00 00 00 00 00 ".......
0020: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
0028: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
0030: 00 00 00 00 07 00 00 00 ........
====================================

And this (Windows thinks it is a "success" -- but there the CDRW was empty
when Windows reported success):

Event Type: Information
Event Source: Service Control Manager
Event Category: None
Event ID: 7035
Date: 7/25/2004
Time: 10:26:44 AM
User: NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM
Computer: MAINBOY
Description:
The IMAPI CD-Burning COM Service service was successfully sent a start
control.
====================================

And this is what happens when the drives disappear completely from the
system:

ERROR

Event Type: Error
Event Source: PlugPlayManager
Event Category: None
Event ID: 12
Date: 7/25/2004
Time: 10:28:01 AM
User: N/A
Computer: MAINBOY
Description:
The device 'IDE-CD R/RW 8x4x32'
(IDE\CdRomIDE-CD_R/RW_8x4x32_______________________1.5____\5634324f323044393
04f313538332020_0_0_0_0) disappeared from the system without first being
prepared for removal.

and the error for the DVD:

Event Type: Error
Event Source: PlugPlayManager
Event Category: None
Event ID: 12
Date: 7/25/2004
Time: 10:28:02 AM
User: N/A
Computer: MAINBOY
Description:
The device 'PIONEER DVD-ROM DVD-115'
(IDE\CdRomPIONEER_DVD-ROM_DVD-115_________________1.11____\5&35bcaee8&0&0.1.
0) disappeared from the system without first being prepared for removal.

======================================
 
Sounds to me like its PSU related. What make/model and rating do you
currently use and has it been in place the life of the machine (ie about 3
years old)? Do you have another PSU that you could swap over for a trial
period to see how that goes? PSUs are right up there with Hard drives as the
most common cause of PC hardware related failures. If your mobo has any
hardware monitoring in the BIOS (or in windows via a utility), what are the
different rail voltages like (values and stability - particularly under
changing load eg inserting a CDROM into a drive)?

Has all your important data been fully backed up away from either of those
HDDs eg on CDROM - if not, now would be a good time do so just in case you
do need to reinstall from scratch.

Paul
 
This looks like the CMOS Battery is dead. First thing is first. Replace
the CMOS battery.

The next would be to make sure ALL devices priorties are set correctly.
Make sure the jumpers are on correctly. Never have 2 masters on 1
controller. Never have a cdrom as a master on a controller that has a
hardrive.

Secondly if that doesn't work, replace the IDE Controller and then try.

But this definetly sounds like the cmos battery is dead.
 
I strongly disagree - a dead/flat CMOS battery presents additional different
symptoms such as the time and date details being lost when the computer is
powered off for a while as well as checksum errors typically popping up on
post/boot. All the other "priorities" are unchanged from when it was working
fine so are unlikely to be contributing factors (although they are all good
general pointers). The OP never mentioned anything about changing any
jumpers since it was all working fine. The OP mentioned nothing about a
separate IDE controller so how are you supposed to "replace the IDE
Controller" when its integrated into the motherboard (as is the case with
the vast majority of PCs)? After 3 years its likely that the battery is
getting a bit long in the tooth and it probably wouldn't hurt to change it
given that they're cheap but its not likely to be the cause given the
precise symptoms. If the CMOS still recognises the drive "partition" (which
the OP stated was the case), it won't be the battery. Strictly speaking
though, the CMOS doesn't recognise the partition as such but the actual
hardware - ie it should still see a drive without a partition on it. If the
CDRW is recognised at boot, a low battery will NOT cause it to be lost
during a windows session as the PSU takes over powering the mobo (and IDE
controller) once up and running - hence my strong suspicions about the PSU.

More info/a reply is needed from the OP before this can progress.

Paul
 
Replaced the CMOS battery today -- but the same error pattern continues.
Ouch. All the other settings you've suggested are correct. The IDE
controller is integrated into the mobo. So that's a no go.

If you have any other suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them.

Thanks for your help

albert
 
Paul,

Checking voltages and such is beyond my current knowledge, abilities (and
desires). Fortunately, all my data is backed up. Thanks for your advice.

albert
 
Wait. What do you mean the IDE controller is intergrated into the mobo?
There is no such thing like that. A IDE Controller is the cable that
goes from the IDE Slot that is intergrated on the motherboard to Storage
Devices.

You should replace the controller since cmos battery isn't the issue.
Keep us posted on what happens after you replace the controller. Good Luck
 
Albert,

How you check your rail voltages will depend on the make and model of
motherboard installed in your machine - do you know this information? Is it
a brand name machine such as a Dell or HP etc. What is written on the
motherboard or any manual you have with the computer. The PSU (or Power
Supply Unit) will also have a label on it with make and model details.
Checking voltages generally involves going into the BIOS settings on boot or
installing a small utility (software) provided for free by the motherboard
manufacturer e.g. Asustek (Asus) have one called probe. You should not need
to go poking around with a voltmeter inside the machine (although that is an
option for those experienced and knowledgeable enough - with the desire).

If you're not confident to go there yourself regarding the PSU replacement
suggestion (or don't have a suitable spare), I suggest you take the PC along
to a computer shop or someone who is because a dodgy/dying PSU can cause
further damage to component parts - best to resolve it right away! I'm
qualified and experienced as a computer tech - you'll need to trust me on
this but I'm over 90% sure the PSU is to blame! If you want to replace the
IDE controller (which I'm certain you will have no desire to do), then you
need to be good at soldering surface mount components because its a chip on
the motherboard! The bit Chamander is referring to is called the drive cable
and this is unlikely to be the cause if the problem started occurring
without you having disturbed the cables before hand - think about it, both
the hard drive and CDRW drives were affected and if they're on different
channels then different cables are involved what are the chances both cables
have simultaneously failed after 3 years?

It's great that all your important data is backed up (away from the Hard
disk drive) - an excellent start! What do you say -are you going to look
into the state of the PSU right away or are my words falling on deaf ears...
(blind eyes)? I don't mean to come across pushy however its very important
this is looked at quickly to prevent any further damage.

Paul
 
Paul,

I do, most certainly, appreciate your kind help (and "pushy"?? -- nah, I
don't think so at all. "Generous" might be closer to mark).

The data cables have all been reseated and then replaced, and the CMOS
battery is new as of today -- all result in no change in the problem
behavior.

The PC is an HP. It has a propietary mobo, manufactured by ASUS for HP
(model # CUV-NT). As luck would have it, or rather preparation, I do have
Asus' probe software on my machine. Asus' site provides no details on my
mobo, nor does HP save for a schematic showing where plugs, battery, etc are
located, so I don't think that Probe can read my PSU fan speed (initially,
at boot up, the fan was still -- and Probe read "0". Now the fan has kicked
in, but Probe still reads "0".), but I think everything else in the utility
seems to work.

I am not sure what you mean by "rail" voltages (maybe they form a "rail"
pattern on the utility's graph??). In any case, Probe thinks they are OK
(summary figures are
+12V = 11.85;
+5V = 5.107;
+3.3V = 3.408;
VCore = 1.728

The 12V, 5V and 3.3V graph lines do show some small variations, as does a
history I am currently running but nothing remotely approaching +/-10%
(which appears to be within what Probe defaults to accepting as OK).
Rather, the variations are more on the order of 0.01 % or less. It doesn't
look to me like the utility thinks anything is weird about the power supply,
or, for that matter, anything else it can look at.

I have also posted over in microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (similar text
message) hoping there might be some help there. All the trouble, according
to Windows computer logs, seems to be coming from IMAPI, System Resource
Mgt, and IDE stuff (more stuff I only understand the bare outlines of).

I think my next step (tomorrow, probably), is to check every cable
connection within the box, and every card and its seating. If that doesn't
help....... well, I am not sure what next...... (maybe a new box, mobo, PSU
?, maybe a ball peen hammer)

thanks, again for your help.

albert
 
OK, that's good useful info. The PSU will likely be HP provided as well then
and from experience (we had a couple of HP machines where I last worked) -
they're not exactly well endowed with spare power for a fully loaded system
such as yours (both IDE channels fully loaded up). Wouldn't you know it,
*both* the HP Brio Celerons repeatedly suffered from "disappearing drive
syndrome" and were difficult to fix - we changed everything OTHER THAN the
PSUs on reflection - HDDs, Mobos, cables - cant remember why we didn't try
different PSUs it seems such an obvious thing to look at on reflection (or
your hammer suggestion ;-) .....

Your understanding of why they're called "rail" voltages is spot on - i.e.
all the graph history lines should ideally be straight and parallel.
Although Probe is a great utility, the fact it doesn't show any significant
deviance in any of the rails doesn't mean there isn't a problem, it only
"polls" those voltages every so often (default of about every 5 seconds from
memory) and if the problem happens when the polling isn't occurring, any
irregularities won't show up easily. Given that you have a HP machine
(probably with a simple to use HP restore CDROM) and have fully backed up
your data, if you want to rule out a software/OS problem you could try a
back to factory state reinstall - should only cost you time and not money
and this will serve to confirm it as a hardware problem. Given that you're
using a fairly old mobo with a newer OS, have you checked on HPs website to
make sure there aren't any issues with it running XP, perhaps there might be
a BIOS upgrade for the motherboard to address known issues? Do you have the
latest version available and what date is it? These are both free things to
try and if the problem still occurs then you know you'll need to spend money
for sure (assuming it's out of warranty). My money is still on the PSU
though - what are the chances you could follow up on getting it looked
at/tested and replaced pronto?

Paul.
 
Wait. What do you mean the IDE controller is intergrated into the mobo?
There is no such thing like that. A IDE Controller is the cable that
goes from the IDE Slot that is intergrated on the motherboard to Storage
Devices.

You should replace the controller since cmos battery isn't the issue.
Keep us posted on what happens after you replace the controller. Good Luck
Click to expand...


You need to review your material. The IDE cables are NOT and never have
been the same as Controllers. The controller is the electronics that
interfaces the drives to the rest of the system. Look at any manual on a
motherboard or a stand alone controller such as those made by Promise,
Adaptec, SIIG, etc.. This advice is too wrong to let pass

JT
 
Replaced the CMOS battery today -- but the same error pattern continues.
Ouch. All the other settings you've suggested are correct. The IDE
controller is integrated into the mobo. So that's a no go.

If you have any other suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them.
Click to expand...

You picked up a troll. Be careful of him.



Have a nice week...

Trent©

NUDITY...birth control for folks over 50!
 
Over the last 6 weeks my PC has been acting strangely. I am guessing that
this is a system problem (not software, OS, etc.) but I am only guessing --
any advice will be much appreciated.

The machine is as follows -- Windows XP, P III, 640 M RAM, two HDs (primary
IDE, master and slave), a CDRW and DVD (secondary IDE, master and slave).
Click to expand...

There's a lot of things you could try. But I don't want to create a
lengthy post until you answer the obvious...

Have you installed SP1?


Have a nice week...

Trent©

NUDITY...birth control for folks over 50!
 
What's the smiley for "embarrassed red-faced grin" ?

After all of this (even tried rolling back my system to a norton ghost image
which I had from before my troubles began -- but my problem
continued)....... and sure I'd done everything I could think of to prove
that the mobo was bad so I was gonna have to go buy a new mobo (and
undoubtedly, with new memory of a new form factor, etc) and spend
$$$$..........

A friend asked tonight -- well, why don't you swap out the cdrw and swap in
an old cdrom -- "Nah, it can't be that simple," said I, "but, alright, what
the heck"..........so I did the swap. And all the problems stopped (well,
it's ~40+ minutes now with no problem, and before the swap the system was
stumbling just about at bootup)............

<red, red face>

tomorrow I go buy a new cdrw.......

Thank you all very much for your help and patience.......

(many, many years ago, I had a physics teacher in high school, Mr.
orowski -- and he used to say, "when you have a short in a circuit, the
first place to look for it is between the ears"........... once again, I am
reminded of him......)

albert
 
Nooooo .... stop and read this first :-(

There's no need to buy a new CDRW as they *don't* fail in this way! Here's
whats happening - it's NOT the CDRW thats causing the problem but that this
particular drive is using more power than the plain old CROM drive you
installed instead and as a consequence the failing PSU can just cope with
that. In my experience PSU faults very often show up as other hardware
apparently failing and these are *classic* symptoms that you should look at
the PSU. Why are you so reluctant to try my suggestion of a PSU replacement?
You really are wasting your time looking at ANY other things at this stage,
such as the motherboard (which are not likely to be causing this issue). The
additional information that you've provided since first reporting this means
I'm now 99 % certain that the PSU is where the fault lies. It's likely that
if you unplug both the slave HDD and the slave optical drive to reduce the
load on the PSU, your power guzzling CDRW will "magically" work again
(unless the dodgy power supply has damaged it). I don't know what else I can
do to steer you in the right direction........

Think about it, my suggestion makes perfect sense.

Paul
PS I like your ex Physics teachers' quote - quite true
 
A friend asked tonight -- well, why don't you swap out the cdrw and swap in
an old cdrom -- "Nah, it can't be that simple," said I, "but, alright, what
the heck"..........so I did the swap. And all the problems stopped (well,
it's ~40+ minutes now with no problem, and before the swap the system was
stumbling just about at bootup)............

<red, red face>

tomorrow I go buy a new cdrw.......
Click to expand...

What do you think is wrong with the cdrw then?
Thank you all very much for your help and patience.......
Click to expand...

Yer welcome.
(many, many years ago, I had a physics teacher in high school, Mr.
orowski -- and he used to say, "when you have a short in a circuit, the
first place to look for it is between the ears"........... once again, I am
reminded of him......)
Click to expand...

I was weaned on 'Clear Thinking for Composition'.

Think clearly about how you solved your problem. What inadvertent
changes have you made to your system just by simply changing the
optical drive? There are many.

Although I don't think Paul is entirely correct in his analysis, I
think he's headed in the right direction.

As he suggested...you'll probably be back.

Anyway...good luck. Let us know how things go.



Have a nice week...

Trent©

NUDITY...birth control for folks over 50!
 
Trent,

It may have been dust internally, I am not sure. I actually did not use the
unit all that often. In any case, I have sent it to the recycling bin
(without pulling it apart) and have now replaced it with a faster unit. It
may have be fixable -- but it was a slow slow unit (8x4x? as I recall) and
the replacement was inexpensive.

Since replacing it, no problems. Fingers crossed, of course. As far as
WinXP changes, all is OK, no big changes (had to change the drive letter to
the one I'd had before, but that's about it).

albert


PS, curious about 'Clear Thinking For Composition' I googled, of course.
Among the links I got was this.....
http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/b9f469d647c6becc.html
home page here....
http://www.oclc.org/
I post this, FYI. I am a library kind of guy, often using my local systems
(in NYC, there are several) online. I have others bookmarked, too. And the
above in one I'd never stumbled upon. Given your mention, I thought you
might appreciate the resource.

albert
 
Paul,

Well, the deed is done. Old HP CDRW (a very slow unit), now replaced with a
much faster, inexpensive Memorex (on sale at Circuit City). Since then no
problems.

As far as the PSU goes, well, I dunno, you might be right, but so far, as I
said, the system is perfect. I actually do not use the CDRW that often.
The system came with a CDRW, DVD and one HD. The only net change I have
made in the three or so years I've had it was to add a second HD (the day I
got it) -- which I have always used as backup storage (Ghost images of the
master drive, mainly). So the power supply has always been at least
adequate for those needs.

I am willing to consider that I should keep an eye on the PSU. As far as
your thought that the CDRW was drawing too much power, well, it was acting
up without being called upon to perform, it was empty. I really don't use
my CDRW and DVD drives that much -- just to copy software onto my HD (I
install software from the HD, keep a full copy there of whatever CD the
software came on, and store the original), and to make occasional CDs, or
copies of CDs. So, it may have been pulling too much power, but not because
of its inherent characteristics -- it lived happily in the system, and the
system lived happily, until a few days ago. So, at this point, it was
easier to just do a remove and replace.

I'll keep your advice in mind. And if my fix proves to be shortsighted, I
will post about it.

Thanks again for your patient help and lucid explanations.

albert
 
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