Problem getting a new XP computer to join an NT 4.0/Win 98 domain

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stephen Porter
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Stephen Porter

Hi,

I'm pretty inexperienced with anything beyond simple peer-to-
peer networks, although I have set up and worked with a lot of
these and know the basics pretty well. This is a recent problem
that I need some help with.

We have a simple network that was set up years ago and has
functioned well enough for quite some time. When I started
working here we decided that we would gradually start updating
the computers and the file server with the goal of getting
things into the 20th century.

We just bought a couple of Dell workstations with Windows XP and
I've already run into something today that I couldn't solve via
trial-and-error. I'll be hitting the books later, but I have a
feeling this might be something very simple that more
knowledgable folks could answer easily, so I'm posting here and
I guess to the Win98 networking group as well.

The current setup has a bunch of machines running Win 98 SE and
one machine with Win 2000 Pro. There is a file server that
runs NT 4.0 and *I believe* is also a domain controller. At
least all the existing computers are configured to log onto a
domain with a password at bootup.

If you scan Network Neighborhood for the Entire Network after
booting, there are 3 workgroups: Domain, Office and Workgroup.
The workgroup "Domain" (which is also the domain's name... ;-))
has only the server as a member, with a couple of shares set up
so all the computers can access and store data files on the
server. The other two workgroups have 4 and 5 computers
resepectively. All the computers map to the server shares and
all is fine.

In attempting to set up the new Dell workstation, which has XP
Professional, I am able to see the workgroups "Office" and
"Workgroup" and all the computers and shares in them. The
workgroup "Domain," however, doesn't show up at all.

I figured this is because the XP machine hasn't been set up to
log onto the domain, "Domain," but whenever I try to set it up
that way, i.e., change the workgroup setting to a domain, I just
get a quick search and then an error message saying that no
domain controller can be found.

I've gotten as far as reading the minimal troubleshooting notes
in XP and it sounded like there might be some DNS setup issues
with the NT 4.0/Windows 98 setup, but I'm just over my head with
that.

In a nutshell I need to somehow make it possible for the new XP
machines to see and map to shares on the NT file server. Once
that's all configured and users are getting used to the new
interface we'll move on to getting a more up-to-date server,
possibly install Small Business Server 2003, etc., etc. But
this is like stumbling right out of the blocks of a mile race
;-)!

Any pointers/advice/solutions appreciated.

Best regards,

Stephen Porter
Los Angeles, CA
 
Stephen Porter said:
Hi,

I'm pretty inexperienced with anything beyond simple peer-to-
peer networks, although I have set up and worked with a lot of
these and know the basics pretty well. This is a recent problem
that I need some help with.

We have a simple network that was set up years ago and has
functioned well enough for quite some time. When I started
working here we decided that we would gradually start updating
the computers and the file server with the goal of getting
things into the 20th century.

We just bought a couple of Dell workstations with Windows XP and
I've already run into something today that I couldn't solve via
trial-and-error. I'll be hitting the books later, but I have a
feeling this might be something very simple that more
knowledgable folks could answer easily, so I'm posting here and
I guess to the Win98 networking group as well.

The current setup has a bunch of machines running Win 98 SE and
one machine with Win 2000 Pro. There is a file server that
runs NT 4.0 and *I believe* is also a domain controller. At
least all the existing computers are configured to log onto a
domain with a password at bootup.

If you scan Network Neighborhood for the Entire Network after
booting, there are 3 workgroups: Domain, Office and Workgroup.
The workgroup "Domain" (which is also the domain's name... ;-))
has only the server as a member, with a couple of shares set up
so all the computers can access and store data files on the
server. The other two workgroups have 4 and 5 computers
resepectively. All the computers map to the server shares and
all is fine.

In attempting to set up the new Dell workstation, which has XP
Professional, I am able to see the workgroups "Office" and
"Workgroup" and all the computers and shares in them. The
workgroup "Domain," however, doesn't show up at all.

I figured this is because the XP machine hasn't been set up to
log onto the domain, "Domain," but whenever I try to set it up
that way, i.e., change the workgroup setting to a domain, I just
get a quick search and then an error message saying that no
domain controller can be found.

I've gotten as far as reading the minimal troubleshooting notes
in XP and it sounded like there might be some DNS setup issues
with the NT 4.0/Windows 98 setup, but I'm just over my head with
that.

In a nutshell I need to somehow make it possible for the new XP
machines to see and map to shares on the NT file server. Once
that's all configured and users are getting used to the new
interface we'll move on to getting a more up-to-date server,
possibly install Small Business Server 2003, etc., etc. But
this is like stumbling right out of the blocks of a mile race
;-)!

Any pointers/advice/solutions appreciated.

Best regards,

Stephen Porter
Los Angeles, CA
Click to expand...

Your post needs some clarification.

Your Subject line reads "Problem getting a new XP computer
to join an NT 4.0/Win 98 domain". There is no such thing as
a Win98 domain. You can have an NT4 domain, if you run
WinNT4 server.

You have to establish once and for all if you run in a workgroup
environment or in a domain environment. If your existing NT4/
Win2000/WinXP clients show three boxes on the logon screen
(User name, Password, Domain name), and if you can select
"Domain" as a logon domain then you are in a domain environment.

Domains are here to
- validate user accounts centrally
- run centralised logon scripts
- apply policies

Domains have nothing at all to do with file or folder sharing. In other
words, you can share a folder on some server regardless of its
status as a domain controller or as a file server. However: If you
operate in a workgroup environment then you must manually
synchronise every account name and password on every machine.
In a domain environment, account details are held centrally on the
domain controller, hence no synchronisation is required.

Lastly: If all your machines belong to the same workgroup or to
the same domain then you can see the various shares in Explorer.
If they belong to different workgroups or domains then you cannot
easily see shares on other machines. However, you can still map
a share - if you know the address! You could, for example, type
this command from a Command Prompt:

net use x: \\SomeServer\SomeShare

The command is completely independent of any domain or
workgroup settings that you might have in place. It only depends
on these things:
- IP address
- User name / password
- Existence of the nominated share
- Firewall settings (firewall tend to block things, including your
attempt at registering your WinXP machine on the domain!)
 
You're really getting things STAY into the 20th century with Win98 and NT4
:o)

Sounds like there is the workgroups only. Keep in mind XP should have
NetBIOS enabled over TCP/IP in pre-W2k network and XP can win master browser
elections over any NT4 and W2k system.
 
Hi,

I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond to your comments and
suggestions until now. I've been doing several other things,
but this is still a problem.

I understand all your points. I did a bit more poking around
and all of the computers on this network do log onto a domain,
in this case named "Domain" (just to make things confusing!).

I'm going to insert another write-up of the situation here in
the hopes that you might be able to point me further in the
right direction. As you will read, the problem seems to be
that the XP box will NOT recognize the NT 4.0 machine as a valid
domain controller. Why this should affect the XP box's ability
to "see" the server, I'm not sure. I'm hoping that you will
see this be able to respond again.

TIA.

__________________________________________
More details on the XP/Win 98/NT 4.0 network problem:

Situation: the place where I work has a very simple network
setup that has been functioning without problems for several
years--before I came on board and ended up with the
responsibility for handling the occasional glitch and other
computer-related things. There are about 9 computers on the
network. The file server runs NT 4.0 and 7 of the workstations
are running Win 98 SE. One workstation runs Win 2K
Professional. All of the computers are set up to logon onto a
domain--although they really don't have to be set up this way in
this simple scenario, at least I don't know of any reason they
should. The domain name is "Domain".

The owner of the company wants to gradually upgrade all the
computers on the network and as a first step I ordered two Dell
boxes with XP Professional on them. I'm trying to get the
first one set up as a workstation on the network and am not able
to either log on to the domain, nor am I able to see the file
server at all.

Further details: there are 3 workgroups defined on the network.
Again, I inherited all this setup and would like to
simplify/streamline and improve everything, but I want to do it
gradually and hopefully not break anything in the process.

Workgroup 1: "Domain" -- 1 member, which is the file server
itself.
Workgroup 2: "Workgroup" -- 5 members
Workgroup 3: "Office" -- 4 members

ALL of the OLD workstations see all 3 of these workgroups and
can access any shares enabled on the file server and/or any
workstation with shares defined.

The NEW XP workstation sees only the two non-server workgroups:
"Workgroup" and "Office". The XP box itself is currently a
member of the "Workgroup" workgroup, but I've tried changing it
to "Office" and "Domain" with no joy.

I was/am working on theory that in order to see the file server
the XP box needs to log onto the domain, "Domain," and have
tried to get it to do so by changing the Network ID dialog with
the radio button for setting it up to log on to a domain
controller. Whenever I set it up this way, I get an error
message saying that "no domain controller can be found" and
that's that--it just reverts back to the workgroup setting, and
I can see all the computer in the two other workgroups, but not
the file server, which is in the workgroup "Domain." (I hope
this isn't too confusing ;-). Once I feel I can work with this
without breaking anything I intend to remove these
ambiguous/confusing names.)

The people who originally set up and have worked on this network
in the past are all scattered to the winds, but I did call
someone a colleague recommended as a possible consultant. He
seemed to be well-credentialed and sounded as though he knew
what he was talking about, although he thought that our network
and company are too small for him to take on as a client, and,
frankly, he's quite expensive and only works on monthly
contracts. But he was congenial and in a nutshell he told me
that XP boxes will not recognize NT 4.0 boxes--at least as
domain controllers. According to him our only two choices in
this situation would be to revert the new XP boxes to Win 2K Pro
OR to upgrade the server to Server 2002/3 OR to possibly just
use another Win XP box as the server and make it a REALLY
simple, peer-to-peer network. I thanked him and started
thinking about this problem and recalled that I do have
experience with another company where the file server is running
NT 4.0 and it has SEVERAL XP boxes that have no trouble at all
seeing the file server and any shares on it. In this case,
however, there is NO domain to be logged onto.

So I'm not entirely trusting what the $175/hour consultant is
saying--is the "incompatibility" (which he claims MS built into
XP in order to get people to upgrade from NT servers) is domain-
related? Or is it just not true and there is some other
solution.

If he is right and the problem is related to the fact that I
can't seem to get the XP box to recognize the domain, "Domain,"
then is there some way to safely revert the file server from
being a domain controller and just change all the workstations
to simple peer-to-peer mode??

Target # 1 here is to just get these XP boxes running as
workstations with as little fuss as possible. Then we will
address the issue of adding more XP boxes at the workstations
and also buying an upgraded server. We're thinking about
getting Small Business Server 2003, although that's probably
overkill also. I would like to get a server with a RAID setup
to provide some redundancy--but that's secondary now.

Thanks in advance for any help. I'm sure the people here will
be able to steer me in the right direction on this one.
 
See below.

Stephen Porter said:
Hi,

I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond to your comments and
suggestions until now. I've been doing several other things,
but this is still a problem.

I understand all your points. I did a bit more poking around
and all of the computers on this network do log onto a domain,
in this case named "Domain" (just to make things confusing!).

I'm going to insert another write-up of the situation here in
the hopes that you might be able to point me further in the
right direction. As you will read, the problem seems to be
that the XP box will NOT recognize the NT 4.0 machine as a valid
domain controller. Why this should affect the XP box's ability
to "see" the server, I'm not sure. I'm hoping that you will
see this be able to respond again.

TIA.

__________________________________________
More details on the XP/Win 98/NT 4.0 network problem:

Situation: the place where I work has a very simple network
setup that has been functioning without problems for several
years--before I came on board and ended up with the
responsibility for handling the occasional glitch and other
computer-related things. There are about 9 computers on the
network. The file server runs NT 4.0 and 7 of the workstations
are running Win 98 SE. One workstation runs Win 2K
Professional. All of the computers are set up to logon onto a
domain--although they really don't have to be set up this way in
this simple scenario, at least I don't know of any reason they
should. The domain name is "Domain".

The owner of the company wants to gradually upgrade all the
computers on the network and as a first step I ordered two Dell
boxes with XP Professional on them. I'm trying to get the
first one set up as a workstation on the network and am not able
to either log on to the domain, nor am I able to see the file
server at all.

Further details: there are 3 workgroups defined on the network.
Again, I inherited all this setup and would like to
simplify/streamline and improve everything, but I want to do it
gradually and hopefully not break anything in the process.

Workgroup 1: "Domain" -- 1 member, which is the file server
itself.
Workgroup 2: "Workgroup" -- 5 members
Workgroup 3: "Office" -- 4 members

ALL of the OLD workstations see all 3 of these workgroups and
can access any shares enabled on the file server and/or any
workstation with shares defined.
Click to expand...

There is a widespread misconception that "workgroups" and
"domains" control the degree of access that users have to networked
resources. Not so. Domains are a convenient way of managing
accounts centrally. Workgroups are a convenient way of showing
network resources in "Explorer". They do NOT restrict a user's
access to a given resource!

While your WinXP PCs are unable to access shares defined on the
other PCs, get back to basics and start working from a Command
Prompt on a WinXP PC. Look at these things:
- Run ipconfig.exe /all. Are the IP address details compatible
with your WinNT machine? Can you ping the server?
- Accounts. Does your local WinXP account/password have
an identical account defined on your WinNT machine?
- Firewall: Is your WinXP firewall turned off? Is the firewall
that is bundled with your virus scanner turned off?
- Share. What do you get when you type this command:
net use x: \\YourServer\YourShare
The NEW XP workstation sees only the two non-server workgroups:
"Workgroup" and "Office". The XP box itself is currently a
member of the "Workgroup" workgroup, but I've tried changing it
to "Office" and "Domain" with no joy.
Click to expand...

What does "see" in "The NEW XP workstation sees only . . ." mean?
Are you working out of Explorer? Use a Command Prompt - it is
much more direct, it makes fewer assumptions and generates has far
more informative error messages. GUIS are for users; administrators
must get used to working from the command line!
I was/am working on theory that in order to see the file server
the XP box needs to log onto the domain, "Domain," and have
tried to get it to do so by changing the Network ID dialog with
the radio button for setting it up to log on to a domain
controller. Whenever I set it up this way, I get an error
message saying that "no domain controller can be found" and
that's that--it just reverts back to the workgroup setting,
Click to expand...

This usually happens when a firewall blocks traffic.
and
I can see all the computer in the two other workgroups, but not
the file server, which is in the workgroup "Domain." (I hope
this isn't too confusing ;-).
Click to expand...

When I want to "see" another machine then I do this:
- Log on as administrator.
- Start a Command Prompt.
- Issue this command: dir \\OtherPC\SomeShare
I never use Explorer for trouble-shooting, because it was
never intended as a trouble-shooting tool.
Once I feel I can work with this
without breaking anything I intend to remove these
ambiguous/confusing names.)

The people who originally set up and have worked on this network
in the past are all scattered to the winds, but I did call
someone a colleague recommended as a possible consultant. He
seemed to be well-credentialed and sounded as though he knew
what he was talking about, although he thought that our network
and company are too small for him to take on as a client, and,
frankly, he's quite expensive and only works on monthly
contracts. But he was congenial and in a nutshell he told me
that XP boxes will not recognize NT 4.0 boxes--at least as
domain controllers.
Click to expand...

I doubt that this is correct but then I don't have any NT domains
left, and setting one up just to give you an authoritative answer to
your question seems a little over the top. You might try one of
these newsgroups to settle this issue:
- comp.os.ms.windows.nt.admin.networking
- comp.os.ms.windows.nt.admin.misc
 
Hi again,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your help in analyzing
this, especially since it's pretty clear that I'm missing some
basic concepts here. I DO understand the differentiation
between "domains" and "workgroups," though. If there is NO
requirement for the XP to log onto the domain then the problem
lies elsewhere. Here are the answers to the questions you ask.

The server's IP address is fixed: 192.0.0.180/255.255.255.0.
This address and sub-net doesn't seem to fit into any of the IP
addresses on any of the workstations. The XP machine CANNOT
ping the server. Neither can any of the other workstations.

The XP machine's IP: 169.254.42.244/255.255.0.0 All the
other workstations that I have tried have similar IP's:
169.254.105.162; 169.254.42.244; 169.254.105.162. All these
have the same sub-net address: 255.255.255.0.

I'm not clear on the concept of subnet's but apparently all the
various workgroup computers are on a different subnet than the
server. And none of them can ping the server. All of them
can also "see" and access the shares on the server and the
server can likewise see all of the workstations EXCEPT the XP
machine. The XP machine can also "see" and access the shares
on any of the other workstations. So it's just the server and
the XP machine that have the incompatibility as far as shares
go.

I was tempted to change the subnet and maybe the IP address on
the server, but the last thing I can afford to happen is to
block or break the current connection that all the other
workstations have to the server, so I'll wait until I'm more
certain of what to do.

The server has both TCP/IP and NETBEUI bound to the NIC and all
the workstations do also. I noticed that this protocol is not
available in the XP dialogs, but there is an "NW Link NETBIOS"
protocol bound to the NIC in the XP box. I don't know if this
is XP's version of NETBEUI, or whether it's part of the problem.

identical account defined on your WinNT machine?

Yes. I've set up several accounts on the XP machine that match
the user accounts on the server exactly and tested each one.

that is bundled with your > virus scanner turned off?

Yes. No firewalls are active.

x: \\YourServer\YourShare

"The network path was not found."


I also did a little research in "Windows XP Inside Out" and came
up with the following, which might be germane to this problem:

"NetBEUI. This protocol (short for NetBIOS Extended User
Interface) is available as an unsupported option in Windows XP.
It was originally developed for use on small networks running
Windows 3.x NetBEUI can cause performance problems on some
networks and should only be used when an exiting network
configuration requires it. In most cases IPX/SPX is a better
choice."

I'm in over my head on this, but as I mentioned, the protocols
bound to the NIC on the server are NetBEUI *and* TCP/IP. So I'm
not sure whether this might be the problem or not.

It seems that all the other computers have the same sub-net-not-
matching problem and they are all able to access server shares,
and NOT able to ping the server, so the missing NetBEUI seems to
be a the only thing missing.

Thanks again for following this. I'm going to try and hit a
few books tonight and learn more about sub-nets. I'm not sure
why the server has an assigned IP and why the sub-net is
different, but as I mentioned, I don't want to change that
unless I'm sure I won't undo something that is working.

Best regards,
Stephen Porter
 
See below.

Stephen Porter said:
Hi again,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your help in analyzing
this, especially since it's pretty clear that I'm missing some
basic concepts here. I DO understand the differentiation
between "domains" and "workgroups," though. If there is NO
requirement for the XP to log onto the domain then the problem
lies elsewhere. Here are the answers to the questions you ask.


The server's IP address is fixed: 192.0.0.180/255.255.255.0.
This address and sub-net doesn't seem to fit into any of the IP
addresses on any of the workstations. The XP machine CANNOT
ping the server. Neither can any of the other workstations.

The XP machine's IP: 169.254.42.244/255.255.0.0 All the
other workstations that I have tried have similar IP's:
169.254.105.162; 169.254.42.244; 169.254.105.162. All these
have the same sub-net address: 255.255.255.0.
Click to expand...

Your addresses indicate that the XP machines are using DHCP
and that they were unable to locate a DHCP server. Do you have
one? Why don't you set fixed addresses while testing, e.g.
192.0.0.181, 192.0.0.182? By the way, "255.255.255.0" is not
and address; it is called the "subnet mask". When set to
"255.255.255.0" then your workstations may have addresses
in the range of 192.0.0.1 to 192.0.0.254.
I'm not clear on the concept of subnet's but apparently all the
various workgroup computers are on a different subnet than the
server. And none of them can ping the server. All of them
can also "see" and access the shares on the server and the
server can likewise see all of the workstations EXCEPT the XP
machine. The XP machine can also "see" and access the shares
on any of the other workstations. So it's just the server and
the XP machine that have the incompatibility as far as shares
go.
Click to expand...

If you can access any shares with your current address scheme
then it is because you're using some other protocol on top of
TCP/IP. I don't think it's a good idea to use two different
protocols.
I was tempted to change the subnet and maybe the IP address on
the server, but the last thing I can afford to happen is to
block or break the current connection that all the other
workstations have to the server, so I'll wait until I'm more
certain of what to do.

The server has both TCP/IP and NETBEUI bound to the NIC and all
the workstations do also. I noticed that this protocol is not
available in the XP dialogs, but there is an "NW Link NETBIOS"
protocol bound to the NIC in the XP box. I don't know if this
is XP's version of NETBEUI, or whether it's part of the problem.
Click to expand...

It seems you have three protocols:
- TCP/IP
- NetBEUI
- Netware
Not exactly a clean, transparent network . . .
identical account defined on your WinNT machine?

Yes. I've set up several accounts on the XP machine that match
the user accounts on the server exactly and tested each one.


that is bundled with your > virus scanner turned off?

Yes. No firewalls are active.


x: \\YourServer\YourShare

"The network path was not found."


I also did a little research in "Windows XP Inside Out" and came
up with the following, which might be germane to this problem:

"NetBEUI. This protocol (short for NetBIOS Extended User
Interface) is available as an unsupported option in Windows XP.
It was originally developed for use on small networks running
Windows 3.x NetBEUI can cause performance problems on some
networks and should only be used when an exiting network
configuration requires it. In most cases IPX/SPX is a better
choice."
Click to expand...

.. . . and TCP/IP is a better choice again unless you run a
Novell network.
I'm in over my head on this, but as I mentioned, the protocols
bound to the NIC on the server are NetBEUI *and* TCP/IP. So I'm
not sure whether this might be the problem or not.

It seems that all the other computers have the same sub-net-not-
matching problem and they are all able to access server shares,
and NOT able to ping the server, so the missing NetBEUI seems to
be a the only thing missing.

Thanks again for following this. I'm going to try and hit a
few books tonight and learn more about sub-nets. I'm not sure
why the server has an assigned IP and why the sub-net is
different, but as I mentioned, I don't want to change that
unless I'm sure I won't undo something that is working.

Best regards,
Stephen Porter
Click to expand...

I suggest you do this:
1. Set up one workstation with the correct IP parameters.
2. Test it.
3. Disable all protocols other than TCP on the server.
4. Test your workstation again.
5. Fix up the other workstations.
 
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