PCI Express

Mike B · Dec 30, 2003

Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months. For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now? Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard? From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

Skid · Dec 30, 2003

Mike B said:
Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months. For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now? Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard? From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

It's an age-old question in the PC world. There is always something much
faster around the corner.

If you need a new PC now, buy one now and it will serve you well while you
wait for all the bugs to be stomped out of the new technology and the prices
to fall.

If you can wait, the dollars you save now will buy more speed later.

But if you're asking for anyone to predict the schedule, prices and
performance of PCI Express cards, your crystal ball is as good as ours. No
cards have been announced, and all both ATI and Nvidia will say is they will
release them when they're ready and they'll be really fast.What else would
they say?)

The leap from PCI video to AGP was not all that dramatic at first, it took a
while for the graphics processors to catch up, and by then onboard memory
was so big and fast it made precious little difference. PCI Express sounds
good on paper, but anybody who follows this stuff knows to take it with a
grain of salt until it's out of the lab and into a PC near you.

I'm lucky to have a PC that is close enough to top-end now to be able to
hold off until the technology matures -- probably at least a year from now.

Your mileage may vary.

Inglo · Dec 30, 2003

From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

If that's a concern while building a computer, then you'll never get it
built.

NightSky 421 · Dec 30, 2003

Mike B said:
Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months. For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now? Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard? From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

I think your concerns are worth asking about because we are moving to a
whole new bus. It's not like we're talking about going from AGP 4x to AGP
8x, but instead it's AGP to PCI Express. As far as what you should do goes,
it depends on how badly you need or want to upgrade your existing computer.
I doubt PCI Express will show up for another nine months, and when it does,
AGP will still be viable. As Skid mentioned, the jump from PCI to AGP was
not all that much at first, and I recall that PCI video cards were still
perfectly good for at least a couple of years after AGP was released. I
would not make the assumption that AGP is obsolete the minute PCI Express
comes out. Besides that, game developers (or anyone else for that matter)
would be shooting themselves in the foot big time if they insisted on a PCI
Express video card for the first year or so.

So basically, if you are hot and heavy to upgrade right now <grin>, don't
feel bad about doing it. If you're into games, whatever you buy now will
probably be good for at least two years, which is the normal cycle for a
gaming rig anyway. Who knows, maybe by the end of 2005 or in the early part
of 2006, perhaps a faster PCI Express revision 2 will have been released,
and hard drive technology will have matured some more too. Already, Serial
ATA 2 is going to be released in 2004 (whether or not it means a whole lot).
BTX will be coming out with the intention of replacing ATX, but ATX is still
here for quite some time to come IMHO. In short, change is the only
constant when it comes to computers. If you delay upgrading because
something new and exciting is coming out "soon", you might never upgrade.
Sorry to say it, but that's the nature of the beast. Good luck with
whatever you decide to do!

J.Clarke · Dec 30, 2003

Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the
new standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing
production of agp cards altogether in a few months.

Would you be kind enough to provide links to the press releases on the
ATI and nvidia sites in which they make these statements?

Magwheelz · Dec 30, 2003

Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months.

Chapter and verse? How long have AGP cards been around and you can
still buy a PCI card? I wouldn't doubt that AGP might go the way of
ISA but as long as these is a demand I doubt that the top card makers
will halt production any time soon. IMO

Gotta go,
Magwheelz

Andrew Rossmann · Dec 30, 2003

Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months. For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now? Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard? From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

I don't know if any comptuers with PCI Express even exist yet. It'll be
a few years before AGP cards are no longer made. They still make standard
PCI cards years after AGP came out.

bob cox · Dec 30, 2003

I don't know if any comptuers with PCI Express even exist yet. It'll be
a few years before AGP cards are no longer made. They still make standard
PCI cards years after AGP came out.

Q4 2004 is the expected rollout time for the earliest pci express crap
to hit the market. Or so the register tells me.

Rockin Ronnie · Dec 31, 2003

Mike B said:
Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months. For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now? Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard? From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

My best advice to anyone is to adopt a plan of action. My plan is to do a
major upgrade every 4-5 years. Your mileage may vary.

I buy a complete new system that is considered "bleeding edge" and do a
couple of minor upgrades in the 4-5 years that I have the computer. So, in
January of 2002, for example, I bought a P4 2gig Northwood (just when the
2.2's were being released) on an Asus P4-TE with 512 megs of RDRAM and a 40
gig HD, complete with a Radeon 7500. The only upgrades I have done in the
past two years is to replace the Radeon with a 9600Pro (August 03) and to
add an 80 gig Seagate drive (Dec 03). I expect that in the next two years or
so, that'll be it, though I will possibly replace my 17" CRT with an LCD
monitor. Mind you, at the 4 year point my machine might be a little slow by
then current standards but I will be able to observe all the changes taking
place and make some wise decisions.

At that point I will dive into a brand new system complete with all the
bells and whistles and again it will be "bleeding edge". So, if it is
PCI-Express, so be it and by then, likely all the bugs will be worked out.

BTW I still have my '97 computer, a PII-233, which I am using on a home
network.

Ron

Mike B · Dec 31, 2003

"Given that Nvidia had a major part in the development of this new
specification, and that graphics companies from ATI to XGI have already
announced support for the upcoming architecture, it looks like AGP's days
are inevitably drawing to a close. To further depreciate the value of your
very expensive AGP cards, PCI-Express X16 and 8x AGP slots cannot coexist on
the same motherboard. That's okay, considering ATI and Nvidia will have
essentially stopped producing high-end AGP graphics cards by the end of
Q2:2004 anyway.. Therefore when PCI-Express x16 motherboards do start
hitting the market you will be pretty much forced to buy a totally new
videocard."

Evidently, it's coming sooner than you think. I read first quarter of the
year. Here is the link where the info was found.
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1087

Darthy · Dec 31, 2003

"Given that Nvidia had a major part in the development of this new
specification, and that graphics companies from ATI to XGI have already
announced support for the upcoming architecture, it looks like AGP's days
are inevitably drawing to a close. To further depreciate the value of your
very expensive AGP cards, PCI-Express X16 and 8x AGP slots cannot coexist on
the same motherboard. That's okay, considering ATI and Nvidia will have
essentially stopped producing high-end AGP graphics cards by the end of
Q2:2004 anyway.. Therefore when PCI-Express x16 motherboards do start
hitting the market you will be pretty much forced to buy a totally new
videocard."

Evidently, it's coming sooner than you think. I read first quarter of the
year. Here is the link where the info was found.
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1087

Naa.... okay... go to Wal Mart or whatever... you will find GF2MX
cards still on the shelf.

1 - Don't worry about.

2 - PCI Express is a GOOD thing, but it'll only be part of the BTX
setup anyway AFAIK... so you're talking TOTAL system upgrade.

3 - AGP and ATXs has been made for years, it took about 2-3 years for
AT standard to DIE. BTX uses ATX PSUs.... it will take a year or 2
for BTX to replace ATX.

4 - AGP slots will be on some BTX boards.

5 - No card on the market has out paced the AGP 4x slot... the next
GEN Nvidia & ATI cards are going to be within the spec of AGP 8x
abilities. They'd piss off lots of people to not make an AGP
varient. but yes, AGP is going to DIE soon. Trust me, they'd rather
sell you a $200~300 card today (AGP) rather than make you wait a year
or so to upgrade YOUR system to use a $200~300 card then. Why?
Cause you may upgrade today (I'm talking next 3-4 months) and upgrade
again when YOU do get a PCI-EXpress system.

6 - I wouldn't trust PCI-EXpress products (Mobo and cards) for at
LEAST 6 months after they are OFFICALLY being sold to end users
(consumers). remember USB 1.0? AGP 1x? ATX PSU 1.0?

7 - Look at how Intel screws its customers with coming out with mixed
technology- without upgradeablity. The first P4s (423?) 1.3~2.0 where
completely locked into a crappy design... even when INTEL made it
known that these were NOT going to up upgradable. Same with the
first PII boards (modified Pentium Pro chipsets). The first P5 CPUs
are the same thing all over again... placed onto P4 boards.

PB · Dec 31, 2003

Mike B said:
Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months. For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now? Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard? From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

Nobody is going to stop making AGP video cards any time soon.

I can believe thay will stop making PCI ones, but not AGP.

There are too many AGP-based motherboards out there, and the market for
upgrades is far larger than the market for new-system video parts.

DD

The king is dead, long live the king!

PB · Dec 31, 2003

Read the article again.

Intel and its partners are * hoping * PCI-Express will become the new
standard.

Additionally, the reviewer, from PCStats, is stating that nVidia and ATI
will not be producing AGP boards beyond Q4:2004, that is not six months, but
a full year from now. Furthermore this is pure speculation on the author's
part, with zero facts given to back it up.

DD

J.Clarke · Dec 31, 2003

"Given that Nvidia had a major part in the development of this new
specification, and that graphics companies from ATI to XGI have
already announced support for the upcoming architecture, it looks like
AGP's days are inevitably drawing to a close. To further depreciate
the value of your very expensive AGP cards, PCI-Express X16 and 8x AGP
slots cannot coexist on the same motherboard. That's okay, considering
ATI and Nvidia will have essentially stopped producing high-end AGP
graphics cards by the end of Q2:2004 anyway.. Therefore when
PCI-Express x16 motherboards do start hitting the market you will be
pretty much forced to buy a totally new videocard."

Evidently, it's coming sooner than you think. I read first quarter of
the year. Here is the link where the info was found.
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1087

I see nothing in that article that states that anybody has committed to
shipping any product of any kind using PCI Express by any given date.
The only date I see is the date on which the standard was approved,
which was a year and a half ago. If I have missed something please show
me where.

Further, that article is not a press release or other official statement
by ATI or by Nvidia that states that they will be discontinuing their
AGP products.

All we have is somebody's opinion.

So, who do you work for that benefits by having this kind of FUD
sprinkled about?

Incidentally, there is nothing that prevents a PCI Express X16 bus to be
attached to one Hypertransport link and a PCI-X/AGP8X bus to a second,
which leaves the third for some other use.

ThermosBoy (TM) · Jan 1, 2004

Would you be kind enough to provide links to the press releases on the
ATI and nvidia sites in which they make these statements?

There are no press releases, but this should give you some idea

ThermosBoy (TM) · Jan 1, 2004

Since they are really, really pushing PCI express towards becoming the new
standard, Nvidia and Ati has stated that they are ceasing production of agp
cards altogether in a few months.

That is simply not going to happen. New standards take time - lots of
it. The market demand for AGP is huge and will continue to be for some
time to come yet.

For someone that wants to build a new pc,
is it even worth it to buy a video card at all right now?
Absolutely.

Or should they
wait until xpress mb are available soon, and build one based on that
standard?

Sure if you want to be a guinea pig

From what i gather, what is out there right now is destined to
become obsolete fairly soon.

There is absolutely nothing to worry about. AGP cannot and will not be
made irrelevant so soon. The market demand for boards and the millions
of AGP mainboards out there manufacturers simply cannot and will not
ignore.

On top of that, version 1.0 of anything is usually pretty terrible
stuff, particularly when it concerns brand new buses. The next
generation ATI and Nvidia cards won't take advantage of PCI Express
fully anyway. They will essentially be 'bridge' products compatible
with both interfaces for the sake of testing the PCI Express waters
before things (like software, hardware, etc) really start to catch up.
In other words, it's unlikely we'll see any benefit for a good while
yet.

Don't bother waiting for untested, immature technology - even when it
promises the earth.

It will be at least 18 months after release before the dust settles on
PCI Express. Even then, AGP will be insanely popular with mainstream
boards, and it's doubtful our friend PCI Express will offer us any
real benefits until the really cool second-generation PCI Express
hardware (and software) comes out, which will only happen after the
first generation products get phased out.

Remember early AGP boards? Early USB boards? etc...
Same deal. Immature technology, no benefit for some time, took a while
for compliant devices to come out, took even longer for the cards to
exploit the speed available, took a while for an OS to take full
advantage, had early problems, etc.

J.Clarke · Jan 1, 2004

There are no press releases, but this should give you some idea
Been in development for some time now and discussed on most tech news
sites. 2004 will be the year we see the first products.

The long list of links below exemplify what we used to call the "Bury
'em in bullshit" approach. If any of those articles contains any
reference to any kind of statement by the manufacturers that IN A FEW
MONTHS nvidia and ATI are CEASING PRODUCTION OF AGP BOARDS ALTOGETHER
would you be kind enough to state which one? And if there is no
reference to such a statement by any of those companies then please be
kind enough to explain why you believe that those articles have
relevance to that question.

Perhaps you are trying to set up a straw man? Instead of addressing the
question posed, are you trying to change the subject to the question of
whether PCI Express exists as a standard and if so whether and when some
kind of PCI Express product will be shipped by somebody somewhere? If
that is what you are attempting to do I will stipulate that someday,
somewhere, somebody will ship some kind of PCI Express product, and
that someday, for some reason, AGP products will no longer be
produced--that reason may be PCI Express, or PCI-X, or the fall of
civilization, or some other reason which nobody can predict at this
time, and that date will be somewhere between now and the end of time.
That said, I still question the existence of statements by nvidia and
ATI that they will cease to produce AGP products "in a few months". If
you have anything relevant to say on that topic I would like to see it.

ThermosBoy (TM) · Jan 1, 2004

If any of those articles contains any
reference to any kind of statement by the manufacturers that IN A FEW
MONTHS nvidia and ATI are CEASING PRODUCTION OF AGP BOARDS ALTOGETHER
would you be kind enough to state which one?

I must have misunderstood your question. No, AGP is not going
anywhere, as I have already mentioned in another post. Chill.

Strontium · Jan 1, 2004

-
J.Clarke stood up at show-n-tell, in
(e-mail address removed), and said:

The long list of links below exemplify what we used to call the "Bury
'em in bullshit" approach. If any of those articles contains any
reference to any kind of statement by the manufacturers that IN A FEW
MONTHS nvidia and ATI are CEASING PRODUCTION OF AGP BOARDS ALTOGETHER
would you be kind enough to state which one? And if there is no
reference to such a statement by any of those companies then please be
kind enough to explain why you believe that those articles have
relevance to that question.

The fact that the links are to the 'inquirer', I think, speaks volumes. It
think it would be more productive to discredit that 'rag', than the poster.
The 'inquirer' is nothing but a bunch of dorks, sitting around, speculating
and perpetrating rumors.

Perhaps you are trying to set up a straw man? Instead of addressing
the question posed, are you trying to change the subject to the
question of whether PCI Express exists as a standard and if so
whether and when some kind of PCI Express product will be shipped by
somebody somewhere? If that is what you are attempting to do I will
stipulate that someday, somewhere, somebody will ship some kind of
PCI Express product, and that someday, for some reason, AGP products
will no longer be produced--that reason may be PCI Express, or PCI-X,
or the fall of civilization, or some other reason which nobody can
predict at this time, and that date will be somewhere between now and
the end of time. That said, I still question the existence of
statements by nvidia and ATI that they will cease to produce AGP
products "in a few months". If you have anything relevant to say on
that topic I would like to see it.

<snip>

Wblane · Jan 1, 2004

I think they still make PCI 3d-accelerated video cards don't they? I saw them
in a computer store about 6 months ago. They were some sort of GeForce cards
but I can't be certain now.

I didn't have any major problems w/my old PCI 3dFX Voodoo 3/2000. The card
worked great for a lot of games back then: Half Life, Quake II, System Shock
II,
Xwing Alliance, the Command&Conquer series. My GeForce 2/GTS almost doubled my
framerates over the old Voodoo 3/2000. Too bad 3dFX is gone, they were a great
company. Even funnier is the fact that I NEVER had any of the unbeleivable
driver problems I've had w/my Radeon 9500 Pro, but games were simpler back
then.

Nobody is going to stop making AGP video cards any time soon.

I can believe thay will stop making PCI ones, but not AGP.

There are too many AGP-based motherboards out there, and the market for
upgrades is far larger than the market for new-system video parts.

DD

The king is dead, long live the king!

-Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)

PCI Express

Mike B

Skid

Inglo

NightSky 421

J.Clarke

Magwheelz

Andrew Rossmann

bob cox

Rockin Ronnie

Mike B

Darthy

PB

PB

J.Clarke

ThermosBoy (TM)

ThermosBoy (TM)

J.Clarke

ThermosBoy (TM)

Strontium

Wblane