PC Keeps resetting

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meow2222

Hi


An old celeron keeps resetting/rebooting during bootup. Seems to be ok
once OS is up and running though (W98). Its had a new CMOS battery, and
passed its 15 minute hardware test suite test. The OS was reinstalled,
so I dont think its a messed up OS.

Can this be anything other than a hardware problem? Have seen several
of these particular machines fail, boards prone to bad caps I gather.
If this one has to be replaced then so do several others, and it works
fine otherwise, so its worth some time on it.

333MHz 128M W98


thanks, NT
 
Hi


An old celeron keeps resetting/rebooting during bootup. Seems to be ok
once OS is up and running though (W98). Its had a new CMOS battery, and
passed its 15 minute hardware test suite test.

What is this 15 minute hardware test suite?
The OS was reinstalled,
so I dont think its a messed up OS.

Can this be anything other than a hardware problem?

If you had memory errors it could be windows still, check
the system with memtest86 if you hadn't already.
You might use the win98 boot menu to create a boot log if it
seems to be stopping at about the same point each time.

Have seen several
of these particular machines fail,

What particular machines? Make and model, and make/model of
motherboard might help... or at least put the info out there
in case someone else has a problem with the same gear.
boards prone to bad caps I gather.

Examine the caps, usually there is visual evidence of the
failure like domed or vented tops, or bottoms, leaky residue
or worst case, the top or bottom didn't give way and
pressure has built up swelling the sides of the cap.

What brand and values are the largest caps? Several (most?)
of the bad one have been identified by now, at least those
that are this old, have.

If this one has to be replaced then so do several others, and it works
fine otherwise, so its worth some time on it.

333MHz 128M W98

Do any of the others exhibit similar symptoms? Is there
anything unique about this one, ambient temp or usage
patterns or ???

On a system of this age there can also be bad contacts on
slots, cables, etc, though if the system hadn't been opened
recently or moved it would seem less likely. Beyond the
motherboard the power supply is another common failure
point. Also examine all fans for proper function.

See if Win98 will successfully boot to safe mode. Does it
ALWAYS fail to finish booting win98 or only a % of the time?
Does it seem to matter if the system had been off, had
cooled down versus having warmed up then a reset to retry
booting?
 
Hi


An old celeron keeps resetting/rebooting during bootup. Seems to be ok
once OS is up and running though (W98). Its had a new CMOS battery, and
passed its 15 minute hardware test suite test. The OS was reinstalled,
so I dont think its a messed up OS.

Can this be anything other than a hardware problem? Have seen several
of these particular machines fail, boards prone to bad caps I gather.
If this one has to be replaced then so do several others, and it works
fine otherwise, so its worth some time on it.

333MHz 128M W98


thanks, NT
check the hard disk also, it is not unusual to have bad blocks that
could lead to restarting during booting.
 
kony said:
On 23 Jun 2006 06:52:00 -0700, (e-mail address removed) wrote:

What is this 15 minute hardware test suite?
http://www.passmark.com/ftp/bitstd.exe



If you had memory errors it could be windows still, check
the system with memtest86

thanks, will do
f you hadn't already.
You might use the win98 boot menu to create a boot log if it
seems to be stopping at about the same point each time.



What particular machines? Make and model, and make/model of
motherboard might help... or at least put the info out there
in case someone else has a problem with the same gear.

PCChips M570 mobo. All these mobos are run not at their highest fsb
rating specifically to avoid the bad performance that sometimes results
with these boards.

Examine the caps, usually there is visual evidence of the
failure like domed or vented tops, or bottoms, leaky residue
or worst case, the top or bottom didn't give way and
pressure has built up swelling the sides of the cap.

What brand and values are the largest caps? Several (most?)
of the bad one have been identified by now, at least those
that are this old, have.

I know theyre types know to failure, but there are no external signs of
anything wrong, no bulging, no leaks. Some of these machines have been
scrapped previously due to inability to repair them.

Do any of the others exhibit similar symptoms?

Some died, refusing to even attempt to post. That was the main problem,
but theyre gone now. The survivors are presumed ok, afaik. I wont be
able to call them all in without a good reason.

Is there
anything unique about this one, ambient temp or usage
patterns or ???

no, not really.

On a system of this age there can also be bad contacts on
slots, cables, etc, though if the system hadn't been opened
recently or moved it would seem less likely.

Theyve been moved a lot, opened and so on, but all cables reseated has
never made a difference. These machines seem to be prone to a problem
no-one has got to the bottom of yet.

This is what was done with previous machines since gone:
remove most cards
remove all cards
remove some then all drives
reseat ram
reseat cables
swap ram
check/replace cmos battery
check psu voltages
check psu rails for ripple
swear
give up

Beyond the
motherboard the power supply is another common failure
point. Also examine all fans for proper function.

no overheating on these.
See if Win98 will successfully boot to safe mode. Does it
ALWAYS fail to finish booting win98 or only a % of the time?

It boots in normal mode every time, no need for safe mode. But its
quite common to take 2 goes at getting there, it gets part way thru
boot and suddenly its back to the POST.
Does it seem to matter if the system had been off, had
cooled down versus having warmed up then a reset to retry
booting?

It doesnt go away once warm, or occur when overheating, its always that
way. Once running it goes ok - only once has it suddenly reset during
use - but during bootup its wobbly.

Surface scan of hard disk revealed no problem there. Some including
this one have been formatted to eliminate other misc problems like
possible unidentified viri.

I wont have access to play with it for several days, but when I do I'll
give it a memtest workout. I'd like to get to the bottom of this as
several of these machines have been lost already, and I dont want to
scrap the lot if I can help it. Specs wise theyre more than enough for
the job, so there is really no desire to replace them.

thanks for the feedback!


NT
 
PCChips M570 mobo. All these mobos are run not at their highest fsb
rating specifically to avoid the bad performance that sometimes results
with these boards.

PC Chips? No wonder! They are notorious for making flaky unreliable
hardware. I had a PC Chips motherboard once upon a time - it died after
about 6 months. Also my friend has one (fortunately it was free) and it
often decides to not recognise the keyboard, leading to *interesting*
results.

I guess you get what you pay for...
 
I know theyre types know to failure, but there are no external signs of
anything wrong, no bulging, no leaks. Some of these machines have been
scrapped previously due to inability to repair them.

PCChips boards tend to be made with very few capacitors.
They have have a different kind of capacitor problem, that
instead of outright failure, there was a smaller margin for
stable operation as new and then the capacitors age and
degreade (as all do), which puts the PCChips boards below
the necessary stability threshold. I can't be certain this
is what has been happening to your boards, it is but one
possible explaination.

Some died, refusing to even attempt to post. That was the main problem,
but theyre gone now. The survivors are presumed ok, afaik. I wont be
able to call them all in without a good reason.

I'd call the good reason "end of life, old systems are a
liability". This would be true regardless of any problems,
regardless of whether they're PCChips or some other brand
but we don't know how much system downtime would cost you.

This is what was done with previous machines since gone:
remove most cards
remove all cards
remove some then all drives
reseat ram
reseat cables
swap ram
check/replace cmos battery
check psu voltages
check psu rails for ripple
swear
give up

The one remaining thing I would do is clear CMOS, and try
another newer (known good) power supply.


I wont have access to play with it for several days, but when I do I'll
give it a memtest workout. I'd like to get to the bottom of this as
several of these machines have been lost already, and I dont want to
scrap the lot if I can help it. Specs wise theyre more than enough for
the job, so there is really no desire to replace them.

thanks for the feedback!


You might also run Prime95's Torture Test, the large
in-place FFTs, setting. Watch for errors in that test or a
similar problem seen when booting. I'm wondering if it is
simply a matter of the higher current seen while booting vs.
a lower current when the systems are idle.
 
kony said:
On 23 Jun 2006 14:20:12 -0700, (e-mail address removed) wrote:

PCChips boards tend to be made with very few capacitors.
They have have a different kind of capacitor problem, that
instead of outright failure, there was a smaller margin for
stable operation as new and then the capacitors age and
degreade (as all do), which puts the PCChips boards below
the necessary stability threshold. I can't be certain this
is what has been happening to your boards, it is but one
possible explaination.
ahhhh



I'd call the good reason "end of life, old systems are a
liability". This would be true regardless of any problems,
regardless of whether they're PCChips or some other brand

I dont understand that. I'm familiar with the bathtub curve etc but PCs
arent normally anywhere near the steep bit of the curve at that age. Re
pcchips, yes I got what someone else paid for, but its what we've got,
and are unlikely to be getting any more for a bit yet.

but we don't know how much system downtime would cost you.

it would not be a good option at all to pull these out now. Wrong time
entirely, hence trying to figure out how to diagnose/fix them. In past
it would have been no big, in future ditto, but not now :)

The one remaining thing I would do is clear CMOS, and try
another newer (known good) power supply.

I know theyre good, had the dvm on them and theyre right on the mark,
with no measurable ripple. Will try cmos defaults too.

You might also run Prime95's Torture Test, the large
in-place FFTs, setting. Watch for errors in that test or a
similar problem seen when booting. I'm wondering if it is
simply a matter of the higher current seen while booting vs.
a lower current when the systems are idle.

I'm going to try memtest and prime when I next get to them. Thanks!


NT
 
I dont understand that. I'm familiar with the bathtub curve etc but PCs
arent normally anywhere near the steep bit of the curve at that age. Re
pcchips, yes I got what someone else paid for, but its what we've got,
and are unlikely to be getting any more for a bit yet.

After a few years you have several cumulative effects-

- dust/dirt/residue/etc accumulation on contacts

- fans "might" be wearing out

- battery replacement. A battery is cheap, but the time to
order, stock, go around and open all systems changing the
battery then setting CMOS values, may not be so cheap.
Another cost weighed against value of system.

- another service interval is needed, the time (value of
it) offsets the value of the system which has been dropping
until the time is worth more than value of system

- hard drives aged, significant failure point

- motherboard, video, PSU, etc, electrolytic capacitors
wearing out. Cheap systems in the Pentium 1-2 era can be
expected to have a shorter life from this factor than
earlier that used a larger percentage of tantalum caps, and
higher voltage, lower current

- year after year of power surges... eventually take their
toll. Even a surge protector has to have "some" kind of
threshold, under which surges get through. Maybe it only
effects the power supply, but as with the time to do
maintenance, time to diagnose, time to buy and install, and
cost of a power supply are all weighed against the value of
the system.

- Expected lifespan or failure rate is merely an average.
Suppose the systems are "on average" expected to last
another 4 years but you have 25 of them. 4 might fail in
the next 2 years, or 15 might. What did the downtime cost?
Could be $0, or could easily be several hundred dollars per
event if not a LOT more.... Only you can know this, or have
enough info to attempt a calculation.

- M570 appears to have been released in late '97, even if
the system wasn't built or deployed at that point the board
may have been manufacturered and sitting, aging. Almost a
decade old, we actually don't have any data to compare and
determine that such systems WOULD last over 10 years. As
mentioned above, this was a newer era of switching onboard
power, higher currents and more extensive use of
electrolytic capacitors. These systems failing now are not
necessarily a symptom of a problem in lifespan that goes
against the "norm" but rather, are the beginnings of
evidence on what the expected lifespan of the technology
really is... if it were't that they were PCChips boards, and
possibly the systems are equipped with similarly low-end PSU
and fans?

it would not be a good option at all to pull these out now. Wrong time
entirely, hence trying to figure out how to diagnose/fix them. In past
it would have been no big, in future ditto, but not now :)

If they can't be pulled all at once, one at a time may have
to suffice. How do you suppose to "fix" them?
You had the previous dead system, yes? Did you trash all
the parts? Swapping known good parts for questionable ones
would isolate each variable. Perhaps you can pull each
board in turn and replace all the significant capacitors...
it is a non-trival amount of time (including downtime) and
cost as well... all to keep using systems of little to no
value that will need to be replaced anyway since having the
caps replaced doesn't eliminate any of the other issues.

I know theyre good, had the dvm on them and theyre right on the mark,
with no measurable ripple. Will try cmos defaults too.

You cannot alway conclude "good" by taking a voltage reading
with a DVM. It is a better way to indicate a problem rather
than declare there aren't any.
 
kony said:
On 24 Jun 2006 14:46:42 -0700, (e-mail address removed) wrote:

After a few years you have several cumulative effects-

snip


Thanks for the feedback. Let me put it this way, we're not in America.


NT
 
(e-mail address removed) wrote:

re PC that keeps resetting during bootup, but is fine once running.

Memtest ran overnight and no errors at all. But it wouldnt reboot after
that, just kept resetting every time at the same point in the boot
process each time, the moment the cd spins up. Psu lines were checked,
the 12v line varied from 12.5 to 12.7v during cd run. 5v line also
wavered a little at this time, but well within spec.

PSU was replaced, and since I had to remove the cdrom to do it I put
another cdrom in as well, on the basis it was no more work and might be
a partially shorted motor. Behaviour perfect.

Bit fed up messing with it but it has to stay up right now, one of
those times.

Thanks for all the assistance.


NT
 
(e-mail address removed) wrote:

re PC that keeps resetting during bootup, but is fine once running.

Memtest ran overnight and no errors at all. But it wouldnt reboot
after that, just kept resetting every time at the same point in the
boot process each time, the moment the cd spins up. Psu lines were
checked, the 12v line varied from 12.5 to 12.7v during cd run. 5v
line also wavered a little at this time, but well within spec.

PSU was replaced, and since I had to remove the cdrom to do it I put
another cdrom in as well, on the basis it was no more work and might
be a partially shorted motor. Behaviour perfect.

Bit fed up messing with it but it has to stay up right now, one of
those times.

Thanks for all the assistance.

So are you saying that it's fixed now? It's hard to read what you're saying.
 
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