Physical Duplication of Hard Drives

[Ted Lind]

I work for a non-profit that provides computer literacy training and
computers for low income people in our county. We refurbish about 600
computers per year for our clients. We want to change our method for loading
the hard disks on these systems. In searching the web, we have found there
are several brands and models of hard disk duplicating equipment.

We need to load the Windows operating system and the applications we use
onto a variety of hard disks in the computers that are donated to us. We
always have to open the system so pulling the hard disk to load it is not a
problem.

My problem is getting some advice from any one who does this kind of
operation. I am looking for a recommendation of equipment to use. I know
little about the equipment and cannot find much information on the Internet
other than each manufacturer's claims.

Units seem to range from low cost ~$900 for portable field units to a couple
of thousand for a desk top unit that will duplicate two drives. It is not
very clear to me which units are superior and cost effective. I am hoping
someone has experience doing this and could at least provide some pointers
on what to look for. Thanks.

 

[Eric Gisin]

I've done this with two PCs and Ghost. The master has one or two drives on the
primary channel, and the secondary channel's cable reaches the other PC so
that you don't have to remove its drive.

The most difficult problem is differing hardware will cause problems. Win 9X
will always come up with "found new hardware", which requires the CD and other
drivers.

Most dedicated duplicators are designed for people deploying hundreds of
identical PCs. Duplicating disks is a software problem, everyone has dual IDE.

| I work for a non-profit that provides computer literacy training and
| computers for low income people in our county. We refurbish about 600
| computers per year for our clients. We want to change our method for loading
| the hard disks on these systems. In searching the web, we have found there
| are several brands and models of hard disk duplicating equipment.
|
| We need to load the Windows operating system and the applications we use
| onto a variety of hard disks in the computers that are donated to us. We
| always have to open the system so pulling the hard disk to load it is not a
| problem.
|
| My problem is getting some advice from any one who does this kind of
| operation. I am looking for a recommendation of equipment to use. I know
| little about the equipment and cannot find much information on the Internet
| other than each manufacturer's claims.
|
| Units seem to range from low cost ~$900 for portable field units to a couple
| of thousand for a desk top unit that will duplicate two drives. It is not
| very clear to me which units are superior and cost effective. I am hoping
| someone has experience doing this and could at least provide some pointers
| on what to look for. Thanks.

 

[Ted Lind]

Actually the differing hardware is not an issue. Since we get donated
computers, most are different. We generate a load where we have removed most
of the drivers that will change. When we start the system we let windows
load the appropriate drivers. Occasionally, it loads the wrong drivers and
then we have to hunt down the right one and install it. This is kind of our
normal operating mode. I am more concerned that we can copy our load image
to disks of different manufacturer, size, etc. Since we also get a wide
variety of disks in our donations, having to duplicate only on identical
disks is not an option.

From what I have read, several of the physical duplicators can handle quite
a wide range of disks and still are able to copy the image to the disk. They
seem to work much the same way ghost does except they are much faster. Ghost
can handle the variety of disks we see.

 

[Rod Speed]

Actually the differing hardware is not an issue. Since we get donated
computers, most are different. We generate a load where we have removed most
of the drivers that will change. When we start the system we let windows
load the appropriate drivers. Occasionally, it loads the wrong drivers and
then we have to hunt down the right one and install it. This is kind of our
normal operating mode. I am more concerned that we can copy our load image
to disks of different manufacturer, size, etc. Since we also get a wide
variety of disks in our donations, having to duplicate only on identical
disks is not an option.

From what I have read, several of the physical duplicators can handle
quite a wide range of disks and still are able to copy the image to the
disk. They seem to work much the same way ghost does except they
are much faster. Ghost can handle the variety of disks we see.

You'd probably be better just dedicating one PC to the copying,
using Ghost on that. That way you would only have to plug in the
hard drive ribbon cable and power cable, boot that PC and have
it do the copy. You could automate the copy as part of the boot.
Just use a decent performance motherboard/cpu in that system.

Its unlikely that dedicated hardware is going to be significantly faster.

 

[Ted Lind]

The problem with Ghost used in the manner you suggest is you have to pay a
license fee for every computer you load this way. It comes to around $11
dollars a computer. That is a lot of money if you do a lot of computers.
Most people use Ghost for either a backup on a single computer or buy a
fixed number of licenses that cover all of their corporate computers. It is
expensive to use it to refurbish computers.

 

[Rod Speed]

The problem with Ghost used in the manner you suggest is you
have to pay a license fee for every computer you load this way.

Dunno, you can argue that you only need a single license
for the particular PC thats used to do the copying to each
disk drive. Thats the only PC its ever run on.

It comes to around $11 dollars a computer.
That is a lot of money if you do a lot of computers.

Sure, but I cant see how they can legally require
that with that specific approach to cloning a hard
drive where its only ever run in a single PC.

Most people use Ghost for either a backup on a single computer
or buy a fixed number of licenses that cover all of their corporate
computers. It is expensive to use it to refurbish computers.

Yes, but not to use it as I suggested.

 

[J.Clarke]

You can put forth your interpretation of their license terms but it is
certain that they will prevail if the software police come and visit
you. The license is very specific. They even tell you that the drive
you are cloning contains information which will allow it to be traced
back to the particular Ghost license that created it. One of the
versions includes a utility that allows you to look at that
information. This is just not my opinion. We had a lengthy discussion
about this among IT and legal people. We also asked them point blank
what they mean. It is very clear they want their cash register to ring
every time you clone a disk for multiple computers. Other software
products that do a similar function also have a similar license. Hence
my interest in physical disk duplication.

The Ghost license is actually pretty clear on this point:

"You may not use the Software commercially or non-commercially for the
purpose of creating multiple computers or hard drives not connected to
the original computer, with similar or identical configurations to that
of the original computer or hard drive."

I do not see similar wording in the Drive Image license.

 

[Ted Lind]

You can put forth your interpretation of their license terms but it is
certain that they will prevail if the software police come and visit you.
The license is very specific. They even tell you that the drive you are
cloning contains information which will allow it to be traced back to the
particular Ghost license that created it. One of the versions includes a
utility that allows you to look at that information. This is just not my
opinion. We had a lengthy discussion about this among IT and legal people.
We also asked them point blank what they mean. It is very clear they want
their cash register to ring every time you clone a disk for multiple
computers. Other software products that do a similar function also have a
similar license. Hence my interest in physical disk duplication.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

I work for a non-profit that provides computer literacy training and
computers for low income people in our county. We refurbish about 600
computers per year for our clients. We want to change our method for loading
the hard disks on these systems. In searching the web, we have found there
are several brands and models of hard disk duplicating equipment.

We need to load the Windows operating system and the applications we use
onto a variety of hard disks in the computers that are donated to us. We
always have to open the system so pulling the hard disk to load it is not a
problem.

My problem is getting some advice from any one who does this kind of
operation. I am looking for a recommendation of equipment to use. I know
little about the equipment and cannot find much information on the Internet
other than each manufacturer's claims.

Units seem to range from low cost ~$900 for portable field units to a couple
of thousand for a desk top unit that will duplicate two drives. It is not
very clear to me which units are superior and cost effective. I am hoping
someone has experience doing this and could at least provide some pointers
on what to look for. Thanks.

The fastest way to clone a drive is a physical sector to sector copy to the number
of sectors that actually have data. Problem is that target must be the same size
or bigger than source. Target will also be the same size as source afterwards as
far as usable space is concerned. There are free programs available to do this.
However, any excess unused space will have to be reclaimed using partitioning
software that is capable of such or using MBR editing tools such as PTEDIT.

An alternative might be to have several backup images for different size drives
available and use a restore program to restore these to the similar size drives.
That too will copy content in a sequential manner and therefor relatively fast way.

 

[Rod Speed]

You can put forth your interpretation of their license terms but it is
certain that they will prevail if the software police come and visit you.

Nope, the law prevails.

The license is very specific.

Soorree, they can try pulling any stunt they like on that. Cuts no mustard.

They even tell you that the drive you are cloning contains
information which will allow it to be traced back to the
particular Ghost license that created it. One of the versions
includes a utility that allows you to look at that information.

Soorree, the law only specifys what can be done with
copyrighted software, Symantec gets no say what so ever
on how its used as long as it isnt run on more than one PC etc.

Just like MS can claim anything it likes on the question
of what software can be separated from what hardware.
What matters is the law on that, not what MS claims.

This is just not my opinion. We had a lengthy
discussion about this among IT and legal people.

Who clearly dont have a clue about the law.

We also asked them point blank what they mean.
It is very clear they want their cash register to ring
every time you clone a disk for multiple computers.

Doesnt matter a damn what they want, what matters is the law.

Other software products that do a similar
function also have a similar license.

It isnt even legally clear that there is any 'license' at all with
a retail product like SystemWorks Pro, whatever they claim.

Hence my interest in physical disk duplication.

More fool you.

 

[Ted Lind]

Rod, you mind is obviously made up and you are convinced you are correct.
There really is now point in continuing the conversation.

 

[Sambo]

The Ghost license is actually pretty clear on this point:

"You may not use the Software commercially or non-commercially
for the purpose of creating multiple computers or hard drives not
connected to the original computer, with similar or identical
configurations to that of the original computer or hard drive."

Pity about the law on that.

Symantec doesnt get to impose anything thats
outside what the copyright law mandates.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod, you mind is obviously made up

And I understand the law, even if you dont.

and you are convinced you are correct.

There really is now point in continuing the conversation.

Yep, you're always welcome to let Symantec bluff you.

You could use Drive Image which doesnt have the same
stupid stuff in any purported 'license agreement' and then
you wouldnt need a hardware drive duplicator.

 

[chrisv]

Rod, you mind is obviously made up and you are convinced you are correct.
There really is now point in continuing the conversation.

A pox on you top posters who can't be bothered to trim their posts.

 

[Sylvan Butler]

The Ghost license is actually pretty clear on this point:

I do not see similar wording in the Drive Image license.

Or you could avoid the entire issue by using 'partimage' (a linux
tool). You can get it all on a bootable 20MB CD image from:
http://www.tux.org/pub/people/kent-robotti/looplinux/rip/
(latest was RIP-6.1 last I checked)

Works great for my needs. Not as slick as 'ghost' but much cheaper
and the license for use is quite clear.

sdb

--
| Sylvan Butler | Not speaking for Hewlett-Packard | sbutler-boi.hp.com |
| Watch out for my e-mail address. Thank UCE. >>>> change ^ to @ <<<< |
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral
busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his
cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our
own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval
of their consciences. -- C. S. Lewis

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

A pox on you top posters who can't be bothered to trim their posts.

Being selective are we now Chrissy? It was only 10k.
What about that 18k post of my bosom friend Joep that basically said *to bugger off* ?

 

[chrisv]

Being selective are we now Chrissy? It was only 10k.
What about that 18k post of my bosom friend Joep that basically said *to bugger off* ?

Well then, he's included in my "pox" statement, isn't he?

 

[Mike McWhinney]

Or you could avoid the entire issue by using 'partimage' (a linux
tool). You can get it all on a bootable 20MB CD image from:
http://www.tux.org/pub/people/kent-robotti/looplinux/rip/
(latest was RIP-6.1 last I checked)

Works great for my needs. Not as slick as 'ghost' but much cheaper
and the license for use is quite clear.

sdb

Another utility (freeware) you could use is Ranish Partition Manager.
I think the latest version is 2.40 or 2.41. There is an option to copy
disks. I believe it will copy a hard drive (or partition) to another
hard drive as long as it is the same size or larger.

Mike McWhinney

 

[Barry OGrady]

You need a replicator. AFAIK such things are not yet practical.


-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640

 

[Barry OGrady]

The fastest way to clone a drive is a physical sector to sector copy to the number
of sectors that actually have data. Problem is that target must be the same size
or bigger than source. Target will also be the same size as source afterwards as
far as usable space is concerned. There are free programs available to do this.
However, any excess unused space will have to be reclaimed using partitioning
software that is capable of such or using MBR editing tools such as PTEDIT.

An alternative might be to have several backup images for different size drives
available and use a restore program to restore these to the similar size drives.
That too will copy content in a sequential manner and therefor relatively fast way.

I have a 6x86 computer that had a 405 mb hard drive. I wanted to substitute a
10 gig without reinstalling, so I used windows explorer to copy all the files, put
the 10 gig as primary master, and it booted normally.



-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640