Paper Size (plus Smear) Questions

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WhoTurnedOffTheLights

Hey there, I've made some fantastic looking prints from my older HP 940c
color inkjet many times in the past.

What I would always use is Glossy paper.

Questions:

8 x 10: Why is it so darn hard to find? (or am I looking in the wrong
places?)
8 1/2 x 11 Frames: Why are they also so hard to find?

As you might gather, I don't care if I'm using either size, just as long as
I can frame it.

On another note: When I've printed on glossy, I've found that the ink can
smear when water is applied to it. Are there better inks these days for the
newer printers? or better papers to avoid this smearing?

I AM thinking about finally investing in a new printer but apart from all
the many obvious things to keep in mind, the above items are at the
forefront right now.

Thanks in advance for insight, info and whatever else. :-)
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
Hey there, I've made some fantastic looking prints from my older HP 940c
color inkjet many times in the past.

What I would always use is Glossy paper.

Questions:

8 x 10: Why is it so darn hard to find? (or am I looking in the wrong
places?)
8 1/2 x 11 Frames: Why are they also so hard to find?

As you might gather, I don't care if I'm using either size, just as long
as I can frame it.

On another note: When I've printed on glossy, I've found that the ink can
smear when water is applied to it. Are there better inks these days for
the newer printers? or better papers to avoid this smearing?

I AM thinking about finally investing in a new printer but apart from all
the many obvious things to keep in mind, the above items are at the
forefront right now.

Thanks in advance for insight, info and whatever else. :-)
What brand printer, paper, and ink? Dye based inks generally produce prints
that are not waterproof. Doesn't matter much if you are framing the prints
under glass.

I don't know why, but the stores where I buy frames (Cheap Pete's and Aaron
Brothers) carry very few 8.5x11 frames. I haven't purchased any 8x10 photo
paper. Does anyone make it? Since so many papers are available in 8.5x11 I
print 8x10's on that size. I then cut it on a paper cutter if I want to
display it in and 8x10 frame. I generally don't do that, however, as I like
my prints matted. 11x14 frames with precut mats with a cutout for 8x10
pictures (actually 7.5x9.5 cutout) display these prints very nicely. I
print to a size slightly smaller than the cutout and add an outline in
black, or sometimes a thin white line closest to the picture and then a
black line next to the mat) to set the print off better. Looks like a
double mat.

Exclusive of the printer you purchase, using a program that permits cropping
your picture to a custom size (and adding a contrasting liner if you wish)
will make the availability of the 8x10 paper and 8.5x11 frames moot.
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
8 x 10: Why is it so darn hard to find? (or am I looking in the wrong
places?)
8 1/2 x 11 Frames: Why are they also so hard to find?

I'd invest in a decent cutter and use A4 paper - it's probably the same
price as 10x8 anyway.
On another note: When I've printed on glossy, I've found that the ink can
smear when water is applied to it. Are there better inks these days for the
newer printers? or better papers to avoid this smearing?

Dye based inks are more prone to this than pigment inks but neither is 100%
waterproof. If you want it waterproof consider spraying the print with a
lacquer or a product designed for the job. I've had very good results with
ordinary lacquer but you must pay attention to the edges. Spray after you
cut to size for example.
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
Questions:

8 x 10: Why is it so darn hard to find? (or am I looking in the wrong
places?) 8 1/2 x 11 Frames: Why are they also so hard to find?

In Europe you wouldn't have this problem: print and frame A4 (8,25 x
11.7 approx).
 
Burt said:
What brand printer, paper, and ink? Dye based inks generally produce
prints that are not waterproof. Doesn't matter much if you are framing
the prints under glass.

Hello Burt and thanks for the input. The ink and printer have always been
HP. Even with older printers of mine, I've never gone any other direction.
This smearing thing had nothing to do with my framing question. It's just
other personal projects of mine.
I don't know why, but the stores where I buy frames (Cheap Pete's and
Aaron Brothers) carry very few 8.5x11 frames. I haven't purchased any
8x10 photo paper. Does anyone make it?

Yeah, usually I shop at Staples or Office Depot but hadn't found anything.
Although an online search for "8 x 10 Glossy Paper" through Google Does
brings up results I've not had any experience ordering paper through the
mail.....'and would rather not anyhow. :-((
 
CWatters said:
I'd invest in a decent cutter and use A4 paper - it's probably the same
price as 10x8 anyway.

Thx CWatters, yup, I think it might be time to finally splurge on a good
paper cutter. 'been turned off for years since they're not cheap.
Do they have A4 Glossy? I'll check right now. I can see the logic of using
it for the extra margin for the sake of cutting.
Dye based inks are more prone to this than pigment inks but neither is
100%
waterproof. If you want it waterproof consider spraying the print with a
lacquer or a product designed for the job. I've had very good results with
ordinary lacquer but you must pay attention to the edges. Spray after you
cut to size for example.

Uhuh, I thought there might be something like this. It'll be good to
experiment anyhow just to see the results. Thanks again CW.
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
Thx CWatters, yup, I think it might be time to finally splurge on a good
paper cutter. 'been turned off for years since they're not cheap.
Do they have A4 Glossy? I'll check right now. I can see the logic of using
it for the extra margin for the sake of cutting.

The ONLY paper cutter I will ever own is a mini or larger "exacta-type"
knife. Takes no time to cut and nothing beats it. Blades are dirt cheap
at dollar store. For photos I merely use a known 4x6 as a size guide,
cutting only to the 4 inch width. Trim later. I make precision CD liners
and even cut the right side absolutely flush off 94 page booklets (thick
paper) with death defying precision. Let's see any rotary paper cutter
do that. :-)

The Costco photo paper handles like it was waterproof, but water can
still damage it. There is more waterproof paper, I have some. Search net
Net with Google. You should be able to come up with something. Okay, I
checked mine it's Compujet by American Ink Jet Corporation. It's called
Waterproof Photo Glossy. They say it's "smudge-proof and scratch-
proof...and small outdoor posters". Can't say it is, I haven't tried
torture testing it. :-)

-Taliesyn
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
Hello Burt and thanks for the input. The ink and printer have always been
HP. Even with older printers of mine, I've never gone any other direction.
This smearing thing had nothing to do with my framing question. It's just
other personal projects of mine.


Yeah, usually I shop at Staples or Office Depot but hadn't found anything.
Although an online search for "8 x 10 Glossy Paper" through Google Does
brings up results I've not had any experience ordering paper through the
mail.....'and would rather not anyhow. :-((
See if your city has Aaron brothers, Cheap Pete's, or any inexpensive shop
that sells premade frames. Your chances of finding the size you want will
be much better at these shops than at the office supply stores. Cheap
Pete's has the least expensive simple black frames that I like best for
displaying photos. Similar to the ones you see in museum photo collections.
I use the same frame for all my photos at home and change the photos fairly
often. The frame back comes off easily with four corner clips. So little
wall space, so many pictures to display!

About ink and paper combinations. I know that my old Epson (dye based ink)
printer didn't get along with Kodak glossy photo paper. Different
technology. The Kodak employee who is really very helpful in giving
assistance on this NG advised me to go on the Kodak website, download
Kodak's printing software, and altering some settings in the printer. Still
got very slow drying and bronzing in the dark areas. I mention this
experience, not to dis Kodak products,but to point up the fact that there
are some combinations that work better than others. Costco's Kirkland
Glossy photo paper is great with Canon printers. I don't know what would
work best with HP printers and OEM HP inks.
 
Taliesyn said:
The ONLY paper cutter I will ever own is a mini or larger "exacta-type"
knife. Takes no time to cut and nothing beats it. Blades are dirt cheap at
dollar store. For photos I merely use a known 4x6 as a size guide, cutting
only to the 4 inch width. Trim later. I make precision CD liners and even
cut the right side absolutely flush off 94 page booklets (thick paper)
with death defying precision. Let's see any rotary paper cutter do that.
:-)

You're talking about a handheld utility cutter? Since they're so cheap then
I guess it's worth a try.
Heck, I can barely draw a straight line, but maybe I'll invest also in a
steel ruler.
I just did some looking up for "paper cutters" in the forums and found alot
of dissatisfied folks.
The Costco photo paper handles like it was waterproof, but water can
still damage it. There is more waterproof paper, I have some. Search net
Net with Google. You should be able to come up with something. Okay, I
checked mine it's Compujet by American Ink Jet Corporation. It's called
Waterproof Photo Glossy. They say it's "smudge-proof and scratch-
proof...and small outdoor posters". Can't say it is, I haven't tried
torture testing it. :-)

Thanks Taliesyn. Will do that search again to see if a real storefront in my
city has this. I'm not too keen on ordering paper through the mail.
 
Burt said:
See if your city has Aaron brothers, Cheap Pete's, or any inexpensive shop
that sells premade frames. Your chances of finding the size you want will
be much better at these shops than at the office supply stores. Cheap
Pete's has the least expensive simple black frames that I like best for
displaying photos. Similar to the ones you see in museum photo
collections. I use the same frame for all my photos at home and change the
photos fairly often. The frame back comes off easily with four corner
clips. So little wall space, so many pictures to display!

Aha! No, there aren't any of those in my city. But your suggestion made me
think of Pearl Paint. Yippeeee. I'm all excited now.
It's a 5-6 story art store. I'm looking forward now to going there for the
first time in many years. Their site states how they've got
frame kits and such of all sizes.
About ink and paper combinations. I know that my old Epson (dye based
ink) printer didn't get along with Kodak glossy photo paper. Different
technology. The Kodak employee who is really very helpful in giving
assistance on this NG advised me to go on the Kodak website, download
Kodak's printing software, and altering some settings in the printer.
Still got very slow drying and bronzing in the dark areas. I mention this
experience, not to dis Kodak products,but to point up the fact that there
are some combinations that work better than others. Costco's Kirkland
Glossy photo paper is great with Canon printers. I don't know what would
work best with HP printers and OEM HP inks.

Hmmmm, nah. I'll look into the Kodak items but I'm really turned off by
Costco. Their membership is nothing like BJs thus the reason
I turned mine in after one week.
 
(snip)
Hmmmm, nah. I'll look into the Kodak items but I'm really turned off by
Costco. Their membership is nothing like BJs thus the reason
I turned mine in after one week.
If you have a friend who belongs to costco you might want to try the paper.
300 sheets of 4x6 for about $14 and 125 sheets of 8.5x11 for $19. I don't
know, however, if it is suitable for use in and HP.
 
(snip)
You're talking about a handheld utility cutter? Since they're so cheap
then I guess it's worth a try.
Heck, I can barely draw a straight line, but maybe I'll invest also in a
steel ruler.
I just did some looking up for "paper cutters" in the forums and found
alot of dissatisfied folks.

I use a utility knife and steel straightedge (roofers square is great as it
is a true right angle and is large enough for most photo needs) for large
prints and other large projects such as mat cutting. I have an old
guillotine style paper cutter from my darkroom days that is fine for smaller
prints. Most people swear by rotary cutters. Probably best to go to the
art supply stores for a better quality cutter rather than the inexpensive
ones at the big office supply stores.
 
Hey there, I've made some fantastic looking prints from my older HP 940c
color inkjet many times in the past.

What I would always use is Glossy paper.

Questions:

8 x 10: Why is it so darn hard to find? (or am I looking in the wrong
places?)
8 1/2 x 11 Frames: Why are they also so hard to find?

Easier to print on 8.5 x 11 paper, that way even if your printer isn't
'borderless', you can still get the full size out of it (most printers
can print at least 8 x 10, though it will probably not be 'centered'.
I agree with another poster about using an x-acto knife and a steel
ruler (there are 'aluminum' drafting rulers that are meant to be used
with an x-acto knife, but ten to one you will most likely cut the
ruler itself - they're useless. And I can't find one locally that's
made out of /steel/ that has the same features (is flat against the
paper, has rubber feet that are recessed so they do not prevent the
edge from touching the paper, has a finger guard so it's harder to
take your fingertips off with the knife). Most steel ones like
Westcott have a /big/ corkboard non-skid surface on one side, which
makes it hard to line up against an edge since the ruler itself is not
flush with the paper. I usually flip one of these upside-down to use
it. If you wanted to be fancy, you could get a board and glue two
dowels to it that are narrower than the ruler, and brace the ruler
against it in order to prevent it from slipping at all (I have a heavy
grip, and using a ruler upside-down tends to move it). I've considered
trying to hack together a ruler like the aluminum drafting ones with a
steel edge. Even the most expensive rotary cutters I've worked with
(such as those used in big print shops) cannot cut precisely on a line
the same way a ruler can. A problem with this is that a ruler might
smear or damage a photo - try cutting put a sheet of thin paper on top
of it and leave only a little bit of the edge of the photo you're
trimming exposed. You should try cutting from the outer edge
(unprinted space) but this is not always convenient.
As you might gather, I don't care if I'm using either size, just as long as
I can frame it.

Try looking for frames at an office supply store or trophy store
rather than a framing store. You're more likely to find 'certificate
frames' that will fit a letter sized sheet of paper (if you're in the
US).
On another note: When I've printed on glossy, I've found that the ink can
smear when water is applied to it. Are there better inks these days for the
newer printers? or better papers to avoid this smearing?

With my recent trials of bumper sticker printing (don't ask), I've
found there is nearly NO way to prevent inkjet ink from smearing with
the least bit of dampness. Epson DuraBrite and HP Vivera are supposed
to be 'tougher', but... just try your best not to get them wet.
Sprays, etc, will help if you get a few drops on by accident and wipe
it off quickly, but ink is water soluable, whether pigment or dye. HP
Advance 'regular' paper is supposed to be pretty water resistant. It's
really all a matter of just what you're planning on /doing/ with them.
No print will last underwater. With DuraBrite and good paper, it might
survive a spill.

As for universal photo paper, I've found Kodak really doesn't work too
well (it seems to be engineered towards certain printers, and
generally gets 'sticky' with others), but I do like the Office Depot
Professional Photo Paper (in the black and white box). I've never
tried their Regular or Premium (red and blue boxes) ones. It seems to
have the best compatability over a wide range of printers. Office Max
I've never been thrilled with, but the Staples ones seem to work well
too. Office Depot often puts these on buy-one-get-one sales.
I AM thinking about finally investing in a new printer but apart from all
the many obvious things to keep in mind, the above items are at the
forefront right now.

Thanks in advance for insight, info and whatever else. :-)


---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
You're talking about a handheld utility cutter? Since they're so cheap then
I guess it's worth a try.
Heck, I can barely draw a straight line, but maybe I'll invest also in a
steel ruler.
I just did some looking up for "paper cutters" in the forums and found alot
of dissatisfied folks.

That's right, just a utility knife. I squeezed the sides of the holder
where the blade exits so that there is minimum or almost no side play
(for more precision). And I use an 18" metal ruler, of course. The
plastic ones get massacred in no time! With these precision, razor sharp
utility knives, I can cut a hairs-width of paper off any item I make.
This is more of a high precision, surgeon-type cutting when compared to
the butcher-type guillotine paper trimmers. Suggestion: don't press hard
and try to cut it in one pass. Do several gentle passes as this won't
create a ridge at the edges and you'll stand less of a chance of the
paper slipping and having yourself trimmed (cut) in the process!

(more, bottom)
Thanks Taliesyn. Will do that search again to see if a real storefront in my
city has this. I'm not too keen on ordering paper through the mail.

Too bad, you're losing out on some great stuff not available in the
stores, and at Internet prices.

-Taliesyn
 
Taliesyn said:
Too bad, you're losing out on some great stuff not available in the
stores, and at Internet prices.

-Taliesyn

Hi there again....

Can you tell me how satisfied were you with mail deliveries of paper
products?
I've had some bad luck lately with shipped items. Were paper products
shipped diligently (or rather, carefully) as claimed by the folks sending it
out?
 
WhoTurnedOffTheLights said:
Hi there again....

Can you tell me how satisfied were you with mail deliveries of paper
products?
I've had some bad luck lately with shipped items. Were paper products
shipped diligently (or rather, carefully) as claimed by the folks sending it
out?

Packaging varies from seller to seller. Generally, sellers want to keep
the shipping rates low (most of us look for low rates) so they include
minimum packaging protection. The waterproof glossy I ordered came with
refill ink, so everything was in a solid box. If you order just paper,
like I did recently with an order of CD labels, it was sent in a
protective bubble wrap envelope. Red River Paper Company sends theirs
in protective boxes (or at least they use to last time I used them). So
it varies with the company. You can, of course, ask for better
protection. Of course, you will pay for it accordingly. I'm in Canada
and I really have no fear of ordering paper from out of the country. I
haven't had any bad experiences to speak of. I even ordered a large box
of inkjet cartridges from Australia. No problem. It arrived very fast,
almost like a local delivery.

-Taliesyn
 
You don't mention which type of printer or inks you are currently using,
so it is hard to give you a definitive answer as to improvements.

There are several different inks available. The main ones in the inkjet
market you need to know about are dye colorant versus pigment.

Paper is often critical to if dye inks will be waterproof or not. And
paper type is often critical as to if pigment inks will rub off or
scratch or not.

A number of Epson papers, matte, semi-gloss and gloss, using dye
colorant inks become waterproof once the ink has passed through the
surface layer. These type of papers are referred to as microporous type.

Most pigment colorant inks are waterproof once dye on the majority of
surfaces they are compatible with.

The major problem is use of dye inks on plain papers or on swellable
polymer papers. These papers usually take longer to dry, and remain
vulnerable to moisture and water, as the surface swells when water based
fluids hit it. Most HP inks are designed for this type of paper. The
advantage of it is that it tends to incorporate the ink into the surface
making it much more fade resistant. This is more important with dye
inks, since they tend to fade much more rapidly. The problem is these
papers take longer to dry, fingerprint easily, may scratch easily, and
are not waterproof.

The micropore paper tends to be very nearly dry on leaving the printer,
if often waterproof even with dye inks, but tends to fade more rapidly
with dye inks.

Pigment inks tend to be more archival, usually work best with fine art
or microporous papers, but may have a surface more easily scratched.

Confused yet? ;-)

Art
 
Arthur Entlich said:
You don't mention which type of printer or inks you are currently using,
so it is hard to give you a definitive answer as to improvements.

There are several different inks available. The main ones in the inkjet
market you need to know about are dye colorant versus pigment.

Paper is often critical to if dye inks will be waterproof or not. And
paper type is often critical as to if pigment inks will rub off or scratch
or not.

A number of Epson papers, matte, semi-gloss and gloss, using dye colorant
inks become waterproof once the ink has passed through the surface layer.
These type of papers are referred to as microporous type.

Most pigment colorant inks are waterproof once dye on the majority of
surfaces they are compatible with.

The major problem is use of dye inks on plain papers or on swellable
polymer papers. These papers usually take longer to dry, and remain
vulnerable to moisture and water, as the surface swells when water based
fluids hit it. Most HP inks are designed for this type of paper. The
advantage of it is that it tends to incorporate the ink into the surface
making it much more fade resistant. This is more important with dye inks,
since they tend to fade much more rapidly. The problem is these papers
take longer to dry, fingerprint easily, may scratch easily, and are not
waterproof.

The micropore paper tends to be very nearly dry on leaving the printer, if
often waterproof even with dye inks, but tends to fade more rapidly with
dye inks.

Pigment inks tend to be more archival, usually work best with fine art or
microporous papers, but may have a surface more easily scratched.

Hi Art,

Err, actually I did mention that I was using an HP. I didn't know that I
could've used anything other than
HP ink for their printers, thus the reasoning behind my question.

To be honest, I actually have to rub water with my finger more than a coupla
times to get it smearing.
Confused yet? ;-)

haha, not yet...I think. :-)
 
Burt said:
(snip)

I use a utility knife and steel straightedge (roofers square is great as
it is a true right angle and is large enough for most photo needs) for
large prints and other large projects such as mat cutting. I have an old
guillotine style paper cutter from my darkroom days that is fine for
smaller prints. Most people swear by rotary cutters. Probably best to go
to the art supply stores for a better quality cutter rather than the
inexpensive ones at the big office supply stores.

First I'd like to thank everyone for their input. It's much appreciated.

As for what I'd done? Pearl Paint, that Big Art Store in my area was too big
to handle in one visit for me. Will be returning soon but I must say that
even their steel rulers were high priced.

In the meantime, I got myself a 15" Carl Rotary Trimmer just to test it out.
I can see what folks mean by these items being good for small prints. Yah,
it would be good for that. But anything close to regular paper weight and
size? Forget it. Though I must say with heavier stock which is what I'm
using (about 70 + lb?) it does a much better job. The final cut is off but
methinks it's so miniscule that I MIGHT hold on to it afterall. I've got 2
weeks in which to return it anyhow for a full refund. So I'll test it out
further.

I'm still going to consider using a knife and will visit HomeDepot for what
you've mentioned Burt (roofers square). That sounds like an idea that makes
alot of sense.

Many thanks once again. :-))
 
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