Problem with Power & IDE Connections to HDD and DVD drives

[Jethro]

I have two machines that have had similar problems over the past year.
It seems that periodically a machine will not boot up because the hard
drive is not recognized. Further, sometimes a machine will boot up
okay, but then I discover that a DVD drive is not recognized.

Every time it happens, I can 'jiggle' or re-connect either the
associated IDE cable or power connection, and re-boot correctly. My
one salvation has been that this problem does not happen too often -
maybe once every two weeks or so. However, it happens often enough
that I don't replace the tower covers - leaving the innards exposed
for easier access to solve the problem.

I have tried replacing the cables, both IDE and power. I have tried
replacing the PSU (which of course has its own new power cables).
The problem simple keeps re-curing.

All this brings me to ask - what is going on? Imagine if I were a
novice user with these machines. I wouldn't know what to try, and I
would even fear to try messing around with the cabling.

The implication is that the connection pins are deteriorating
(?oxidizing?) over time through use. I thought maybe there are
'grades' of cables, IDE or power, or both. I haven't seen any though
- maybe I have just missed them.

So - here I sit - hoping someone can suggest something reasonable, but
adequate, to improve or fix things. Anyone?

Thanks

Jethro

 

[Rod Speed]

I have two machines that have had similar problems over the past year.
It seems that periodically a machine will not boot up because the hard
drive is not recognized. Further, sometimes a machine will boot up
okay, but then I discover that a DVD drive is not recognized.

Every time it happens, I can 'jiggle' or re-connect either the
associated IDE cable or power connection, and re-boot correctly.
My one salvation has been that this problem does not happen too
often - maybe once every two weeks or so. However, it happens
often enough that I don't replace the tower covers - leaving the
innards exposed for easier access to solve the problem.

I have tried replacing the cables, both IDE and power. I have tried
replacing the PSU (which of course has its own new power cables).
The problem simple keeps re-curing.

All this brings me to ask - what is going on?

That set of symptoms would normally be due to either a motherboard
with a dry joint or cracked trace, or an intermittent short to case.

The best way to check for an intermittent short to case is to run
the motherboard loose on the desktop. You'd obviously have to
do that for a couple of weeks with that sort of fault frequency.

Imagine if I were a novice user with these machines.
I wouldn't know what to try, and I would even fear
to try messing around with the cabling.

The implication is that the connection pins are
deteriorating (?oxidizing?) over time through use.

You'd have to be in a very unusual environment to produce that effect.

You do wash your feet dont you ?

I thought maybe there are 'grades' of cables, IDE or power, or both.

There are, but that wont be the problem otherwise everyone
would be reporting that effect you are seeing and we dont.

 

[Jethro]

That set of symptoms would normally be due to either a motherboard
with a dry joint or cracked trace, or an intermittent short to case.

The best way to check for an intermittent short to case is to run
the motherboard loose on the desktop. You'd obviously have to
do that for a couple of weeks with that sort of fault frequency.

Hmmm - I guess I could try running with a loose MOBO. Never thought
of that.

If I have an intermittent short problem, I would be having it on both
machines, wouldn't I? How likely would that be? Also, a short like
that would affect other hardware at the same time, not just one drive
- or did I confuse you into thinking that when it happened - it
affected all drives? If so, I'm sorry - because when I lose a drive,
I lose only one drive. The other drives remain working. For example,
if I lose a CD drive, generally my hard drives are working and the
machine boots up. Or, if I lose a hard drive, many times the machine
simply will not boot up or boot up from the second drive, which by
chance happens to be bootable since I use it for clone backups of my
main hard drive.

So what I am trying to say is that when it happens, usually only one
end of one cable (power or IDE) has failed. When I 'jiggle' the
cable-end involved (which involves guesswork), the machine then will
boot up properly, with all drives recognized. I did feel at one time
that the problem was that the power connectors would 'wear out', by
the male wire ends pushing the female opposing-ends to the point where
contact would stop. I even bought some new 'extenders' which seemed
to help, but it re-curred after a while.

 

[kony]

I have two machines that have had similar problems over the past year.
It seems that periodically a machine will not boot up because the hard
drive is not recognized. Further, sometimes a machine will boot up
okay, but then I discover that a DVD drive is not recognized.

Is the *missing* or unrecognized drive always connected to
the same controller port or socket? If so, might be a
motherboard defect like a cold solder joint or crack, or
these days... maybe even a tin whisker shorting something.

Every time it happens, I can 'jiggle' or re-connect either the
associated IDE cable or power connection, and re-boot correctly.

How much of a jiggle? Is it pretty much isolated to moving
the end connected to the drive rather than the motherboard
end?

My
one salvation has been that this problem does not happen too often -
maybe once every two weeks or so. However, it happens often enough
that I don't replace the tower covers - leaving the innards exposed
for easier access to solve the problem.

Tie a string around the cable and route it out a hole in the
case panel to jiggle it? Just kidding.

I have tried replacing the cables, both IDE and power. I have tried
replacing the PSU (which of course has its own new power cables).
The problem simple keeps re-curing.

All this brings me to ask - what is going on? Imagine if I were a
novice user with these machines. I wouldn't know what to try, and I
would even fear to try messing around with the cabling.

The implication is that the connection pins are deteriorating
(?oxidizing?) over time through use. I thought maybe there are
'grades' of cables, IDE or power, or both. I haven't seen any though
- maybe I have just missed them.

So - here I sit - hoping someone can suggest something reasonable, but
adequate, to improve or fix things. Anyone?

You need to isolate whether it is the cables or drive(s).
If the drive is the problem, wiggling the cable might make
an intermittent contact, it might even seem ok for days or
longer. If it's the drive, next is determination whether
it's fixable, whether a dirty pin or cold solder joint or
PCB crack or contact points between drive circuit board and
rest of drive. Also inspect the drive pins to ensure they
aren't degrated from dirt or intermittent contact//arching,
they might be cleaned, or I suppose it's even possible one
has a defective pin, mishapen or something.

I once had a pin jumper on a HDD that was defective, took me
ages to figure that out as only swapping in a different
jumper solved it, I didn't think to examine the jumper
itself under a magnifying glass at the time.

You didn't mention the brands or models of drives either,
and is it possible they're not jumpered correctly? What
controller (and motherboard) are they connected to? You
might also check on a bios update.

 

[Jethro]

Is the *missing* or unrecognized drive always connected to
the same controller port or socket? If so, might be a
motherboard defect like a cold solder joint or crack, or
these days... maybe even a tin whisker shorting something.



How much of a jiggle? Is it pretty much isolated to moving
the end connected to the drive rather than the motherboard
end?




Tie a string around the cable and route it out a hole in the
case panel to jiggle it? Just kidding.





You need to isolate whether it is the cables or drive(s).
If the drive is the problem, wiggling the cable might make
an intermittent contact, it might even seem ok for days or
longer. If it's the drive, next is determination whether
it's fixable, whether a dirty pin or cold solder joint or
PCB crack or contact points between drive circuit board and
rest of drive. Also inspect the drive pins to ensure they
aren't degrated from dirt or intermittent contact//arching,
they might be cleaned, or I suppose it's even possible one
has a defective pin, mishapen or something.

I once had a pin jumper on a HDD that was defective, took me
ages to figure that out as only swapping in a different
jumper solved it, I didn't think to examine the jumper
itself under a magnifying glass at the time.

You didn't mention the brands or models of driv es either,
and is it possible they're not jumpered correctly? What
controller (and motherboard) are they connected to? You
might also check on a bios update.

Thanks for all the ideas. I think my next first step will be to
replace the IDE primary cable with a new one, and to replace the power
connector with a new 'extension', and to clean the pins on the drive
(IDE and power) with a solvent. Then when (if) it happens again, I'll
examine the drive pins with a magnifier I have, I just have the gut
feeling that my problem may be electrical and that maybe the low
voltage signals are being degraded due to something on the order of
corrosion or maybe oxidation? Of course I have to ask - why me? I
know of none else suffering with this.

Jethro

 

[Rod Speed]

Hmmm - I guess I could try running with a loose MOBO. Never thought of that.

If I have an intermittent short problem, I would be having it
on both machines, wouldn't I? How likely would that be?

Yeah, I missed the two machine bit in the original.

Corse if the two machines are very similar, and the problem
is that the design of the motherboard assumes that the nylon
spacers are used to mount the motherboard in the case,
and you have chosen to use those metal hex studs instead,
and its those that are producing the intermittent short, that
would be seen with both machines.

That was the situation with mine, there wasnt enough of a land
around the mounting hole to work properly with hex mounting studs.

Also, a short like that would affect other
hardware at the same time, not just one drive

Nope, I have one system that did that, it only affect
the drive recognition, everything else worked fine.

- or did I confuse you into thinking that
when it happened - it affected all drives?

It would normally only affect the drives on one ribbon cable, not all drives.

If so, I'm sorry - because when I lose a drive, I lose only one drive.
The other drives remain working. For example, if I lose a CD drive,
generally my hard drives are working and the machine boots up. Or,
if I lose a hard drive, many times the machine simply will not boot up
or boot up from the second drive, which by chance happens to be
bootable since I use it for clone backups of my main hard drive.

Yeah, I got the same effect. Normally when I upgrade the main boot drive
to a bigger drive, I leave the older one in the system for a while in case the
new drive dies very early. I also have heaps of repeating alarms in Outlook
for all sorts of stuff, so when the normal boot drive wasnt recognised, the
bios would boot off the older drive, and all those alarms would go off like
mad. Odd effect until it was obvious why that was happening.

So what I am trying to say is that when it happens, usually only
one end of one cable (power or IDE) has failed. When I 'jiggle'
the cable-end involved (which involves guesswork), the machine
then will boot up properly, with all drives recognized.

OK, didnt realise it was one of the drives on a ribbon cable.

That could be due to pair of drives that arent too happy about
coexisting on the same ribbon cable and they arent always
both detected reliably. The obvious test for that is to change
the allocation of drives to ribbon cables and see if the hard
drives are happier to coexist with the optical drives etc.

I did feel at one time that the problem was that the power
connectors would 'wear out', by the male wire ends pushing
the female opposing-ends to the point where contact would stop.

Its more that the female tunnels do tend to open up over
time and then not make good contact, but you have
eliminated that possibility with the new power supply.

I even bought some new 'extenders'

That doesnt replace the female connector that comes out of the power supply.

Replacing the power supply proves its not that tho.

which seemed to help,

Thats the problem with a fault that show up so infrequently, its always hard to
be sure whether any change has actually helped till the fault shows up again.

 

[kony]

Thanks for all the ideas. I think my next first step will be to
replace the IDE primary cable with a new one, and to replace the power
connector with a new 'extension', and to clean the pins on the drive
(IDE and power) with a solvent. Then when (if) it happens again, I'll
examine the drive pins with a magnifier I have, I just have the gut
feeling that my problem may be electrical and that maybe the low
voltage signals are being degraded due to something on the order of
corrosion or maybe oxidation? Of course I have to ask - why me? I
know of none else suffering with this.

IDC (insulation displacement connector) IE cables are a lot
more fragile than power cables. If the connector pins look
ok, not deformed or on the plug, wedged open too far, simply
plugging and unplugged it will do a reasonable job of
cleaning most kinds of mild corrosion, oxidation is not much
of a factor unless you had some severe environment.

I'd as likely blame the circuit board flexing when the cable
is plugged in, a crack or dry solder joint on it. Swapping
in another drive is the best test, IMO. Occasionally I'll
hear of optical drive that get flaky and disappear
periodically, if it was always on the same cable then I
suggest leaving it on the opposing cable at least
temporarily... and of course double-checking the jumpers.

 

[Jethro]

Yeah, I missed the two machine bit in the original.

Corse if the two machines are very similar, and the problem
is that the design of the motherboard assumes that the nylon
spacers are used to mount the motherboard in the case,
and you have chosen to use those metal hex studs instead,
and its those that are producing the intermittent short, that
would be seen with both machines.

Good point. I did in fact use studs. The MOBOs are similar, but
different. One is AMD Athlon 64, the other Intel (P4).

That was the situation with mine, there wasnt enough of a land
around the mounting hole to work properly with hex mounting studs.

I may take a look at that.

Nope, I have one system that did that, it only affect
the drive recognition, everything else worked fine.

Surprise to me that this could happen.

It would normally only affect the drives on one ribbon cable, not all drives.


Yeah, I got the same effect. Normally when I upgrade the main boot drive
to a bigger drive, I leave the older one in the system for a while in case the
new drive dies very early. I also have heaps of repeating alarms in Outlook
for all sorts of stuff, so when the normal boot drive wasnt recognised, the
bios would boot off the older drive, and all those alarms would go off like
mad. Odd effect until it was obvious why that was happening.


OK, didnt realise it was one of the drives on a ribbon cable.

That could be due to pair of drives that arent too happy about
coexisting on the same ribbon cable and they arent always
both detected reliably. The obvious test for that is to change
the allocation of drives to ribbon cables and see if the hard
drives are happier to coexist with the optical drives etc.

Yep - that would be good to try.

Its more that the female tunnels do tend to open up over
time and then not make good contact, but you have
eliminated that possibility with the new power supply.


That doesnt replace the female connector that comes out of the power supply.

That's for sure.

Replacing the power supply proves its not that tho.


Thats the problem with a fault that show up so infrequently, its always hard to
be sure whether any change has actually helped till the fault shows up again.

Just Slower Lower Delaware - 5 miles from ocean.

No - should I?
As I said in prior post, I was going to change cables, and clean
contacts. I have done that. Now I'll just wait and see, huh?