Printing fails after surge

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bob
  • Start date Start date
B

Bob

After being hit by a major surge, I cannot print anymore. The surge
damaged the partition table and made most of my programs inaccessible.
It also apparently damaged the power supply. It also seems to have
changed the default printer to my fax instead of the laser printer. I
reset the default printer to the laser instead of the fax but the
browsers still keep trying to send the pages to the fax. Test page
prints just fine. What's up?
 
Bob said:
After being hit by a major surge, I cannot print anymore. The surge
damaged the partition table and made most of my programs inaccessible.
It also apparently damaged the power supply. It also seems to have
changed the default printer to my fax instead of the laser printer. I
reset the default printer to the laser instead of the fax but the
browsers still keep trying to send the pages to the fax. Test page
prints just fine. What's up?
Click to expand...

If the surge damaged your partition table and made most
of your programs inaccessible then it's time to reload
Windows, preferably on a new hard disk. If you intend
to keep the old disk then you must check it with the diagnostic
program made available on the manufacturer's home site.
 
If problem is from a surge, then you have hardware damage. If a
partition table has only changed, then it was not a surge. A surge
means you cannot even see the partition table to see a change.
Furthermore, destructive surges occur typically once every 8 years.

If a power supply caused damage to hardware, then that power supply
was defective when purchased; a problem common with clone computers
whose power supply is purchased using only two numbers - watts and
dollars.

Furthermore to have hardware damage, that hardware must have both an
incoming and outgoing electrical path. Disk drives (properly
installed) don't meet that requirement. Too often, mythical power
surges are blamed on what was really only a manufacturing defect.

A likely scenario: power supply was defective - missing essential
functions. Therefore when it failed, power supply damaged other
components. However based upon so little facts and no numbers, this
and every other post can only speculate.

Minimally acceptable system manufacturers provide comprehensive
hardware diagnostics with the computer and on their web site. Do you
have hardware problems? Measuring power supply voltages (purple, red,
orange, and yellow wires) with a 3.5 digit multimeter and executing
comprehensive hardware diagnostics are first tasks performed. Then
numbers are reported here for further information.
 
It is entirely possible that the OP is correct in his report,
namely that his disk did suffer some non-fatal damage
because of a surge. See below.

w_tom said:
If problem is from a surge, then you have hardware damage. If a
partition table has only changed, then it was not a surge.
Click to expand...

When a PC gets zapped by a spike or a surge then the damage
cannot be predicted. It could be major, e.g. destruction of a
disk, or it could be minor, e.g. altering a few bits on the disk
surface. Spikes and surges cause electromagnetic pulses that
travel through the air. They can be picked up by any electronic
circuit, including a hard disk controller. This is why your radio
crackles when lightning strikes. This is why the EMP from a nuclear
bomb will fry just about all electronic circuits, regardless of
their connection to a power grid or to earth.
A surge means you cannot even see the partition table to see a change.
Furthermore, destructive surges occur typically once every 8 years.
Click to expand...

This depends entirely on the electricity supply. In a UPS
environment you should never get surges. In an environment
with lots of lightning activity, branches falling on overhead lines
etc. you will get plenty. To quote a figure of 8 years for the whole
earth is a gross oversimplification. I have been looking after more
than 1000 PCs for more than ten years and have yet to see a
destructive surge.
If a power supply caused damage to hardware, then that power supply
was defective when purchased; a problem common with clone computers
whose power supply is purchased using only two numbers - watts and
dollars.
Click to expand...

Surges and spikes can traverse a power supply. A power supply
transmits energy from its primary to its secondary side. If you
apply a sharp spike to the primary side then it can be transmitted
to the secondary side. Furthermore, the secondary side can be
affected by an EMP, causing it to malfunction and fry the PC's
circuitry.
Furthermore to have hardware damage, that hardware must have both an
incoming and outgoing electrical path.
Click to expand...

The path can be wireless - see above.
 
Pegasus said:
If the surge damaged your partition table and made most
of your programs inaccessible then it's time to reload
Windows, preferably on a new hard disk. If you intend
to keep the old disk then you must check it with the diagnostic
program made available on the manufacturer's home site.
Click to expand...

Can't I fix it with Partition Magic?
 
Bob said:
Can't I fix it with Partition Magic?
Click to expand...

Partition Magic is a program that resizes partitions. It does not
fix things. Before you do anything else, you MUST run a
diagnostic program.
 
Pegasus said:
Partition Magic is a program that resizes partitions. It does not
fix things. Before you do anything else, you MUST run a
diagnostic program.
Click to expand...

What sort of diagnostic program? Chkdsk won't do? Chkdsk says the drive
is fine.

The programs have all been reloaded on C: and everything is pretty much
working. I think the power supply is damaged though.

The guy at the computer store told me PM fixes damaged partition tables.
 
Bob said:
What sort of diagnostic program? Chkdsk won't do? Chkdsk says the drive
is fine.

The programs have all been reloaded on C: and everything is pretty much
working. I think the power supply is damaged though.

The guy at the computer store told me PM fixes damaged partition tables.
Click to expand...

I quote from my first response: "You must check it with the diagnostic
program made available on the disk manufacturer's home site."

Partition Magic's repair ability is limited to fixing some obvious
errors such as glaringly incorrect sector numbers.
 
w_tom said:
If problem is from a surge, then you have hardware damage. If a
partition table has only changed, then it was not a surge. A surge
means you cannot even see the partition table to see a change.
Click to expand...

I can see the F: drive, but it acts weird. It claims to be 2.5 GB full
but there is nothing on it. The 2.5 GB is the programs, which are now
invisible. If I try to add anything, it acts bizarre and fills up right
away. Let's say I install Yahoo Messenger to F:. There is 5 GB free, but
it rapidly claims there is not enough room. F: partition is acting very
bizarre. chkdsk says it is fine.
Furthermore, destructive surges occur typically once every 8 years.

If a power supply caused damage to hardware, then that power supply
was defective when purchased; a problem common with clone computers
whose power supply is purchased using only two numbers - watts and
dollars.

Furthermore to have hardware damage, that hardware must have both an
incoming and outgoing electrical path. Disk drives (properly
installed) don't meet that requirement. Too often, mythical power
surges are blamed on what was really only a manufacturing defect.

A likely scenario: power supply was defective - missing essential
functions. Therefore when it failed, power supply damaged other
components. However based upon so little facts and no numbers, this
and every other post can only speculate.
Click to expand...

Actually surges damage and destroy power supplies constantly in these
parts. Constantly.
Minimally acceptable system manufacturers provide comprehensive
hardware diagnostics with the computer and on their web site. Do you
have hardware problems? Measuring power supply voltages (purple, red,
orange, and yellow wires) with a 3.5 digit multimeter and executing
comprehensive hardware diagnostics are first tasks performed. Then
numbers are reported here for further information.
Click to expand...

I need a new one, it is that simple.
 
Pegasus said:
It is entirely possible that the OP is correct in his report,
namely that his disk did suffer some non-fatal damage
because of a surge. See below.



When a PC gets zapped by a spike or a surge then the damage
cannot be predicted. It could be major, e.g. destruction of a
disk, or it could be minor, e.g. altering a few bits on the disk
surface. Spikes and surges cause electromagnetic pulses that
travel through the air. They can be picked up by any electronic
circuit, including a hard disk controller. This is why your radio
crackles when lightning strikes. This is why the EMP from a nuclear
bomb will fry just about all electronic circuits, regardless of
their connection to a power grid or to earth.


This depends entirely on the electricity supply. In a UPS
environment you should never get surges.
Click to expand...

This one went right through the UPS. I understand that the APC UPS's are
not industrial strength. I just spent $83 on an industrial strength
surge suppressor for the wall. This place is surge city. Plus the
building is faulty.

In an environment
with lots of lightning activity, branches falling on overhead lines
etc. you will get plenty. To quote a figure of 8 years for the whole
earth is a gross oversimplification. I have been looking after more
than 1000 PCs for more than ten years and have yet to see a
destructive surge.
Click to expand...

We get them all the time, but all they do is destroy and damage modems
and power supplies and also cause software damage and file corruption.
Surges and spikes can traverse a power supply. A power supply
transmits energy from its primary to its secondary side. If you
apply a sharp spike to the primary side then it can be transmitted
to the secondary side. Furthermore, the secondary side can be
affected by an EMP, causing it to malfunction and fry the PC's
circuitry.
Click to expand...

The power supply needs replacing. I am thinking of spending $100.
 
A spike went through the UPS? Of course. Computer connected
directly to AC mains via that UPS. Does a UPS relay stop lightning?
Of course not. UPS does not even claim protection from that type of
transient. UPS also does not stop, block, or absorb what three miles
of sky could not. Effective electronics protection never stops
lightning. Effective protection does what Franklin demonstrated in
1752. Effective protection is about earthing.

Your telco has a $multi-mllion computer connected to overhead wires
everywhere in town. Do they shut down phone service during
thunderstorms? Of course not. Even the telco does not stop, block, or
absorb surges. Effective protectors do not block or absorb. The telco
uses single point earthing to give lightning what it wants - as
Franklin demonstrated more than 200 years ago. Effective protection
means lightning strikes wires connected directly to electronics -
without damage.

To claim that surges are not predictable is absurd. We do it
regularly in most every town. Notice 40 and 25 direct strikes annually
to WTC and Empire State Building without TV and FM radio electronics
damage. When damage does occur, then a human uses that damage to
correct a defective protection system.

Look inside plug-in UPSes. Is that silly one inch part going to stop
or absorb what three miles of sky could not. Those who recommend
plug-in UPSes are making that claim. Effective protectors neither
block nor absorb such transients. That UPS does claim surge protection.
But then it forgets to mention one point. It does not claim to
protect from surges that typically cause the damage. UPS hopes you
will assume that protection from one type of surge is protection from
all types of surges..

Why are modems so easily damaged? Lightning has found a path to
earth via that modem because a human has failed to earth lightning
where transients enter a building. It is routine to suffer direct
strikes and suffer no damage. But the most critical and essential
component of that protection system is earth ground. What is missing
at a building's service entrance? Single point earth ground and short
connections to that earthing. What makes that 'less than 10 foot'
connection? A 'whole house' protector.

Do surges transverse a power supply? Why? That power supply's
isolation is rated at thousands of volts. Meanwhile a wire completely
bypasses that supply. Surges do not transverse a properly constructed
supply simply because that bypass wire is an easier and therefore
common transient path. Again, surge paths are quite predictable which
is why protection

How are modems typically damaged? Lightning strikes overhead wires
down the street. To seek what? Earth ground. Incoming on AC mains.
Into a building that does not have properly earthed 'whole house'
protection. Into computer, bypass power supply, through motherboard,
modem, and out to earth ground via phone line. Why does it find earth
ground on a phone line? Because the telco installs an earthed 'whole
house' protector on your incoming phone line. Modem becomes a
connection to earth ground if a human fails to install a 'whole house'
protector on AC mains at the service entrance. Electronics damage from
lightning is directly traceable to human failure - as was even
understood 70 years ago. There is no 'industrial strength' protector.
Proetction is not a protector. Protection is earth ground. A
protector is nothing more than a connection to protection. That
plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide such protection.. A
protector is only as effecive as its earth ground.
 
As stated before, minimally acceptable system manufacturers provide
comprehensive hardware diagnostics with computer and on their web site.
If computer manufacturer did not provide them, then get those
diagnostics from the disk drive manufacturer. We don't yet have
sufficient information to say why or how those drives are working.
Furthermore, which disk drive computer is controlling the F: drive? If
F: drive is a slave, then another disk drive computer (the master)
maybe reporting that 2.5 Gb.

Partition information is stored in each disk drive. To have
partition damage, the disk drive computer had to change that data.
Why? Therein lies another reason why information from disk drive
hardware diagnostic is useful.
 
w_tom said:
A spike went through the UPS? Of course. Computer connected
directly to AC mains via that UPS. Does a UPS relay stop lightning?
Of course not. UPS does not even claim protection from that type of
transient. UPS also does not stop, block, or absorb what three miles
of sky could not. Effective electronics protection never stops
lightning. Effective protection does what Franklin demonstrated in
1752. Effective protection is about earthing.

Your telco has a $multi-mllion computer connected to overhead wires
everywhere in town. Do they shut down phone service during
thunderstorms? Of course not. Even the telco does not stop, block, or
absorb surges. Effective protectors do not block or absorb. The telco
uses single point earthing to give lightning what it wants - as
Franklin demonstrated more than 200 years ago. Effective protection
means lightning strikes wires connected directly to electronics -
without damage.

To claim that surges are not predictable is absurd. We do it
regularly in most every town. Notice 40 and 25 direct strikes annually
to WTC and Empire State Building without TV and FM radio electronics
damage. When damage does occur, then a human uses that damage to
correct a defective protection system.

Look inside plug-in UPSes. Is that silly one inch part going to stop
or absorb what three miles of sky could not. Those who recommend
plug-in UPSes are making that claim. Effective protectors neither
block nor absorb such transients. That UPS does claim surge protection.
But then it forgets to mention one point. It does not claim to
protect from surges that typically cause the damage. UPS hopes you
will assume that protection from one type of surge is protection from
all types of surges..

Why are modems so easily damaged? Lightning has found a path to
earth via that modem because a human has failed to earth lightning
where transients enter a building. It is routine to suffer direct
strikes and suffer no damage. But the most critical and essential
component of that protection system is earth ground. What is missing
at a building's service entrance? Single point earth ground and short
connections to that earthing. What makes that 'less than 10 foot'
connection? A 'whole house' protector.

Do surges transverse a power supply? Why? That power supply's
isolation is rated at thousands of volts. Meanwhile a wire completely
bypasses that supply. Surges do not transverse a properly constructed
supply simply because that bypass wire is an easier and therefore
common transient path. Again, surge paths are quite predictable which
is why protection

How are modems typically damaged? Lightning strikes overhead wires
down the street. To seek what? Earth ground. Incoming on AC mains.
Into a building that does not have properly earthed 'whole house'
protection. Into computer, bypass power supply, through motherboard,
modem, and out to earth ground via phone line. Why does it find earth
ground on a phone line? Because the telco installs an earthed 'whole
house' protector on your incoming phone line. Modem becomes a
connection to earth ground if a human fails to install a 'whole house'
protector on AC mains at the service entrance. Electronics damage from
lightning is directly traceable to human failure - as was even
understood 70 years ago. There is no 'industrial strength' protector.
Proetction is not a protector. Protection is earth ground. A
protector is nothing more than a connection to protection. That
plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide such protection.. A
protector is only as effecive as its earth ground.
Click to expand...


Amen.
 
w_tom said:
As stated before, minimally acceptable system manufacturers provide
comprehensive hardware diagnostics with computer and on their web site.
If computer manufacturer did not provide them, then get those
diagnostics from the disk drive manufacturer. We don't yet have
sufficient information to say why or how those drives are working.
Furthermore, which disk drive computer is controlling the F: drive? If
F: drive is a slave, then another disk drive computer (the master)
maybe reporting that 2.5 Gb.

Partition information is stored in each disk drive. To have
partition damage, the disk drive computer had to change that data.
Why? Therein lies another reason why information from disk drive
hardware diagnostic is useful.
Click to expand...

Not quite. There are several flaws that can make a disk
unusable:
a) An inappropriate data change, e.g. in the partition table.
Programs like chkdsk.exe will identify this and perhaps fix it.
You suggest that a hardware diagnostic is useful in this case.
It isn't - the diagnostic program neither knows nor care about
disk file system structure.
b) A damaged disk surface. The manufacturer's diagnostic
program will identify such flaws.
c) Damaged electronics. Again the manufacturer's diagnostic
program will identify such a flaw.
 
Another thing that can corrupt a partition table - CMOS parameter
changes cause the BIOS to access drive incorrectly. Then CHKDSK
further damages the disk.
 
w_tom said:
As stated before, minimally acceptable system manufacturers provide
comprehensive hardware diagnostics with computer and on their web site.
If computer manufacturer did not provide them, then get those
diagnostics from the disk drive manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Maxtor 91531U3

We don't yet have
sufficient information to say why or how those drives are working.
Click to expand...

Single drive with numerous partitions. One partition is apparently
damaged but everything else seems to be ok.
Furthermore, which disk drive computer is controlling the F: drive?
Click to expand...

One drive. Partitions are C:, D:, E:, F:, G:. H: existed but was
apparently destroyed by the surge and its contents were appended to
another drive. F: partition is not functional. All partitions NTFS.

If
F: drive is a slave, then another disk drive computer (the master)
maybe reporting that 2.5 Gb.
Click to expand...

No, all partitions are on one drive. There were 2.5 GB programs on the
disk before the surge. 2.5 GB is still filled, implying the programs are
still somehow there, but they seem to be invisible, as you cannot see
them (drive appears empty). I assume the programs are there but not
visible due to damaged partition table.
Partition information is stored in each disk drive.
Click to expand...

Ok...

To have
partition damage, the disk drive computer had to change that data.
Click to expand...

Ok, surges can damage partition tables. Not much else does, other than a
PM type program.
Why? Therein lies another reason why information from disk drive
hardware diagnostic is useful.
Click to expand...

Ok, from Maxtor site?
 
Pegasus said:
Not quite. There are several flaws that can make a disk
unusable:
a) An inappropriate data change, e.g. in the partition table.
Programs like chkdsk.exe will identify this and perhaps fix it.
Click to expand...

Chkdsk is reporting that F: partition is clean. But I think I need to
replace this power supply, as a damaged power supply seems to cause file
corruption over time.
You suggest that a hardware diagnostic is useful in this case.
It isn't - the diagnostic program neither knows nor care about
disk file system structure.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
Pegasus said:
Not quite. There are several flaws that can make a disk
unusable:
a) An inappropriate data change, e.g. in the partition table.
Programs like chkdsk.exe will identify this and perhaps fix it.
You suggest that a hardware diagnostic is useful in this case.
It isn't - the diagnostic program neither knows nor care about
disk file system structure.
b) A damaged disk surface. The manufacturer's diagnostic
program will identify such flaws.
c) Damaged electronics. Again the manufacturer's diagnostic
program will identify such a flaw.
Click to expand...

What about Check-It?
 
w_tom said:
A spike went through the UPS? Of course. Computer connected
directly to AC mains via that UPS. Does a UPS relay stop lightning?
Of course not. UPS does not even claim protection from that type of
transient. UPS also does not stop, block, or absorb what three miles
of sky could not. Effective electronics protection never stops
lightning. Effective protection does what Franklin demonstrated in
1752. Effective protection is about earthing.
Click to expand...

I understand that industry does not even use APC style UPS's. They use
industrial strength UPS's, which cost about 2X as much.
Your telco has a $multi-mllion computer connected to overhead wires
everywhere in town. Do they shut down phone service during
thunderstorms? Of course not. Even the telco does not stop, block, or
absorb surges. Effective protectors do not block or absorb. The telco
uses single point earthing to give lightning what it wants - as
Franklin demonstrated more than 200 years ago. Effective protection
means lightning strikes wires connected directly to electronics -
without damage.

To claim that surges are not predictable is absurd. We do it
regularly in most every town. Notice 40 and 25 direct strikes annually
to WTC and Empire State Building without TV and FM radio electronics
damage. When damage does occur, then a human uses that damage to
correct a defective protection system.

Look inside plug-in UPSes. Is that silly one inch part going to stop
or absorb what three miles of sky could not. Those who recommend
plug-in UPSes are making that claim. Effective protectors neither
block nor absorb such transients. That UPS does claim surge protection.
But then it forgets to mention one point. It does not claim to
protect from surges that typically cause the damage. UPS hopes you
will assume that protection from one type of surge is protection from
all types of surges..

Why are modems so easily damaged? Lightning has found a path to
earth via that modem because a human has failed to earth lightning
where transients enter a building. It is routine to suffer direct
strikes and suffer no damage. But the most critical and essential
component of that protection system is earth ground. What is missing
at a building's service entrance? Single point earth ground and short
connections to that earthing. What makes that 'less than 10 foot'
connection? A 'whole house' protector.
Click to expand...

This apartment building is old and apparently lacks a surge suppressor.
Ever since I moved here it has been surge city, plus I think a lot of
other BS like sags, spikes, brownouts, bla bla.
Do surges transverse a power supply? Why? That power supply's
isolation is rated at thousands of volts. Meanwhile a wire completely
bypasses that supply. Surges do not transverse a properly constructed
supply simply because that bypass wire is an easier and therefore
common transient path. Again, surge paths are quite predictable which
is why protection

How are modems typically damaged? Lightning strikes overhead wires
down the street. To seek what? Earth ground. Incoming on AC mains.
Into a building that does not have properly earthed 'whole house'
protection. Into computer, bypass power supply, through motherboard,
modem, and out to earth ground via phone line. Why does it find earth
ground on a phone line? Because the telco installs an earthed 'whole
house' protector on your incoming phone line. Modem becomes a
connection to earth ground if a human fails to install a 'whole house'
protector on AC mains at the service entrance. Electronics damage from
lightning is directly traceable to human failure - as was even
understood 70 years ago. There is no 'industrial strength' protector.
Proetction is not a protector. Protection is earth ground. A
protector is nothing more than a connection to protection. That
plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide such protection.. A
protector is only as effecive as its earth ground.
Click to expand...

Very interesting info...
 
Does that UPS make a short connection to earth ground? Earthing
provides effective transient protection. There is no plug-in UPS that
provides effective transient protection. Notice a point made
previously. The protector is not protection. Protection is earth
ground. The protector is effective when it connects a destructive
transient to protection - earth ground.

Polyphaser is an industry benchmark - an industrial protector
manufacturer. Their application notes are highly regarded. What does
Polyphaser discuss - their products? Of course not. Polyphaser is
about effective protection. Their app notes discuss earthing ...
extensively:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.aspx

You keep going to protectors as if they were 'magic' devices. That
one sentence is where we begin. A protector is only as effective as
its earth ground.

Effective protectors have manufacturer names such as Square D, GE,
Polyphaser, Intermatic, Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, and Siemens. APC is
missing from that list for very good reason. Notice that APC also
forgets to mention earthing..

For residential protection, even Home Depot (Intermatic) and Lowes
(GE and Cutler-Hammer) sell effective protectors. I have never seen an
effective protector sold in Staples, Sears, Radio Shack, Best Buy,
Walmart, or Circuit City.

Protector's 'industrial strength' is about qualtiy of its earth
ground - what APC does not connect to and does not discuss.
 
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