PCI Express

[Kevin C.]

Since this is Intel's new chipset, would I be correct in assuming that a
pcie mainboard would only support P4s (no AMD)? At least, before Via gets a
clone out?

Also, have there been any tests to confirm real-world performance gains?
Something comparing AGP 8x to PCIE 16x, with comparable GPUs? If so, what is
the margin of difference like?

Basically, I am in the market for a new mainboard/cpu/video and while PCIE
is obviously the forward-thinking choice, it seems like it is just barely
emerging and I don't know how this will affect cost-effectiveness. (My
budget is a concern.)

 

[Rob Stow]

Since this is Intel's new chipset, would I be correct in assuming that a
pcie mainboard would only support P4s (no AMD)? At least, before Via gets a
clone out?

Also, have there been any tests to confirm real-world performance gains?
Something comparing AGP 8x to PCIE 16x, with comparable GPUs? If so, what is
the margin of difference like?

There have been a few sites comparing PCI-E vs AGP for
the top ATI and nVidia cards. Google should find such
links for you quickly. The margins I remember seeing
make it difficult to stop yourself from asking what the
hell the point of PCI-E graphics is and to instead remember
that PCI-E is not so much about giving us a step up from AGP
and is instead about things like replacing PCI with something
faster and cheaper and simplifying motherboard design
by eliminating the need for AGP.

In other words, PCI-E graphics at this stage is all about
marketing to idiots who have to have the latest and
greatest even if the bang/buck ratio is poor.

Basically, I am in the market for a new mainboard/cpu/video and while PCIE
is obviously the forward-thinking choice, it seems like it is just barely
emerging and I don't know how this will affect cost-effectiveness. (My
budget is a concern.)

VIA has the K8T890 chipset for AMD64 and the PT890 for P4,
both offering PCI-E. Haven't heard of any mobos available
with either of those yet.

nVidia has something under development too, but I
can't remember the status of it. About all I remember
reading is that the nForce3 150 and 250 series chipsets
do not support PCI-E, but that the next generation will.

For those on a tight budget - including me and apparently
you too - keep in mind that so far no one is making PCI-E
video cards for the low end of the market. PCI-E video
cards are so far planned only for the pricey top-shelf stuff.

 

[The little lost angel]

Also, have there been any tests to confirm real-world performance gains?
Something comparing AGP 8x to PCIE 16x, with comparable GPUs? If so, what is
the margin of difference like?

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2091&p=12

Basically as expected, no real difference since slot bandwidth has not
been the graphics bottleneck for a long while. There were no
significant improvements between 4x and 8x AGP so PCI-E doesn't do
much either.

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Tony Hill]

Since this is Intel's new chipset, would I be correct in assuming that a
pcie mainboard would only support P4s (no AMD)? At least, before Via gets a
clone out?

For the moment, yes. VIA, nVidia and SiS all have PCI Express
chipsets for the Athlon64 planned for this year though.

Also, have there been any tests to confirm real-world performance gains?
Something comparing AGP 8x to PCIE 16x, with comparable GPUs? If so, what is
the margin of difference like?

0% pretty much across the board. AGP 8x had far more bandwidth than
was actually used, so doubling again did absolutely nothing. Maybe 4
or 5 years down the line it will make a difference, but for right now
it's a none-issue.

Basically, I am in the market for a new mainboard/cpu/video and while PCIE
is obviously the forward-thinking choice, it seems like it is just barely
emerging and I don't know how this will affect cost-effectiveness. (My
budget is a concern.)

At the moment it will pump up the price for no improvement in
performance. In the long run though it *should* be cheaper. The real
idea behind PCI-Express was to get more bandwidth out of fewer pins,
so long-term that should translate to lower costs, even if it doesn't
necessarily help performance. However in the short-term the "first on
the block" factor will keep prices high.

 

[Me]

There have been a few sites comparing PCI-E vs AGP for
the top ATI and nVidia cards. Google should find such
links for you quickly. The margins I remember seeing
make it difficult to stop yourself from asking what the
hell the point of PCI-E graphics is and to instead remember
that PCI-E is not so much about giving us a step up from AGP
and is instead about things like replacing PCI with something
faster and cheaper and simplifying motherboard design
by eliminating the need for AGP.

What I would like to have, rather than more 3D speed
(I don't need 3D at all) is more screen real estate. The
cheapest way to get that seems to be with
multiple monitors. I have a double-head Matrox
card right now but triple head (fanless too) would be nicer.

AJ

 

[Rob Stow]

What I would like to have, rather than more 3D speed
(I don't need 3D at all) is more screen real estate. The
cheapest way to get that seems to be with
multiple monitors. I have a double-head Matrox
card right now but triple head (fanless too) would be nicer.

Since you don't need 3D, a quad-head Matrox G200 or
G450 would do you nicely. However, they cost an
arm and a leg.

A much cheaper solution is to use a pair of dual-head
G450's or a G450 and a G550 - either both PCI or one
PCI and one AGP. I believe Matrox also recently
started selling a PCI version of one of their
P-series cards.

 

[Me]

Since you don't need 3D, a quad-head Matrox G200 or
G450 would do you nicely. However, they cost an
arm and a leg.

A much cheaper solution is to use a pair of dual-head
G450's or a G450 and a G550 - either both PCI or one
PCI and one AGP. I believe Matrox also recently
started selling a PCI version of one of their
P-series cards.

4 monitors would be too much though. 3 would form a nice
symmetrical viewing pattern: front, left, right. The G450 PCI
is what I have now (kinda slow on my 400 MHz AMD machine
but nice text). I was going to get the P650 (but I don't think that
will do 1600x1200x3 and that's what I want). Now if I could use
the motherboard's built-in graphics AND the 2 G450 ports, I'd
be all set (soon I'll have a new Intel motherboard)!

I wonder if having 3 CRTs pointing at me poses some kind of
health risk (?). I can't afford LCD (maybe I should wait til I can).

AJ

 

[Rob Stow]

4 monitors would be too much though. 3 would form a nice
symmetrical viewing pattern: front, left, right.

A pair of dual-head video cards in no way requires you to
attach a monitor to all four "heads". 4 would be the
upper limit - nothing stopping you from using 3, 2, or
even just 1 monitor.

The G450 PCI
is what I have now (kinda slow on my 400 MHz AMD machine
but nice text). I was going to get the P650 (but I don't think that
will do 1600x1200x3 and that's what I want). Now if I could use
the motherboard's built-in graphics AND the 2 G450 ports, I'd
be all set (soon I'll have a new Intel motherboard)!

Give it a try and see if it works. The Intel/Matrox combo
might not play together nicely or they might play nicely
with some OSes and not others. Nothing stopping you from
later disabling the Intel video and adding another Matrox
card if that is what it takes to get you your 3 monitor
setup.

I wonder if having 3 CRTs pointing at me poses some kind of
health risk (?).

I know someone who spent a decade in front of a 4 x 21"
setup until the prices for large LCDs came down enough
for his company to replace the CRTs. He had problems
with kinks in his neck when he had to spend a lot of
time looking at the two upper monitors (they were arranged
in a 2 x 2 pattern), but that was about the extent of his
health problems.

 

[daytripper]

4 monitors would be too much though. 3 would form a nice
symmetrical viewing pattern: front, left, right. The G450 PCI
is what I have now (kinda slow on my 400 MHz AMD machine
but nice text). I was going to get the P650 (but I don't think that
will do 1600x1200x3 and that's what I want). Now if I could use
the motherboard's built-in graphics AND the 2 G450 ports, I'd
be all set (soon I'll have a new Intel motherboard)!

I wonder if having 3 CRTs pointing at me poses some kind of
health risk (?). I can't afford LCD (maybe I should wait til I can).

I've been running triple-headed systems for years, my current dual P4 3ghz
Xeon box sports a Parhelia 512 with three 21" tubes.

The triple 21s are wonderful for 53 year old eyes...

/daytripper (...and no obvious chromosome damage - yet ;-)

 

[AJ]

A pair of dual-head video cards in no way requires you to
attach a monitor to all four "heads". 4 would be the
upper limit - nothing stopping you from using 3, 2, or
even just 1 monitor.

I realize that.

Give it a try and see if it works.

My current board in the BIOS setup has an option to choose
either a PCI video card or the onboard graphics.

The Intel/Matrox combo
might not play together nicely or they might play nicely
with some OSes and not others.

Has anyone tried this and gotten it to work? (On-board vid plus
PCI or AGP vid).

Nothing stopping you from
later disabling the Intel video and adding another Matrox
card if that is what it takes to get you your 3 monitor
setup.

That's probably what I'll have to do. But maybe I'll get the
P650 (still passively cooled) and use that until I accumulate a 3rd
monitor and then add my G450 to the setup (I just found out from
a monitor repair guy that my 2nd monitor "isn't worth fixing" so I've
just one now).

I know someone who spent a decade in front of a 4 x 21"
setup until the prices for large LCDs came down enough
for his company to replace the CRTs. He had problems
with kinks in his neck when he had to spend a lot of
time looking at the two upper monitors (they were arranged
in a 2 x 2 pattern), but that was about the extent of his
health problems.

I think only scientific study/facts are valid for this concern (that is,
I know someone who has smoked for 40 years, 3 packs a day
and is still "fine". But I tend to heed the surgeon general's
warning anyway). I have a feeling the newer TCO certified
monitors cause little problems though.

AJ

 

[AJ]

I've been running triple-headed systems for years, my current dual P4 3ghz
Xeon box sports a Parhelia 512 with three 21" tubes.

Wow! Can you say "high end"?! I have one 19", one 17" (broken , I drove
it at 5 KHz more than its rating for a long time until I smoked it). I'll probably
get another 19" to keep costs down (about half the price of 21").

AJ

 

[Rob Stow]

I realize that.




My current board in the BIOS setup has an option to choose
either a PCI video card or the onboard graphics.

What, no AGP slot ? Cheap board.

In any case, that BIOS option is most probably just
for selecting the primary display adapter. If you
select PCI, it will probably disable the integrated
AGP video, but if you select the integrated AGP it
should not affect your ability to also use a PCI card.

Has anyone tried this and gotten it to work? (On-board vid plus
PCI or AGP vid).

Yup. The system I am currently using has integrated
nVidia GeForce AGP video. Just for you I also added
a Matrox G400 PCI dualhead. Works fine with one monitor
on the integrated AGP and one on the G400. Can't test
a 3 monitor setup because I only have 2 monitors here
at home. OS = W2K Pro. Can only make it work with
separate desktops for each monitor. (Single desktop
across both monitors works if I put both on
the G400 and disable the integrated AGP.)

Note that integrated AGP video plus a card in an AGP
slot will never work. Simply a limitation of the AGP
standard.

That's probably what I'll have to do. But maybe I'll get the
P650 (still passively cooled) and use that until I accumulate a 3rd
monitor and then add my G450 to the setup (I just found out from
a monitor repair guy that my 2nd monitor "isn't worth fixing" so I've
just one now).




I think only scientific study/facts are valid for this concern (that is,
I know someone who has smoked for 40 years, 3 packs a day
and is still "fine". But I tend to heed the surgeon general's
warning anyway). I have a feeling the newer TCO certified
monitors cause little problems though.

I intended my health comment to be tongue-in-cheek.
Some things just don't work in text because you can't see
the other guy going nudge-nudge, wink-wink.

 

[Tony Hill]

Give it a try and see if it works. The Intel/Matrox combo
might not play together nicely or they might play nicely
with some OSes and not others. Nothing stopping you from
later disabling the Intel video and adding another Matrox
card if that is what it takes to get you your 3 monitor
setup.

Intel's integrated graphics will not work with an AGP card, but should
play ok with a PCI one. The trick would be more with the multi-head
software side of things, particularly under Win2K (earlier versions of
Windows probably won't work at all). Under WinXP they should work ok
though, and Linux/X-Windows shouldn't be any problem at all.

 

[Tony Hill]

I've been running triple-headed systems for years, my current dual P4 3ghz
Xeon box sports a Parhelia 512 with three 21" tubes.

Show off! :>

 

[AJ]

Intel's integrated graphics will not work with an AGP card, but should
play ok with a PCI one. The trick would be more with the multi-head
software side of things, particularly under Win2K (earlier versions of
Windows probably won't work at all). Under WinXP they should work ok
though, and Linux/X-Windows shouldn't be any problem at all.

I have a feeling that the Matrox P650 isn't offered in PCI, with AGP going
away and what you said above, I'd hate to buy into the technology.

AJ

 

[AJ]

What, no AGP slot ? Cheap board.

OLD board. (OK, budget board when it was new too).

In any case, that BIOS option is most probably just
for selecting the primary display adapter. If you
select PCI, it will probably disable the integrated
AGP video, but if you select the integrated AGP it
should not affect your ability to also use a PCI card.

Sounds reasonable. The new MB I'm probably gonna get
is the 865GBFLK. I may have all the video hardware I
need then if I got a 3rd monitor and the onboard graphics
can be used.

Yup. The system I am currently using has integrated
nVidia GeForce AGP video. Just for you I also added
a Matrox G400 PCI dualhead. Works fine with one monitor
on the integrated AGP and one on the G400. Can't test
a 3 monitor setup because I only have 2 monitors here
at home. OS = W2K Pro. Can only make it work with
separate desktops for each monitor. (Single desktop
across both monitors works if I put both on
the G400 and disable the integrated AGP.)

Cool. I just have to save up for a monitor and not another
video card then.

Note that integrated AGP video plus a card in an AGP
slot will never work. Simply a limitation of the AGP
standard.

And a dead standard apparently with the introduction of
PCIe. I'm glad I don't have any of those "old relics".

I intended my health comment to be tongue-in-cheek.

Oh, OK.

Some things just don't work in text because you can't see
the other guy going nudge-nudge, wink-wink.

Well that's what emoticons are for.

AJ

 

[Rob Stow]

I have a feeling that the Matrox P650 isn't offered in PCI, with AGP going
away and what you said above, I'd hate to buy into the technology.

There are both PCI and AGP versions for the Parhelia,
but AFAIK only AGP for the P650 and P750.

And AGP will be around for a while yet. And even if
you do become one of the early adopters of PCI-E,
motherboards with two 16 lane PCI-E slots will cost
a pretty penny and so far only the high-end video cards
are slated for release in PCI-E versions. For at least
the next year, the only reasonably priced solution for
someone with your needs is going to be one of the
following:
integrated AGP + PCI
AGP card + PCI
PCI + PCI

Probably the cheapest PCI-E solution for you will be
one of the transitional motherboards that will have
a single PCI-E 16e slot and at one or both of the
following:
AGP slot
Legacy PCI slots

However, so far my it appears that the transitional
motherboards in the works that have both PCI-E 16e and
AGP slots will let you use only one of those two slots.

 

[daytripper]

Show off! :>

lol! well, he asked ;-)

context: the processors, coolers, memory, power supply, scsi host adapters and
drives (I won't torture you with details other than "15Krpm" ;-) came from my
company's engineering lab, all I had to buy was the motherboard (Super Micro
X5DAE) and the Parhelia graphics card, which together cost less than a
much-less-capable-but-already-built single processor Dell workstation.

even the bean-counters were happy, and my aging eyes appreciate it a lot...

/daytripper (it sucks to be old, but so far I haven't been able to stop it ;-)

 

[AJ]

There are both PCI and AGP versions for the Parhelia,
but AFAIK only AGP for the P650 and P750.

And AGP will be around for a while yet.

There's no AGP on the new Intel socket T boards.

And even if
you do become one of the early adopters of PCI-E,
motherboards with two 16 lane PCI-E slots will cost
a pretty penny and so far only the high-end video cards
are slated for release in PCI-E versions.

I was thinking PCI, not PCIe for my needs.

For at least
the next year, the only reasonably priced solution for
someone with your needs is going to be one of the
following:
integrated AGP + PCI
AGP card + PCI
PCI + PCI
Yep!

Probably the cheapest PCI-E solution for you will be
one of the transitional motherboards that will have
a single PCI-E 16e slot and at one or both of the
following:
AGP slot
Legacy PCI slots

I'm not buying a PCIe board because I don't want Prescott
technology or the higher prices of the boards.

However, so far my it appears that the transitional
motherboards in the works that have both PCI-E 16e and
AGP slots will let you use only one of those two slots.

Not Intel, as far I can tell. PCIe only.

AJ

 

[Rob Stow]

There's no AGP on the new Intel socket T boards.

And good luck on getting your hands on one of those
boards or a processor for one of those boards.

I know someone who is desperate for a Socket T
mobo\cpu combo and the vendors are telling him he'll
be lucky to get one before 2005. All production -
what little there is so far - is apparently going
only to the big computer manufacturers for the next
few months.