Problem 80 wire cable for hard disk

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ClueLess

Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk

Hi Friends

Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
all the hard disks are recognized.

No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
cable.

How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
 
Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk

Hi Friends

Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
all the hard disks are recognized.

No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
cable.

How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
Click to expand...
And the hard drive make/model is?
And the motherboard make/model is?
And the BIOS version is?
 
Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk

Hi Friends

Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80 wire
cable my computer does not recognize it.

It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I swapped
the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I connected the
original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I tried both the IDE0
and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried also other hard disks as
well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
all the hard disks are recognized.

No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
cable.

How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the problem
is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
Click to expand...

You'll have to format the hard drive(s) while using the 40-pin cable, and
then the 80-pin cable will work.
 
Dan said:
You'll have to format the hard drive(s) while using the 40-pin cable, and
then the 80-pin cable will work.
Click to expand...


Of course, don't follow this advice, at all! He's trying to be a "funny
guy".

Yousuf Khan
 
Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk

Hi Friends

Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
all the hard disks are recognized.

No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
cable.

How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
Click to expand...

I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
that.

Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally why
it isn't recognized. Did the other drives work elswhere?

In the device manager, do you get any errors?
 
I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
that.
Click to expand...

Bzzzt! Fail!

http://everything.explained.at/AT_Attachment/

Quote:
"Though the number of wires doubled, the number of connector pins and
the pinout remain the same as 40-conductor cables, and the external
appearance of the connectors is identical."
 
I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the
same connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you
CAN'T do that.
Click to expand...

WTF????????????????????????
 
ClueLess said:
Posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, 24hoursupport.helpdesk

Hi Friends

Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
all the hard disks are recognized.

No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire
cable.

How does this happen? This is just a banana motherboard and the
problem is in the bios stage itself. (bios says "Not installed")

If any of you can give me an explanation or a solution please do
Click to expand...

Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.
Only 40 signal wires are used in both. The 80-wire ribbon cable has a
ground wire between each signal wire to reduce cross-talk and noise. It is
still a 40-pin connector to a 40-pin connector setup.

There are some cables that are physically altered (by snipping out a very
short length of one signal wire, or not connecting that signal to the
connector pin, or with a missing connector pin) to make them "cable select"
cables. Rather than you configuring your drives as master and slave, you
configure both to "cable select" and the lack of the signal from controller
to one of the drives makes it the slave. Unless you using a meter to test
each pin of the 40-pin connector at the mobo end to each matching pin in the
other 40-pin connectors to see if all have continuity or if one is open,
just test using a different 80-wire, 40-pin IDE cable.

It's also possible that the 80-wire, 40-pin cable is damaged so one of its
signal lines is disconnected. Just because it worked for years doesn't mean
it was a perfect cable. The connector's pins aren't soldered to the wires.
The ends of the connector's pins are simply split to scissor through the
insulation to make contact with the wired by squeesing the two tangs against
the wire. It's a mechanical connection. This is how, for example, a
Scotchlock splicing connector works. It isn't the most secure or durable
connection. Also, you pulling on the ribbon cable to remove the cable can
cause damage, especially if you wiggle from side to side to waddle the
connector off the header. That's why the better cables come with a nylon or
plastic pull tab that is part of the connector assembly and you pull on that
rather than the ribbon cable.

You never mentioned if the connectors were polarized. If the connector has
no tang (to slide into a matching notch in the shroud around the header
pins) or doesn't use a blank pin 20 (a solid spot where pin 20 would be but
with no hole for a pin to slide into), or the shroud around the headers is
depolarized by having notches on both sides, or the shroud is missing, it's
possible you attached the connector upside down. It's also possible you
didn't slide the connector all the way onto the header pins. It's also
possible one of the female pins inside the connector is loose and didn't
make good contact. Did you ever try a different 80-wire, 40-pin cable?
 
Desk said:
And the hard drive make/model is?
And the motherboard make/model is?
And the BIOS version is?
Click to expand...

All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
 
Brian said:
The 40 wire cable was used by older IDE drives. The 80 wire cable was
introduced with the advent of Ultra DMA/66, the extra wires serving to
reduce noise. Full story at
http://everything.explained.at/AT_Attachment/
Click to expand...
As I recall, with the 40 wire cable you needed to use the cable
select on the drive to indicate whether the drive was a slave or
master, but with the 80 wire cable it depended on which of the two
connectors on the cable it was plugged into.
Click to expand...

It should still show up fine on the 80 wire cable.
If the drive isn't recognised with the 80 wire cable then I'd suspect
either the cable or the IDE logic on the motherboard. So whilst you
might think the cable is fine I'd still try a different cable.
Click to expand...

Particularly as it isnt hard to get a cable that has the metal
prongs that bite into the ribbon invisibly bent over and just
the act of plugging in the drive can make the fault show up etc.
If you can't find anything wrong with it connected via your old 40
wire cable, then stick with that. I know that transfer rates will be
slower, but probably not so you'd notice.
Click to expand...

Makes more sense to work out why it no longer works.
 
ClueLess said:
Here is a strange problem, when I connect my hard disk using the 80
wire cable my computer does not recognize it.

It happened this way. I had to check another hard disk and so I
swapped the disks (IDE0) and found it was not recognized. Then I
connected the original hard disk and it was also not recognized. I
tried both the IDE0 and IDE1 channels with the same result. I tried
also other hard disks as well other 80 wire cables, still no go.

Then I found an old 40 wire cable and when connected with this, bingo,
all the hard disks are recognized.
Click to expand...
No pins broken, no hardware damage. All the cablea are in good
condition. In fact the machine for years worked with only the 80 wire cable.
Click to expand...

You can however get invisible damage wth ribbon cables.

The metal prongs that bite into the ribbon can get bent during manufacture
and the act of removing a drive and plugging in a different one can make the
cable faulty. So try a new 80 wire cable because that is mostly likely the problem.
How does this happen?
Click to expand...

See above.
 
richard said:
I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to
the same connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that
you CAN'T do that.
Click to expand...

Thats just plain wrong.
Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally
why it isn't recognized.
Click to expand...

Thats wrong too with the bios seeing the drive.
Did the other drives work elswhere?
Click to expand...
In the device manager, do you get any errors?
Click to expand...

It isnt even seen by the bios.
 
Signalling wise, there is no difference between a 40- and 80-wire IDE cable.
Click to expand...

Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables usually are not.
Only 40 signal wires are used in both. The 80-wire ribbon
cable has a ground wire between each signal wire to reduce cross-talk
and noise. It is still a 40-pin connector to a 40-pin connector setup.
Click to expand...

But isnt identical on the cable select question.
There are some cables that are physically altered (by snipping out a
very short length of one signal wire, or not connecting that signal
to the connector pin, or with a missing connector pin) to make them
"cable select" cables. Rather than you configuring your drives as
master and slave, you configure both to "cable select" and the lack
of the signal from controller to one of the drives makes it the slave.
Unless you using a meter to test each pin of the 40-pin
connector at the mobo end to each matching pin in the other 40-pin
connectors to see if all have continuity or if one is open, just test
using a different 80-wire, 40-pin IDE cable.
Click to expand...

That doesnt explain why the original drive isnt seen anymore.
 
Wrong. 80 wire cables are usually cable select cables, 40 wire cables
usually are not.
Click to expand...

Get an ohmmeter to test.

http://www.unitechelectronics.com/ide44pinout.gif
(this is the drive header, same pinout as for mobo header; remember to
mirror the image for ribbon connector)

Cable select cables require a pin (#28) not be connected on one of the
device-side connectors. I already mentioned in my prior post how this can
be done. The host adapter grounds this signal (i.e., when connected, the
device sees a ground line). If pin 28 is connected at the device (i.e., the
device sees this signal is grounded), it is the master device. If this pin
is open (floating), that device is the slave.

Just get a continuity tester to determine in pin 28 is open on one of the
device connectors on the ribbon cable. I have 80-wire, 40-pin cables that
have pin 28 connected and some where it is open. I have not seen a
predominance of one or the other to claim a "usual" configuration, and
because of this is why I test. It all depends on who manufactured the
cable. For example, the manufacturer might want that same 80-wire cable to
be usable in 40-wire cable setups so they feed pin 28 to all connectors.
The same holds true as to whether the connector or shroud are polarized with
a tang or notch, if depolarized by the absense of a tang or having notches
on both sides of the shroud, or if pin 20 is used as a polarizing key (by
pin 20 missing in header and blocked or solid in the connector). You have
to look. For cable-select or not enforced in the manufacture of a 80-wire
ribbon cable, you have to check with a continuity check.

If the connectors on the ribbon cable are color coded, I would suspect
cable-select was enforced through the physical connections as follows:

- Blue: Motherboard. Pin 28 connected.
- Black: Master device. Pin 28 connected.
- Gray: Slave device. Pin 28 not connected.

But I'd still check pin 28 with a continuity tester to make sure. You may
not have cable-enforced cable-select with some 80-wire ribbon cables (i.e.,
pine 28 goes to all connectors) when you want to use cable-select on the
device jumpers. You may not want cable-enforced cable-select if you are
using jumpers on the devices to configure them as master and slave. Whether
you have a cable-select cable is something you should really test.
 
All irrelevant given that the original hard drive isnt recognised anymore.
Click to expand...
Any information is useful at this point. It may be a known problem but
without knowing what he's got the chances of finding out are less than zero.
 
richard said:
I'm amazed that you could even get the 40 wire cable to connect to the same
connector as the 80 wire. They're generally designed so that you CAN'T do
that.
Click to expand...

Connectors are the same for the 80 as the 40
Was the first drive you checked properly initialized and formatted per
maniufacturer's instructions with the provided disk? That's generally why
it isn't recognized. Did the other drives work elswhere?
Click to expand...

The bios should see it if it's configured right via
jumpers/connector/etc. Formatting or not does not matter
In the device manager, do you get any errors?
Click to expand...

If the drive on ide0 isn't seen, how can he boot to Windows, much less
check DevMgr?

n0i
 
VanguardLH wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Click to expand...
<which is qualified in a following paragraph regarding cable select>
Click to expand...

So that claim is just plain wrong. There is in fact that very real difference.
Get an ohmmeter to test.
Click to expand...

Dont need one. I use the ATA standard.

<reams of you proving what I said flushed where it belongs>
 
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