Power surge safety

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Happy

What is the best way to prevent against power surge problems? (obviously the
first is to have the proper surge protector, and use it properly)
Is it better to shut off your computer, put it in hibernate, put it in stand
by, or leave on? What are the risks?
I have lost two computers in the last 5 years, and want to avoid a repeat.
 
The surest way is to uplug the system. You did not mention whether or not
your internet connection is passing through a surge protector also.
 
Is it better to shut off your computer, put it in hibernate, put it in stand
by, or leave on?

None of the above protect you. Computers, like TVs don't turn off. A switch normally switches 1 of three wires and can spark anyway. Nothing will protect you from a lightening strike. Power surges are caused by many things (don't live near factories). A lightening caused power surge is caused by lightening a long way away.

In first world countries you don't need to worry about it. I believe many US people have third world power. If so yank all plugs out. Only my computer is protected and I only pull the plug out sometimes. My other electrical devices I don't bother and they don't complain and they aren't protected (a TV is 1/8th the price of a computer).
 
Happy said:
What is the best way to prevent against power surge problems? (obviously the
first is to have the proper surge protector, and use it properly)
Is it better to shut off your computer, put it in hibernate, put it in stand
by, or leave on? What are the risks?
Click to expand...

Only fully safe way is to unplug ALL plugs. (Ive seen systems zapped via
the ethernet plug and via the ground wire!)

Shutdown is marginally more safe than hibernate. (Hibernate allows
certain things to wake up the computer.)

Finally, step AWAY from the computer!
 
What is the best way to prevent against power surge problems? (obviously the
first is to have the proper surge protector, and use it properly)
Is it better to shut off your computer, put it in hibernate, put it in stand
by, or leave on? What are the risks?
I have lost two computers in the last 5 years, and want to avoid a repeat.
Click to expand...

There is a BIOS setting on most systems that lets you choose what the
system should do if there is a loss and subsequent return of power. The
default setting on most systems is to start up again. I change that setting
to "stay off."

Reason: When power is restored from an outage, there may be several fits of
on again /off again until it returns completely. Watched one system, one
time trying to honor the default setting. It was painful to see and now
make a point of changing that setting.
 
Happy said:
What is the best way to prevent against power surge problems? (obviously the
first is to have the proper surge protector, and use it properly)
Is it better to shut off your computer, put it in hibernate, put it in stand
by, or leave on? What are the risks?
I have lost two computers in the last 5 years, and want to avoid a repeat.
Click to expand...
I think the others have covered the best option..unplug everything.
But short of that you could use an uninterruptible power source.
A good UPS will provide enough battery time to shut your system down
gracefully during a power outage and provide "clean" power to your
system. Look for one that kicks in when the power goes to high OR
too low (brownout). Some also have software included that will
automatically shutdown your system for you.

gls858
 
In
What is the best way to prevent against power surge problems?
(obviously the first is to have the proper surge protector, and use
it properly)
Is it better to shut off your computer, put it in hibernate, put it
in stand by, or leave on? What are the risks?
I have lost two computers in the last 5 years, and want to avoid a
repeat.
Click to expand...

In addition to all the other valid information given you should consider
replacing your surge protector every once in a while. MOST surge protection
devices have a light on them that make you think they are working. However,
after a single surge the protection offered by the device is minimal if any
yet the light will remain on and be happy to allow you to think that you're
still protected. It's been my best interest, since days of yore, to not
worry about expense and to use both a UPS and a surge protector. I've never
lost a computer to a power surge though I've replaced a number of
motherboards and chips with funny burnt ion smells that other people have
brought by. I buy the best protection I can at the place I'm shopping and
worry about the price later. $150 is a small price to pay to keep a $2500
custom PC protected. Often times I'll cheat and put the surge protector on
one side of the UPS and one on the other end where the power leaves prior to
going into my computer. A bit much? Probably but I can't think of any good
reason to not do so.

Galen
--

"My mind rebels at stagnation. Give me problems, give me work, give me
the most abstruse cryptogram or the most intricate analysis, and I am
in my own proper atmosphere. I can dispense then with artificial
stimulants. But I abhor the dull routine of existence. I crave for
mental exaltation." -- Sherlock Holmes
 
These are a bunch of great solutions! After the past problems I have had, I
am going to be safe as well. But, do you mean you mean you unplug every
nite, or just when there is a storm in the area?
I will check the BIOS, I think that's why I lost the last one, a series of
off & on in a short space of time.
Any suggestions on software for use with a UPS?
 
Just need drivers (so windows and the UPS can talk to each other). Windows supports UPS.
 
My 2¢ worth:
a. Have an electrician (1) check your home electrical system for proper
grounding. The National Electrical Code now requires that all wiring
entering a residence be connected to the main grounding device [used to
be telephones had their own separate ground rod (I have a DirectTV
Satellite Dish wire, TV rooftop antenna, and telephone line all
connected to a satellite receiver which in turn is connected to a DVD
player, stereo/home theater receiver, VCR, and CD Player]; (2) Install
a whole house surge protector [in the main electrical box or at the
meter base](this protects against outside power surges inbound via
electric lines). That way the in surge protectors at the equipment
protect against relatively minor surges generated inside the house. Two
of the reasons for the code changes are that (1) so much electronic
equipment is now interconnected to several sources of potential surges
[as I said above, satellite dish (18 AWG copper wire), telephone line
(four to eight 24-26 AWG copper wires), and electrical power (usually 12
or 14 or 16 AWG copper wire), and note I do not mention cable service.
(2) Most surge protectors divert the surge [an electrical current] to
the building ground. These currents, like water, follow the easiest path
.. Another way to phrase it is that electrical current will flow to the
path of least resistance. That means that if you have a telephone line
connected to a ground rod which is separate from the ground rod to which
the electrical current is connected and a satellite dish, etc, AND
they are all connected to one of your electronic devices you have the
possibility of erroneous flow and burnout.
b. No matter what, a dead-on direct lightning strike will get most of
your connected stuff no matter what you do.
Gene K
 
Just when there is a storm occurring that brings the possibility of a
lighting strike.
Gene K
 
If the strike is close enough, even disconnecting the power cord may not
prevent damage. That is the one thing that just cannot be helped except by
insurance and keeping a backup on media stored elsewhere.
 
You have received numerous erroneous responses often
promoted by myths and clearly not based in first learning the
science.

For example, if nearby strikes were so destructive even to
unplugged equipment, then every TV and every car radio is
damaged during every nearby strike. Notice an anomaly in the
assumption? Most of your responses were only personal
speculation.

The human is one of the most unreliable entities in the
home. He is only available, at most, 1/3rd of a day. He
cannot unplug everything including phone, smoke detector,
dimmer switch, or dishwasher. And then there is the limit on
number of times a wall outlet can be reconnected. Too many
reasons say unplugging is not practical nor effective.

Your own assumption, "obviously the first is to have the
proper surge protector, and use it properly" is classic junk
science reasoning. You have assumed surge protector and surge
protection are same. They are not. A surge protection
'system' may or may not have a surge protector. The surge
protector is not surge protection AND in some cases is not
even necessary in that 'system'.

Surge protection is earth ground. Not Me accurately
introduced the concept. The one component that every surge
protection 'system' must have is a single point earth ground.
BTW - why single point? So that surges do not enter a
building via ground.

What do those grossly overpriced, undersized, and
ineffective plug-in protectors not mention? Earth ground.
Why? They do not even claim to provide effective protection.
They hope you will assume "surge protector = surge
protection". You did just that. You promoted a myth that has
people paying $15 and $50 per appliance for ineffective
protection. Effective solution costs about $1 per appliance.

BTW, why do some recommend periodically replacing
protectors? Because the plug-in protectors that don't have
earth ground, are also grossly expensive and undersize
protection. Too few joules. Effective protection is also
properly sized. Plug-in protectors get recommended by the
naive when the protector is grossly undersized - and must
frequently be replaced.

Even before WWII, buildings were protected from nearby and
direct lightning strikes without damage. Your telco connects
a $multi-million computer to overhead wires everywhere in
town. Do they unplug that switching computer during every
thunderstorm? Of course not. No damage from direct or nearby
lightning strikes. They don't use plug-in protectors. They
earth - what those ineffective protectors hope you don't learn
about. Protection is about connecting to earth ground before
a destructive transient can enter the building. Protection
that typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Appliances already contain any protection that works at the
appliance. Just another detail those plug-in manufacturer
forgot to mention. That internal protection assumes YOU have
earthed a direct lightning strike before it can enter the
building. If you don't, then that internal appliance
protection may be overwhelmed. Again, Not Me reported how
effective protection, 24/7, without human intervention, makes
nearby and direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Even Home
Depot sells the Intermatic IG1240RC 'whole house' protector
for at least 10 years now. Lowes now sells equivalent models
from Cutler Hammer and the new GE product (the old GE
protector was undersized). Other effective units are sold by
Leviton, Square D and so many other - for so many decades.
This is well proven stuff. However too many humans are just
experts - facts and the underlying concepts be damned. They
saw the expression "surge protector" on a retail store shelve
and now are experts on effective protection? Notice the
manufacturer never mentions THE most critical component in
every protection 'system': single point earthing.

'Whole house' protectors, properly earthed, are so effective
that your phone company installs one, for free, where their
line enters your building. Your cable needs no 'whole house'
protector because it makes a direct connection to earth
ground. That is what the effective protector does. It
connects 'less than 10 foot' to a single point earth ground -
THE protection. A protector must make a short, direct, and
independent connection to single point earthing.

What so many never mentioned: earthing. What those grossly
overpriced, pathetically undersized plug-in protectors don't
even discuss: earthing. No earth ground means no effective
protection. And that, sir, is your bottom line. A surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earthing
is what keeps lightning from overwhelming the protection
already installed in appliances. Effective protection means
no appliance damage from any lighting - as has been proven by
man most everywhere in the world since long before WWII.

BTW, that BIOS recommendation should be unnecessary. A
power supply controller on a properly designed motherboard
must lock out the system when such power cycling problems
occur.

The UPS - is only for data protection from blackouts and
extreme brownouts. It does claim to provide hardware
protection. And then we look at missing facts. It does not
claim protection from the one type of transient that typically
damages electronics. Again, it is the things they forget to
mention - ie earth ground - that says a UPS does not provide
effective hardware protection. That UPS is only for data
protection.
 
A decent, if derisive, description of the issues. The only thing I'd add
is that most surge protectors actually do have an MOV in them, which
clips off the amplitude above/below a specified level. One problem out
there, though, is that there is a difference between a surge protector
and a power strip - but they look the same. Many folks buy power strips
that do nothing for clipping off extreme signal amplitude, thinking that
they're getting surge protection - because they're much cheaper.

grep
 
"Most surge protectors actually do have an MOV in them,
which clips off the amplitude above/ [not]below a specified
level." Correct. And now we define the circuit that includes
those MOVs. A destructive transient seeks earth ground. It
comes down AC mains. MOV adjacent to computer sees same
voltage on both leads. IOW the 100+ amp transient creates no
voltage across the MOV. With no voltage difference, the MOV
sees nothing. Meanwhile that transient passes destructively
through an adjacent computer - powered on or off.

Or a destructive transient travels down only black (hot) AC
wire. What does the MOV (adjacent to computer) do? Shunt
(short, connect) that transient to all other wires. Now the
transient has even more paths to find earth ground
destructively via the computer - because the MOV was too close
to transistors.

BTW, this AC mains transient is a most common source of
computer modem damage. Incoming on AC mains. Outgoing to
earth ground via phone line. MOV either sees no voltage
difference and does nothing, or MOV provides that destructive
transients with more wires to enter and damage the adjacent
(and powered off) computer.

IOW a plug-in protector can even contribute to damage of the
adjacent computer. So a manufacturer does not to discuss this
or earthing. He hopes others will 'assume' the MOVs stop,
block, or absorb the transient. They even hope you will
assume the protector is a series mode device. Plug-in
protectors are shunt mode devices. Just more facts he prefers
we do not discuss.

MOVs do not provide protection. Every incoming wire must
connect to earth before entering the building. Some wires
connect directly to single point earth (ie CATV and satellite
dish). Other wires must make that earthing connection via a
surge protector (ie MOVs); the 'whole house' protector.
Protector does not provide protection. MOVs are effective
when a typically destructive transient is connected short
(less than 10 feet) to earth ground. IOW MOVs inside a power
strip are ineffective as well as undersized.

Nothing new in a concept that has been routine in telephone
switching centers (Central Office or CO) and radio
communication stations for long before WWII. For example, the
CO prefers each incoming wire earthed 50 meters (150 feet)
before the computer. (Notice facts provided with numbers.)
Separation provides better protection. Any protection
effective at an appliance is already inside that appliance.
Internal protection that assumes a building has all incoming
utility wires connected short to a common earth ground -
'whole house' protection.

An MOV that connect each incoming wire to earth ground is
effective. The MOV is also effective when it is properly
sized - sufficient joules. Since a plug-in protector provide
no effective earthing, then no reason to properly size the
MOV. Plug-in protectors are often undersized (too few joules)
as well as overpriced and ineffective. Such protectors are
very profitable for the manufacturer - as long as we don't
learn additional facts.
 
Salut/Hi grep,

le/on Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:38:01 -0500, tu disais/you said:-
A decent, if derisive, description of the issues.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I found the tone of his article to be mostly concerned to ridicule
others, with the information given being almost incidental!
The only thing I'd add is that most surge protectors actually do have an MOV in them, which
clips off the amplitude above/below a specified level.
Click to expand...

As long as the total pulse energy isn't greater than the rated capacity of
the unit, and the reaction speed of the high power shunt fast enough to
divert the pulse before it has done the damage.

For more information on this whole subject, see the website created by the
company called Zymax. They have a series of technical papers on the risks
and solutions. http://www.zymax.com

I live in an area where there is very high incidence of lightning strikes to
ground, and would have lost much equipment and data without proper
protection.
 
Hope I'm not too late getting back into this discussion. I have now changed
my settings to "stay off" in a power failure. See like a reasonable thing to
do. (suggested by Sharon F.) Are there any downsides to this? Why does the
operating system not have this as a default?
 
So your web server that takes $1,000,000 an hour in sales starts up even though all humans are still sleeeping after a 5 minute outage at 2AM. It is a computer setting not an Operating System setting. Windows allows you to change this computer setting. Or you can change it in your BIOS. Read the computer manual.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.microscum.com/mscommunity/
Happy said:
Hope I'm not too late getting back into this discussion. I have now changed
my settings to "stay off" in a power failure. See like a reasonable thing to
do. (suggested by Sharon F.) Are there any downsides to this? Why does the
operating system not have this as a default?
Click to expand...
 
BIOS is changed to keep computer powered off. You then
probe around inside that computer with a multimeter. 5 volts
on a purple wire from the power supply and at various points
... the best way to prevent against power surge problem?
Click to expand...

And yet electricity is still on motherboard? Where is this
BIOS created protection? No such protection is provided nor
claimed. Don't take my word for it. Measure that 'still
powered' connection yourself.

Sharon F felt something painful was being avoided by that
BIOS setting. However the power supply 'system' already has
protection from a :
several fits of on again /off again until it returns
completely
Click to expand...
speculated problem.

Again where are reasons why that BIOS setting change would
provide protection? Those reasons were not provided. No
technical reason said why a BIOS change would provide
protection. It was suggested only on speculation based upon
perceived 'pain'.

Changing the BIOS setting accomplished neither what your
original post asked nor solved Sharon F's speculated problem.
The original question was answered in a post that started:
You have received numerousl erroneous responses often
promoted by myths...
Click to expand...

How do you know? An informed post even provides numbers.
It explained concepts sometimes at the component level. It
did not just say how to avoid damage. It said *why* - for
numerous reasons and without wasting time being politically
correct. Your bottom line. If a post does not provide
numbers or specific technical facts, then it is probably
speculation - nothing more.

You have a choice. Wild speculation that some BIOS
setting is going to avoid hardware damage (without even
knowing why). Or a reply based in decades of technical
experience that has no patience with posts of irresponsible
speculation.

Your original question is not answered by BIOS changes - as
a meter measurement of that purple wire will demonstrate.
Hardware solutions were provided previously - even with a
model number for a solution. Furthermore, no, an adjacent
plug-in surge protector is not an obvious solution. The
adjacent protector can even contribute to damage of a powered
off computer. The effective solution is the well proven
solution - even before WWII.
 
Again where are reasons why that BIOS setting change would
provide protection? Those reasons were not provided. No
technical reason said why a BIOS change would provide
protection. It was suggested only on speculation based upon
perceived 'pain'.
Click to expand...

w_tom, I lived in a rural area at the time that happened. It was not
unusual for power to blink on and off several times before it was fully
restored. A computer that starts up again - gets part way through loading
and then has the power yanked - is at risk. Files and hardware from
improperly timed on/off cycles can suffer damage.

I should have had added in my post that this particular event is also what
moved me to finally spend the big bucks on battery backup (UPS) for my
computer components. That avoids those starts and stops of power but I
personally and still prefer the power off setting vs restart.

This topic has many layers to it. While the question sounds simple at first
glance, there are many different aspects to consider with lots of different
solutions and devices available to manage it.

Consequently a newsgroup post cannot cover all bases. However, this
particular group of answers ended up addressing several different
approaches for different kinds of power source problems (including yours).
All sums up to a good group effort, I would say.
 
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