PC refuses to boot

[Grumble]

Hello all,

I've been pulling my hair for 3 hours over this problem, so I thought
I'd ask in here, and see if people have had a similar problem.

I have an oldish (bought 08/2001) Socket A motherboard (ASUS A7V133-C).
The chipset fan was starting to whine after collecting dust for 6 months
(since I last cleaned it up). As I've done several times, I unscrewed
the chipset fan, partly lifted the sticker in the middle, put a drop of
vaseline oil on the fan's axis, and used a vacuum cleaner to make the
fan spin for a while. I did the same to the CPU fan.

Is that stupid? Is there a better way to treat fans when they get dirty
and start whining?

Now, when I try to boot the system, all the fans start to spin for a few
seconds (it varies from 1 to 4), then everything shuts down (I hear
strange sounds in the PSU), and the POWER LED on the front panel blinks
steadily (about 1 second on, then 1 second off) as if the PC was in some
sort of deep sleep mode.

Any idea what this means?

After several hours testing different combinations, I noticed that I
could boot if I unplugged my hard disk drive (uh oh!). My HDD is an IBM
Deskstar 34GXP DPTA-372050.

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/desk/ds34gxp.htm

I don't understand how cleaning the fans could have damaged the HDD.

NOTE: A few weeks ago, I thought the drive was experiencing the "click
of death" (I thought it was a 75GXP, don't know if 34GXP were affected).
I downloaded the S.M.A.R.T. diagnostic tool from Hitachi, and ran it for
several hours. It found no problem with the drive.

I'm hoping you guys have some suggestions for me

 

[Grumble]

I've been pulling my hair for 3 hours over this problem, so I thought
I'd ask in here, and see if people have had a similar problem.

I have an oldish (bought 08/2001) Socket A motherboard (ASUS A7V133-C).
The chipset fan was starting to whine after collecting dust for 6 months
(since I last cleaned it up). As I've done several times, I unscrewed
the chipset fan, partly lifted the sticker in the middle, put a drop of
vaseline oil on the fan's axis, and used a vacuum cleaner to make the
fan spin for a while. I did the same to the CPU fan.

Is that stupid? Is there a better way to treat fans when they get dirty
and start whining?

Now, when I try to boot the system, all the fans start to spin for a few
seconds (it varies from 1 to 4), then everything shuts down (I hear
strange sounds in the PSU), and the POWER LED on the front panel blinks
steadily (about 1 second on, then 1 second off) as if the PC was in some
sort of deep sleep mode.

Any idea what this means?

After several hours testing different combinations, I noticed that I
could boot if I unplugged my hard disk drive (uh oh!). My HDD is an IBM
Deskstar 34GXP DPTA-372050.

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/desk/ds34gxp.htm

I don't understand how cleaning the fans could have damaged the HDD.

NOTE: A few weeks ago, I thought the drive was experiencing the "click
of death" (I thought it was a 75GXP, don't know if 34GXP were affected).
I downloaded the S.M.A.R.T. diagnostic tool from Hitachi, and ran it for
several hours. It found no problem with the drive.

Another experiment: the PC boots if I plug the HDD's power connector,
but leave the data connector unplugged. Would this rule out a problem
with the HDD? Or can the disk send weird signals on the data path which
cause the PC to refuse to boot?

Could the power supply be giving out? Does HDD initialization draw a lot
of current? (I might not make any sense, I'm just writing whatever comes
through my mind.)

 

[Keith R. Williams]

Hello all,

I've been pulling my hair for 3 hours over this problem, so I thought
I'd ask in here, and see if people have had a similar problem.

I have an oldish (bought 08/2001) Socket A motherboard (ASUS A7V133-C).
The chipset fan was starting to whine after collecting dust for 6 months
(since I last cleaned it up). As I've done several times, I unscrewed
the chipset fan, partly lifted the sticker in the middle, put a drop of
vaseline oil on the fan's axis, and used a vacuum cleaner to make the
fan spin for a while. I did the same to the CPU fan.

Vaseline oil? Is that anything like Vasoline Petrolium Jelly? If so,
it's about the *worst* possible thing to use as a lubricant. It's
closer to a glue. Personally, I wouldn't use any lubricant on such
fans. Oil tends to attract dust.

Is that stupid? Is there a better way to treat fans when they get dirty
and start whining?

Sure, replace them. ;-) "It's dead, Jim."

Now, when I try to boot the system, all the fans start to spin for a few
seconds (it varies from 1 to 4), then everything shuts down (I hear
strange sounds in the PSU), and the POWER LED on the front panel blinks
steadily (about 1 second on, then 1 second off) as if the PC was in some
sort of deep sleep mode.

Any idea what this means?

It seems that "Power Good" isn't. That's not the fans. Either the PSU
or the motherboard is likely bad. One other thing it *could* be...
Check the voltage switch on the back of the case. Moons ago I had
problems with one that was set to 220V.

After several hours testing different combinations, I noticed that I
could boot if I unplugged my hard disk drive (uh oh!). My HDD is an IBM
Deskstar 34GXP DPTA-372050.

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/desk/ds34gxp.htm

I don't understand how cleaning the fans could have damaged the HDD.

Coincidence. Perhaps the drive is shorted to something? ...moved in
the case, or screws too long? It wouldn't be plugged in backwards?
(I've done dumber things) ;-)

NOTE: A few weeks ago, I thought the drive was experiencing the "click
of death" (I thought it was a 75GXP, don't know if 34GXP were affected).
I downloaded the S.M.A.R.T. diagnostic tool from Hitachi, and ran it for
several hours. It found no problem with the drive.

I wouldn't think COD would cause it to short out. If the PSU won't
come/stay up, you're drawing a ton of current! ...watch the smoke. :-(

I'm hoping you guys have some suggestions for me

Punt?

 

[Grumble]

Another experiment: the PC boots if I plug the HDD's power connector,
but leave the data connector unplugged. Would this rule out a problem
with the HDD? Or can the disk send weird signals on the data path which
cause the PC to refuse to boot?

Could the power supply be giving out? Does HDD initialization draw a lot
of current? (I might not make any sense, I'm just writing whatever comes
through my mind.)

I tried something crazy: I booted with the HDD's power connector plugged
in, and the HDD's data connector unplugged. I stopped the boot process
by going into the BIOS. Then, with the computer on, I plugged the HDD's
data connector. I checked that the BIOS could detect the HDD and picked
"exit discarding changes".

The PC booted into Windows.

I'm hoping this is a problem with the PSU, not with the HDD (I'd say
that last experiment would point to a failing PSU, no?)

What are the dangers of plugging the data connector with the power
turned on?

 

[CJT]

Grumble wrote:

I'm hoping this is a problem with the PSU, not with the HDD (I'd say
that last experiment would point to a failing PSU, no?)

That seems likely to me.

What are the dangers of plugging the data connector with the power
turned on?

Don't do that. Most drives aren't designed for it (unless you've got
an IDE drive spec'd for hot-plugging or a SCSI drive, which often are)
and you can blow out the electronics on the drive by doing it.

 

[George Macdonald]

Hello all,

I've been pulling my hair for 3 hours over this problem, so I thought
I'd ask in here, and see if people have had a similar problem.

I have an oldish (bought 08/2001) Socket A motherboard (ASUS A7V133-C).
The chipset fan was starting to whine after collecting dust for 6 months
(since I last cleaned it up). As I've done several times, I unscrewed
the chipset fan, partly lifted the sticker in the middle, put a drop of
vaseline oil on the fan's axis, and used a vacuum cleaner to make the
fan spin for a while. I did the same to the CPU fan.

Is that stupid? Is there a better way to treat fans when they get dirty
and start whining?

I've done clean & lube of fans, usually with the intention of using it as a
temporary measure but have rarely gotten around to the intended
replacement. Vaseline oil is not a good lubricant - I'd recommend going
to a model shop and getting one of their special greases, like La
Belle's(sp?) which are used with model trains etc.

Now, when I try to boot the system, all the fans start to spin for a few
seconds (it varies from 1 to 4), then everything shuts down (I hear
strange sounds in the PSU), and the POWER LED on the front panel blinks
steadily (about 1 second on, then 1 second off) as if the PC was in some
sort of deep sleep mode.

Any idea what this means?

What happens if you press reset?

After several hours testing different combinations, I noticed that I
could boot if I unplugged my hard disk drive (uh oh!). My HDD is an IBM
Deskstar 34GXP DPTA-372050.

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/desk/ds34gxp.htm

I don't understand how cleaning the fans could have damaged the HDD.

NOTE: A few weeks ago, I thought the drive was experiencing the "click
of death" (I thought it was a 75GXP, don't know if 34GXP were affected).
I downloaded the S.M.A.R.T. diagnostic tool from Hitachi, and ran it for
several hours. It found no problem with the drive.

S.M.A.R.T. is useless IME. I had an IBM drive (I think 34GXP) which was in
obvious distress: heads clicking and clattering on startup but it would
settle down and the system would work fine for hours. Running the SMART
diags showed "healthy drive".

I'm hoping you guys have some suggestions for me

Try a fresh new IDE cable; check the HDD power connector for expansion of
the split tube pins; the HDD power is not coming from a Y-adapter is it?...
some of those have real junky metal in the pins but try a different power
connector anyway.

Whatever you end up with, I'd get your files off that HDD and onto a new
one... tout de bloody suite.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Tony Hill]

Hello all,

I've been pulling my hair for 3 hours over this problem, so I thought
I'd ask in here, and see if people have had a similar problem.

I have an oldish (bought 08/2001) Socket A motherboard (ASUS A7V133-C).
The chipset fan was starting to whine after collecting dust for 6 months
(since I last cleaned it up). As I've done several times, I unscrewed
the chipset fan, partly lifted the sticker in the middle, put a drop of
vaseline oil on the fan's axis, and used a vacuum cleaner to make the
fan spin for a while. I did the same to the CPU fan.

Is that stupid? Is there a better way to treat fans when they get dirty
and start whining?

Yup, replace them! Seriously, just how much does a fan cost? I
picked one up on sale a few months ago for $3.. and that was Canadian
funny-money too!

Now, when I try to boot the system, all the fans start to spin for a few
seconds (it varies from 1 to 4), then everything shuts down (I hear
strange sounds in the PSU), and the POWER LED on the front panel blinks
steadily (about 1 second on, then 1 second off) as if the PC was in some
sort of deep sleep mode.

Any idea what this means?

Sounds like an overloaded power supply to me, though you might want to
check with your motherboard manual to be sure. This is usually caused
by a short somewhere in your system, could be just about any
component.

After several hours testing different combinations, I noticed that I
could boot if I unplugged my hard disk drive (uh oh!). My HDD is an IBM
Deskstar 34GXP DPTA-372050.

Well, looks like you've narrowed down the issue right there. Hope
you've got good backups!

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/desk/ds34gxp.htm

I don't understand how cleaning the fans could have damaged the HDD.

A simple nudge of the wires could have been the final straw that broke
a connection inside the drive and created a short. Or it could be
pure random chance. Tough to say.

NOTE: A few weeks ago, I thought the drive was experiencing the "click
of death" (I thought it was a 75GXP, don't know if 34GXP were affected).
I downloaded the S.M.A.R.T. diagnostic tool from Hitachi, and ran it for
several hours. It found no problem with the drive.

Drives can often pass those tests with no faults at all and still be
bad. The SMART tests are definitely better than nothing, but they are
certainly not a sure-thing.

I'm hoping you guys have some suggestions for me

Get a new hard drive? :>

 

[Grumble]

I've been pulling my hair for 3 hours over this problem, so I thought
I'd ask in here, and see if people have had a similar problem.

Thanks Keith, CJT, George, and Tony! Your insight was very helpful.

The problem was the PSU indeed. In my (rather limited) experience,
PSU-funkiness is quite hard to diagnose, as there are many very
different possible symptoms. I'm thankful the PSU didn't take out my
other components when it died (which happened to a friend).

In the end, I payed only 14.50 EUR for a no-name 400W ATX PSU.

 

[keith]

Thanks Keith, CJT, George, and Tony! Your insight was very helpful.

The problem was the PSU indeed. In my (rather limited) experience,
PSU-funkiness is quite hard to diagnose, as there are many very
different possible symptoms. I'm thankful the PSU didn't take out my
other components when it died (which happened to a friend).

PSU's can certainly be flakey. L'Angel noticed this some few years back
and designed a tester (don't know how far she got with the
implementation) to stress PSUs. Actually I was hoping that someone would
pick this up and report. Apparently it's no sexy enough to catch the
attention of the webbers.

In the end, I payed only 14.50 EUR for a no-name 400W ATX PSU.

I don't like the sound of that! A good system cannot be built on a crap
PSU!

 

[CJT]

PSU's can certainly be flakey.

Amen. I had smoke pour out the back of one once. They take a lot
of stress.

L'Angel noticed this some few years back

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

PSU's can certainly be flakey. L'Angel noticed this some
few years back and designed a tester (don't know how far
she got with the implementation) to stress PSUs. Actually
I was hoping that someone would pick this up and report.

IIRC, she was trying static loads. I like lightbulbs for
load, but where'm I gonna find 100W @ 3 V? I believe the
german mag c't tests PSUs. But IIRC they're also static,
and PSUs have to make static or they don't get UL/TuV ratings.

I believe most PSU problems are dynamic -- an inability of
the PSU to handle current slew (too much ESR). I did once
get started on `burnPSU` but the damn thing was a bit of
a nightmare bootdisk to write.

AMD may have made the HLT powersavings Northbridge/BIOS
configurable specifically at the request of bottom-end
mfrs who didn't want to have to handle the current slew.

-- Robert author `cpuburn` http://pages.sbcglobal.net/redelm

 

[keith]

Amen. I had smoke pour out the back of one once. They take a lot
of stress.

Sure. The system (see: Cheap System in this group) I put together for a
friend was because a power surget let out all the magic smoke. I was able
to "replace" the system for a ham-sandwitch over what her insurance
company gave her for the smoking hulk. ;-)

 

[keith]

IIRC, she was trying static loads. I like lightbulbs for
load, but where'm I gonna find 100W @ 3 V?

That was L'Angel's original plan, but morfed into a dynamic tester. She
got some great tips from the folks on SED, though I don't know how far the
hardware went. Good resistors are hard to find (lightbulbs are *lousey*
resistors)

I believe the
german mag c't tests PSUs. But IIRC they're also static,
and PSUs have to make static or they don't get UL/TuV ratings.

Huh? UL is all about safety. They could care less about utility. What's
TuV?

I believe most PSU problems are dynamic -- an inability of the PSU to
handle current slew (too much ESR). I did once get started on `burnPSU`
but the damn thing was a bit of a nightmare bootdisk to write.

Sure, but a dynamic test shouldn't be too hard. A few resistors and FETs
should do it. I believe the reason it's not done is that PSU's are
Boorrringgg. THey don't make games go faster, rather can only bring them
to a halt. "If it works, it's good!"

AMD may have made the HLT powersavings Northbridge/BIOS configurable
specifically at the request of bottom-end mfrs who didn't want to have
to handle the current slew.

Ok... Why not slew the HLT? (oops!)

 

[The little lost angel]

IIRC, she was trying static loads. I like lightbulbs for
load, but where'm I gonna find 100W @ 3 V? I believe the
german mag c't tests PSUs. But IIRC they're also static,
and PSUs have to make static or they don't get UL/TuV ratings.

I believe most PSU problems are dynamic -- an inability of
the PSU to handle current slew (too much ESR). I did once
get started on `burnPSU` but the damn thing was a bit of
a nightmare bootdisk to write.

Hmm, we started with static loads and light bulbs but I eventually
ended up with a dynamic design that was supposed to change loads in
20Khz speeds. Not sure if this is enough to qualify for your dynamic
definition. Though my friend helping me do the construction looked
quite dimly upon the idea... largely due to the cost and the fact
neither of us are that sure we can actually make it work despite the
helpful info from the folks here and seb PpPp


As a side trip, from your experience, is it possible to shutdown the
clocks to the processor on a P4 (or AhtlonXP since I'm at it) via
software instructions that be done with a very simple DOS based
program? I'm trying to do a reverse of your burning the cpu and trying
to freeze it instead pPpP
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[The little lost angel]

That was L'Angel's original plan, but morfed into a dynamic tester. She
got some great tips from the folks on SED, though I don't know how far the
hardware went. Good resistors are hard to find (lightbulbs are *lousey*
resistors)

Didn't go too far when we realized that measuring the stuff would cost
a hundred times much more that the tester if we made it work. An
oscilloscope isn't cheap. A digital one that can store or externally
output the digital data of the waveforms for 4 channels at the same
time is expensive. The equivalent DAQ for a PC is hideously expensive.


Though all in all, it was an interesting diversion project. Between my
online queries and his offline studies/hands on, we picked up a lot of
stuff we wouldn't otherwise.

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Good resistors are hard to find (lightbulbs are *lousey*
resistors)

If you consider "good"==constant. I was using "good"==disippates
lots of heat.

Huh? UL is all about safety. They could care less about
utility. What's TuV?

TuV is the rough German equivalent to UL. Both will test or
requires PSUs to be tested at full wattage for long enough
to heat up to show they don't catch fire. Voltage might
sag, but that's more likely to cause overheating, too.

Sure, but a dynamic test shouldn't be too hard. A few
resistors and FETs should do it. I believe the reason

Yep, those'll work.

it's not done is that PSU's are Boorrringgg. THey don't
make games go faster, rather can only bring them to a halt.
"If it works, it's good!"
Agreed.

Ok... Why not slew the HLT? (oops!)

That takes brains

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Hmm, we started with static loads and light bulbs but I
eventually ended up with a dynamic design that was supposed
to change loads in 20Khz speeds. Not sure if this is enough
to qualify for your dynamic definition. Though my friend

This is definitely dynamic, and in the right range.
I think mobos switch around 100 kHz, and the PSUs are
considerably slower.

helping me do the construction looked quite dimly upon the
idea... largely due to the cost and the fact neither of

I want to use software only. CPU as power load.

As a side trip, from your experience, is it possible to
shutdown the clocks to the processor on a P4 (or AhtlonXP
since I'm at it) via software instructions that be done

"HLT" as implemented in most idle threads is about
as low as I know going, although some mobile CPUs
(really mobos) have more severe measures (downclock
and down volt, ie. Intel SpeedStep).

with a very simple DOS based program? I'm trying to do a
reverse of your burning the cpu and trying to freeze it
instead pPpP

A two byte MS-DOS pgm will work CLI / HLT, but for
AMD, the Northbridge StopGrant bit has to be enabled.
Both instructions are priviliged, and run only in Ring0.
For the P4, you can do BACK:REP NOP / JMP BACK.
I haven't measured REP NOP vs HLT.

-- Robert