Papers for photo work Epson R1800

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Paul Furman

I posted this about a month ago combined with another question and never
got a response about the paper question. I'm crossposting to
comp.periphs.printers & rec.photo.digital.slr-systems this time.

I just picked up a couple things at Calumet Camera, they have a decent
selection I could look at... the salesman said people use matte for
landscape work, pearl for portrait (shrug?) I'm used to glossy though I
guess the glare is annoying. I saw some pearl/semigloss and that all has
a bumpy texture. Hmm... I really don't know... opinions?
 
Paul said:
I posted this about a month ago combined with another question and never
got a response about the paper question. I'm crossposting to
comp.periphs.printers & rec.photo.digital.slr-systems this time.

I just picked up a couple things at Calumet Camera, they have a decent
selection I could look at... the salesman said people use matte for
landscape work, pearl for portrait (shrug?) I'm used to glossy though I
guess the glare is annoying. I saw some pearl/semigloss and that all has
a bumpy texture. Hmm... I really don't know... opinions?

oh, the original sourcing research...
--

I'm in the US, West Coast if that matters for other suppliers.

http://www.eximvaios.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=2_252_383
Premium Glossy Photo Paper
13"x100 ft roll $71.84 = $0.66/sf
13"x32 ft roll $45.00 = $1.30/sf
13"x19" 100 shts $150.00 = $0.88/sf
-this is basically what I'm used to but supposedly this printer is a
little funny on glossy paper so people talk about using matte or
semi-gloss. The sample enhanced matte paper that came with the printer
is awful, I assume the fancier stuff is better? If I go with gloss, my
old prints will match. Does one or the other use more ink?

http://www.pictorico.com/category/5-PGHG-White-Film.htm
-supposed to be really nice bright colors
Photo Gallery Hi-Gloss White Film
13 x 19 20 shts $98.38 = $2.87/sf

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/index.php?mid=936&lng=us
-supposed to make gorgeous matte prints but really expensive?? Moab
supposed to be 30-40% cheaper with similar look:
http://redrockinnovations.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=IJG
Entrada® Fine Art 190 Natural (MOAB)
8.5x11 [25] $24.30 = $1.50/sf (check math?)
Entrada® Fine Art 190 13x66 [ROLL] Out of Stock $82.80
-it turns out this one is 'natural' meaning kind of yellowed but they
offer a bright white also. It's like watercolor paper.

That same site has Ilford 'Pearl' products which I recall folks saying
works well with an Epson R1800 but am not sure which one:
Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl (and Classic Pearl?)
13x19 [25] $31.95
-none of those in 13" rolls though.
 
Paul said:
oh, the original sourcing research...
--

I'm in the US, West Coast if that matters for other suppliers.

http://www.eximvaios.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=2_252_383
Premium Glossy Photo Paper
13"x100 ft roll $71.84 = $0.66/sf
13"x32 ft roll $45.00 = $1.30/sf
13"x19" 100 shts $150.00 = $0.88/sf
-this is basically what I'm used to but supposedly this printer is a
little funny on glossy paper so people talk about using matte or
semi-gloss. The sample enhanced matte paper that came with the printer
is awful, I assume the fancier stuff is better? If I go with gloss, my
old prints will match. Does one or the other use more ink?
Nah... the printer's fine on glossy - but it won't be as glossy as a dye
ink printer on premium swellable polymer stock. I love it for snaps,
hate it for large prints - but that's a personal thing. The enhanced
matte should be fine - the matte heavyweight isn't. To me, matte is the
way to go with big prints. Nope they don't always look like *real*
photographs - but are stunning.
Ink usage - god knows if one media uses *significantly* more than
another... If you print 19x13's though, you do want to get it right
first time. The paper is costing you as much as the ink.
http://www.pictorico.com/category/5-PGHG-White-Film.htm
-supposed to be really nice bright colors
Photo Gallery Hi-Gloss White Film
13 x 19 20 shts $98.38 = $2.87/sf ouch...

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/index.php?mid=936&lng=us
-supposed to make gorgeous matte prints but really expensive?? Moab
supposed to be 30-40% cheaper with similar look:
http://redrockinnovations.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=IJG

Entrada® Fine Art 190 Natural (MOAB)
8.5x11 [25] $24.30 = $1.50/sf (check math?)
Entrada® Fine Art 190 13x66 [ROLL] Out of Stock $82.80
-it turns out this one is 'natural' meaning kind of yellowed but they
offer a bright white also. It's like watercolor paper.

That same site has Ilford 'Pearl' products which I recall folks saying
works well with an Epson R1800 but am not sure which one:
Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl (and Classic Pearl?)
13x19 [25] $31.95
-none of those in 13" rolls though.
Works well - the "smooth" range is the one to use.
Forget "Classic" for any pigment printer. The Ilford Smooth Pearl is
similar to Epson Premium Semi-Gloss, but whiter (and less expensive).
Profiles are downloadable from Ilford's site. They have also some fine
art paper, but quite expensive, I can't get a sample pack, and haven't
seen any reports on it. At the price, I'm not going to fork out for a
pack "just to see".
 
Paul Furman said:
Paul Furman wrote:

I've had people "suggest" to me that "you need to use this type of paper for
this kind of image" etc - and yet for me, I find that the photos I find most
stunning are often the ones that "break the traditional rules".

My suggestion would be to go with what you like - so that it becomes a
product of your imagination and creation, and not someone elses - Chances
are some people will say "I like it - because it's different"

I'm using the Epson 7800 for my printing these days - it does a damn fine
job, but the one thing I have learned is that it's ESSENTIAL to use the
right profile for whatever paper you choose - if you're going to stick with
only one or two papers then you might like to consider having a profile
created for your printer / media combination - and make sure you calibrate
your monitor too.

I watch ink levels very closely to track costs - and my experience is that
gloss / canvas / satin don't have any appreciable difference in ink used.
 
Nah... the printer's fine on glossy - but it won't be as glossy as a dye
ink printer on premium swellable polymer stock. I love it for snaps,
hate it for large prints - but that's a personal thing. The enhanced
matte should be fine - the matte heavyweight isn't. To me, matte is the
way to go with big prints. Nope they don't always look like *real*
photographs - but are stunning.
Ink usage - god knows if one media uses *significantly* more than
another... If you print 19x13's though, you do want to get it right
first time. The paper is costing you as much as the ink.


I find this to be a good general rule, ie.,
glossy paper for "smallish" prints that will
be hand-held and viewed up-close. Matte
paper for larger prints that will be hung
on a wall and viewed from a "reasonable"
distance.

Glossy substrates can hold more detail and
gamut, and these become more important in
small prints. Conversely, matte papers
work well on large, framed prints.

So far with my R1800 I've been pleased
with results on both the Premium Glossy
and Enhanced Matte papers -- both from
Epson.

I also use Enhanced Matte on my Epson 7000,
with its dye inks.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
 
rafe said:
Glossy substrates can hold more detail and
gamut, and these become more important in
small prints. Conversely, matte papers
work well on large, framed prints.

Thanks, this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I was really
dissapointed with the Enhanced Matte samples that came with the
printer... perhaps because it was also thin and only letter size.

Wouldn't you know I screwed up yesterday & bought 20 sheets of 13x19
glossy epson & 20 letter size heavy Moab matte fine art. But it seems
the other way around would make more sense!

I happened to have a bunch of really cheap 'construction paper' and
tried a couple prints on that. 12"x18" turns out a perfect size needing
no cropping and it honestly looks just fine to me since that's only
167dpi for a 6MP image, it doesn't need to be anything fancy. Of course
it'll yellow and is a joke but... I'll use that for architectural prints.

It's been so long since I did B&W darkroom prints but I think I used a
semi-gloss without texture. Why do all the pearl/semi-gloss have that
texture? What's that about? Just kind adds some sexiness for soft
portrait work? It seems messy for my purposes. Does inkjet look bad on
smooth semi-gloss because of the reflectivity?

Is the pigment ink suitable for glossy? It seems this new inkset with
gloss optimiser has overcome those problems I had with the old Epson C80
so really glossy performs just great now. But the reflections can be
annoying when hanging on a wall if the lighting isn't just so.
 
C said:
I've had people "suggest" to me that "you need to use this type of paper for
this kind of image" etc - and yet for me, I find that the photos I find most
stunning are often the ones that "break the traditional rules".

My suggestion would be to go with what you like - so that it becomes a
product of your imagination and creation, and not someone elses - Chances
are some people will say "I like it - because it's different"

Yes, that's good advice and I'm willing to break rules but I'm just
rather clueless what the advantages & disadvantages are at this point.
What are people's experiences with different papers for a particular
look? I want to settle on something so I can get it profiled and move
foreward and not waste too much time experimenting... focus on the
photography.
 
OK, so I've done a little testing and the Fine Art Bright Moab Entrada
(watercolor) is more contrasty with richer colors, the Epson Premium
Glossy (and Calumet generic) hold more actual sharp detail but the
colors aren't as rich. The satin/semigloss generic is similar but I
still think the bumpy texture muddles the detail and adds unnecessary
junk though the satin sheen is more pleasing than the rude glare of full
gloss, I guess the texture is OK as long as you don't get up close.

I'm pretty sure I got the profiles right though I'm not terribly
concerned about that really. It's all coming out close enough to what I
see on the monitor, the only issue is if my comparison of brighter
colors or more contrasty is due to profiling problems. The Moab Fine Art
Bright is supposed to get richer colors and it does, I'm just not sure
if I like the dull matte look after years of printing glossy. I guess
glossy is more flashy & impressive where matte is more tasteful and
understated... though if the colors are really richer (not just a
profile messup) then I like that aspect. Was there ever such a thing as
totally glossless matte photo paper before inkjets? Part of me feels the
matte just looks like an injet print on plain paper and maybe that's why
it looks lame at 8x10 but at poster sizes, it's clearly not cheap and at
those sizes gloss is annoying with a wrinkly plastic celophane look.
Poster size film prints seem to use a much higher quality thick paper
than Epson Premium Glossy.

One more consideration is that I'd like to make a portfolio of 13x19
prints to carry around & show. What paper is suitable for that?
Presumably those would be in clear plastic pockets so matte may be fine
& gloss might be more prone to stick or make double reflections.

What about framing? I always liked the 'French Clip' idea with just a
sheet of glass, unobtrusive stainless steel clips and a black backing
board. I've heard you shouldn't press glass against prints but I'm
guessing that only applies to gloss and wouldn't be a problem for matte
watercolor paper.

Also the Epson Premium Gloss... is that archival, acid free & all? If
I'm selling prints that matters.

The 13" x 19" cuts down nicely to 9-1/2" x 13" and that means less
cropping and a little more generous than 8-1/2" x 11". I really don't
like cropping for the 8-1/2" x 11" aspect ratio. The custom paper size
isn't permitted with borderless though... and that's a lot more work
trimming!
 
Yes, that's good advice and I'm willing to break rules but I'm just
rather clueless what the advantages & disadvantages are at this point.
What are people's experiences with different papers for a particular
look? I want to settle on something so I can get it profiled and move
foreward and not waste too much time experimenting... focus on the
photography.

My suggestion would be to start with a high gloss - I think it's a better
all-rounder, and has a bigger gamut than most other papers. I use Kodak
260gsm Rapid Dry, which is a heavy paper - but if the prints are going to be
framed then a 190gsm paper will be fine.

You should also grab a copy of "Real World Color Management" 2nd edition by
Fraser, Murphy, and Bunting - it's the current definitive text on what
you're going to need to know.

Cheers,

Colin
 
I've used Ultra Pro Satin paper from Red River with our R1800 to make some
very vibrant and stunning 13 x 19 inch photos. This is a luster type paper
with a fine ripple semi-gloss sheen. It's taken me awhile to get the hang of
this printer but I'm now highly enjoying the superb quality of its output.
I'm readying myself to move to the spongeless refillable cartridges from
MIS and their ink, which is supposedly equivalent to Epson, as well as
archival, and finally get beyond the last hurdle of enormous cost to operate
this printer.
 
rafe b said:
I find this to be a good general rule, ie.,
glossy paper for "smallish" prints that will
be hand-held and viewed up-close. Matte
paper for larger prints that will be hung
on a wall and viewed from a "reasonable"
distance.

Glossy substrates can hold more detail and
gamut, and these become more important in
small prints. Conversely, matte papers
work well on large, framed prints.

So far with my R1800 I've been pleased
with results on both the Premium Glossy
and Enhanced Matte papers -- both from
Epson.

Anybody using Epson Premium Luster? I like it for anything 8x10 and down.
In fact I wish they made it in 4x6, too, then I would just skip the Glossy.

Greg
 
Paul said:
OK, so I've done a little testing and the Fine Art Bright Moab Entrada
(watercolor) is more contrasty with richer colors, the Epson Premium
Glossy (and Calumet generic) hold more actual sharp detail but the
colors aren't as rich. The satin/semigloss generic is similar but I
still think the bumpy texture muddles the detail and adds unnecessary
junk though the satin sheen is more pleasing than the rude glare of full
gloss, I guess the texture is OK as long as you don't get up close.

I'm pretty sure I got the profiles right though I'm not terribly
concerned about that really. It's all coming out close enough to what I
see on the monitor, the only issue is if my comparison of brighter
colors or more contrasty is due to profiling problems. The Moab Fine Art
Bright is supposed to get richer colors and it does, I'm just not sure
if I like the dull matte look after years of printing glossy. I guess
glossy is more flashy & impressive where matte is more tasteful and
understated... though if the colors are really richer (not just a
profile messup) then I like that aspect. Was there ever such a thing as
totally glossless matte photo paper before inkjets? Part of me feels the
matte just looks like an injet print on plain paper and maybe that's why
it looks lame at 8x10 but at poster sizes, it's clearly not cheap and at
those sizes gloss is annoying with a wrinkly plastic celophane look.
Poster size film prints seem to use a much higher quality thick paper
than Epson Premium Glossy.

One more consideration is that I'd like to make a portfolio of 13x19
prints to carry around & show. What paper is suitable for that?
Presumably those would be in clear plastic pockets so matte may be fine
& gloss might be more prone to stick or make double reflections.
The gloss shouldn't stick - so long as you let it dry. With matte
papers, the surface can be marred relatively easily - ending up with
polished shiny patches if not handled carefully. Semi-Gloss is
extremely durable when dry - and washable - you can clean it with a soft
damp cloth no problem.
Watch that pockets are not made of PVC, as the plasticiser from the
plastic will leach and mar the paper eventually.
What about framing? I always liked the 'French Clip' idea with just a
sheet of glass, unobtrusive stainless steel clips and a black backing
board. I've heard you shouldn't press glass against prints but I'm
guessing that only applies to gloss and wouldn't be a problem for matte
watercolor paper.
You could still do a french clip frame with a mat to keep the paper off
the glass. I guess that matte paper probably would be okay against the
glass, but my guess could be wrong.
Also the Epson Premium Gloss... is that archival, acid free & all? If
I'm selling prints that matters.
Yes. Dark storage >200 years. Display permanence rating with R1800
still under test by Wilhelm, but probably around 100 years.
The 13" x 19" cuts down nicely to 9-1/2" x 13" and that means less
cropping and a little more generous than 8-1/2" x 11". I really don't
like cropping for the 8-1/2" x 11" aspect ratio. The custom paper size
isn't permitted with borderless though... and that's a lot more work
trimming!

Print two at a time on full 19x13 borderless, then cut in half!
 
frederick said:
Yes. Dark storage >200 years. Display permanence rating with R1800
still under test by Wilhelm, but probably around 100 years.
Sorry - misread that.
Semi-Gloss still under test. Gloss 104 years DPR. That is framed
behind glass. 175 years with UV filter glass, 34 years "bare bulb", and
over 300 years album dark storage!
 
Jan said:
I've used Ultra Pro Satin paper from Red River with our R1800 to make some
very vibrant and stunning 13 x 19 inch photos. This is a luster type paper
with a fine ripple semi-gloss sheen. It's taken me awhile to get the hang of
this printer but I'm now highly enjoying the superb quality of its output.
I'm readying myself to move to the spongeless refillable cartridges from
MIS and their ink,
ANOTHER FOOL IS BORN
which is supposedly equivalent to Epson,
YOU NEVER KNOW CAUSE THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE SELLING YOU
 
frederick said:
Sorry - misread that.
Semi-Gloss still under test. Gloss 104 years DPR. That is framed
behind glass. 175 years with UV filter glass, 34 years "bare bulb", and
over 300 years album dark storage!

Just a little caveat to archival tests - they're valid ONLY for a given ink
/ paper combination - so, for example, a WIR report that says K3 inks on
Epson Gloss paper might last 83 years bears no co-relation to that ink used
on, say, Kodak's "equivalent" paper.
 
One more consideration is that I'd like to make a portfolio of 13x19
prints to carry around & show. What paper is suitable for that?
Presumably those would be in clear plastic pockets so matte may be fine
& gloss might be more prone to stick or make double reflections.

We've got an interesting situation at the moment. The Epson 9800 uses the
new K3 inks - which are supposed to be particularly scuff resistant - and
yet we're finding that the surface of both gloss and satin are easily
damaged. It's not an issue of the ink coming off - just one of the surface
marring. To be honest, after researching the issue we've come to the
conclusion that inkjet printing is fine for things being framed - may
possibly be OK in albums if the pages are seperated with rice paper
(otherwise more scuffing) - and totally unsuitable for printing 4 x 6 that
get handled like P & S prints from the camera shop.

We've also tried spraying with a protective coat - it makes the print a bit
more abrasion resistant, but even something as innocent as sliding another 4
x 6 around on top of it with very light pressure produces many fine (and
permanant) scratches.
What about framing? I always liked the 'French Clip' idea with just a
sheet of glass, unobtrusive stainless steel clips and a black backing
board. I've heard you shouldn't press glass against prints but I'm
guessing that only applies to gloss and wouldn't be a problem for matte
watercolor paper.

It helps to spray them first (and either way, let things dry for at least a
day), but we've had prolems with both sorts of paper sticking to the glass.
It starts out looking like a small spot (or group of spots) but gets worse -
and when you try to remove the photo it will stick to the glass at these
points, ruining the photo. Using a mat within the frame to keep it off the
glass is the only 100% safe way, damn it!
 
Jan said:
I've used Ultra Pro Satin paper from Red River with our R1800 to make some
very vibrant and stunning 13 x 19 inch photos. This is a luster type paper
with a fine ripple semi-gloss sheen. It's taken me awhile to get the hang of
this printer but I'm now highly enjoying the superb quality of its output.
I'm readying myself to move to the spongeless refillable cartridges from
MIS and their ink, which is supposedly equivalent to Epson, as well as
archival, and finally get beyond the last hurdle of enormous cost to operate
this printer.

Good, very smart move on your part. You'll not notice any difference
other than the money you save.
Frank
 
Just a little caveat to archival tests - they're valid ONLY for a given ink
/ paper combination - so, for example, a WIR report that says K3 inks on
Epson Gloss paper might last 83 years bears no co-relation to that ink used
on, say, Kodak's "equivalent" paper.


I take some exception to that.

The matching of ink to paper is extremely
important for *dye* inks, but less so, I think
for pigment inks.

The reason is that in the dye ink case, if
there's any longevity to speak of, it comes
from the properties of the paper - eg., HP's
DesignJet inkset and the corresponding
swellable-polymer papers.

OTOH, for pigment inks, the relative
lightfastness is inherent in the ink itself
-- so the paper (it seems to me) would be
less important in the overall equation.

That's not to say that the paper itself
won't degrade over time. It only means
that the pigment particles will hold
their color more or less independently
from the paper.

It turns out, however, that pigment inks
may be just as susceptible, if not more
so than dyes, to airborne oxidants. So
there's a growing consensus that prints
with pigment inks should be coated or
laminated for best longevity.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
 
rafe b said:
I take some exception to that.

The matching of ink to paper is extremely
important for *dye* inks, but less so, I think
for pigment inks.

The "Duck's Nuts" when it comes to this kind of thing is the work being done
by Wilhelm Imaging Research, headed by chief scientist Henry Wilhelm.

I'll copy any paste what he has to say on the matter, based on an interview
.... To cut a long story short, traditionally dye based inks are cause for
more concern, but unfortunately pigment-based inks aren't immune.

Chris and Larry: Your work as a pioneer in the field of image permanence has
shown you both the good and bad about ink jet printers. How can a
photographer pick an ink jet printer that they can trust to make prints that
will be around for decades?

Henry Wilhelm: The simple answer is to pick a printer for which print
permanence data is available for the ink and media combinations used for
that printer.

....

Chris and Larry: That is an excellent point. It is not just the type of ink
that will affect the image stability, but the combination of the ink and
paper used. When a manufacturer says that their printers produce prints that
will last a certain length of time, one should carefully look at the exact
paper and ink combination they used. Is it safe to assume that they always
use their own papers with their inks in testing?

Henry Wilhelm: Yes, although manufacturers themselves often will publish
data just for their paper that does the best, even though they have
additional papers available.

Chris and Larry: So if one reads that a given printer will make a print that
will last for a hundred years or more when displayed, one should immediately
ask exactly what paper the test was done on. Often that is not stated very
clearly. Would it be safe then to believe that, using the exact ink and
paper, one can probably achieve the same kind of archival image stability?

Henry Wilhelm: Yes. Most of the quoted numbers have been for exposure to
light on long term display. In general, the data have been for prints framed
under glass. I think we also need to talk about susceptibility to ozone for
prints that may be exposed to ambient atmosphere for long periods of time.
Prints that are not framed under glass, for example the classic refrigerator
display conditions or prints tacked to the wall in your office, things like
that. Especially smaller prints which will never be framed under glass.
There is a special concern about porous or microporous papers with dye based
inks and greater susceptibility of these papers to ozone. I think from the
reader's standpoint, the simple way to distinguish between porous and
microporous and swellable papers is that if the paper package says instant
dry. That's pretty good assurance that it is a microporous type. And if the
printer is using dye based inks, which the majority of current desktop photo
printers are using, then you can probably assume that your prints on
microporous paper probably has a high susceptibility to ozone. You have to
be careful there.
 
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