P4C800-e Dlx Running HOT

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jeff Givens
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J

Jeff Givens

....or what seems hot to me.

3.0 Prescott in an Antec Overture case, 2 WD 120G HD's, ATI 9800 pro video.

At idle with the case closed up (BIOS screen displaying temps)
MB/processor = 37/63.

When I open up the case, the MB rises a little and the processor drops a
lot: 39/54.

Now while using the PC, while the case is open it is 40/58 and when closed
up it gets to 39/66.

Processor fan is following the processor temp - as it drops so does the fan
speed.

So why so hot compared to what I am reading others have in similar states?
I even had the case all open with the HD's sitting on top of the PS and it
still was reading 40/60. Inside the house is about 74 (23) right now.

I am going to get a Zalman fan, if anything to quiet things down. I don't
know if it will help the temperatures any.

The processor did not have any thermal paste with it nor did Intel's
instructions make mention of any. There was a small square of material on
the heat sink mating surface but it was relatively dry, almost like an
adhesive.

Is there a problem with these temps?
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
3.0 Prescott in an Antec Overture case, 2 WD 120G HD's, ATI 9800 pro
video.
Click to expand...

3,0E Prescott, ASUS AX800 Pro, 1024 MB RAM, 2 IBM HD's, Win XP

At idle with the case closed up (BIOS screen displaying temps)
Click to expand...
MB/processor = 37/63.
Click to expand...



Idle: (ASUS PCProbe)

MB/processor = 35/50


When I open up the case, the MB rises a little and the processor drops a
Click to expand...
lot: 39/54.
Click to expand...



not tested yet



Now while using the PC, while the case is open it is 40/58 and when closed
Click to expand...
up it gets to 39/66.
Click to expand...



Closed case:

MB/processor = 37/62


So why so hot compared to what I am reading others have in similar states?
Click to expand...
I even had the case all open with the HD's sitting on top of the PS and it
Click to expand...
still was reading 40/60. Inside the house is about 74 (23) right now.

I am going to get a Zalman fan, if anything to quiet things down. I don't
Click to expand...
know if it will help the temperatures any.
Click to expand...
The processor did not have any thermal paste with it nor did Intel's
Click to expand...
instructions make mention of any. There was a small square of material on
Click to expand...
the heat sink mating surface but it was relatively dry, almost like an
Click to expand...
adhesive.
Click to expand...



There is an pad on the lower surface of the cooly.
 
Closed case:

MB/processor = 37/62
Click to expand...

OK, that is the first I've seen of someone running 60+ (got up to 69 here
while working), all posts I see are of some guy wondering if his 45C is
gonna fry something....

Thanks.
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
Sascha said:
3,0E Prescott, ASUS AX800 Pro, 1024 MB RAM, 2 IBM HD's, Win XP



Idle: (ASUS PCProbe)

MB/processor = 35/50



not tested yet



Closed case:

MB/processor = 37/62









There is an pad on the lower surface of the cooly.
Click to expand...

I use one of those very large Swiftech MCX478-V P4-478's in my system
and right now it's at MB/CPU 27C/32C. I've never seen the CPU go over
44C even running games and in an apartment that faces the late afternoon
sun (read HOT!).
 
Jeff Givens said:
...or what seems hot to me.

3.0 Prescott in an Antec Overture case, 2 WD 120G HD's, ATI 9800 pro video.

At idle with the case closed up (BIOS screen displaying temps)
MB/processor = 37/63.

When I open up the case, the MB rises a little and the processor drops a
lot: 39/54.

Now while using the PC, while the case is open it is 40/58 and when closed
up it gets to 39/66.

Processor fan is following the processor temp - as it drops so does the fan
speed.

So why so hot compared to what I am reading others have in similar states?
I even had the case all open with the HD's sitting on top of the PS and it
still was reading 40/60. Inside the house is about 74 (23) right now.

I am going to get a Zalman fan, if anything to quiet things down. I don't
know if it will help the temperatures any.

The processor did not have any thermal paste with it nor did Intel's
instructions make mention of any. There was a small square of material on
the heat sink mating surface but it was relatively dry, almost like an
adhesive.

Is there a problem with these temps?
Click to expand...

I'm no thermal designer, but there seems to be some correspondence
between the volume of a case and how hot it runs. The Overture is
kind of tiny.

In a previous thread, I found an interesting factoid:

CFM = 3.16 x Watts / Delta_T_degrees_F

http://www.chassis-plans.com/cooling_and_noise.html

Your load is perhaps 100W for the processor and 40W for
the video card. An acceptable delta_T for the case is 7C
according to AMD, which is 12.6F.

CFM = 3.16 x 140 / 12.6 = 35CFM bare minimum, more is better.

An Antec 80mm fan is 34CFM, and a 92mm fan is 42CFM. This assumes
they are full speed fans and aren't being throttled. If they are
SmartCool fans, they "thermoregulate", and that means they
trade off higher case temp, for lower noise. If that is the
case, replace them with ordinary 12V full speed fans of 80mm
and 92mm size. The potential CFMs seem to be enough to cool it,
as long as the grillwork and air path don't offer a lot of
resistance to airflow.

(Antec cooling fans)
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=77038

Your results suggest the motherboard sensor benefits from the airflow
pattern when the case is closed. Your CPU HSF seems to be really
starved for cool air.

I don't know if buying a Zalman 7000A would really help or not, if
there isn't enough air flow through the case. The CPU temp will
drop, and the case temp will rise if you add the Zalman 7000A and
don't change anything else. And the Zalman fins might bump into
something, if the case volume is that small. The Zalman needs a
55mm clearance radius measured from the center of the CPU.

As for the thermal interface material on the current HSF, that could
be a phase change material. Personally, I prefer paste, but paste
has to be maintained, as no paste gives good performance for ever.
If you replace the TIM on the HSF with paste, record the case to
room delta, and the CPU to case delta, a couple days after the thing
has been running, as a measure of baseline performance. Use Prime95
as a computing load, so you know the temps under load. A year from
now, test again with Prime95, to see how much worse the CPU to case
delta has become.

With paste, you may find in six months or a year, that a reapplication
is necessary. While some of the other thermal interface materials
don't perform as well as paste, they might stay in place longer.

If I owned your case, I'd be reaching for the tin snips, dremel,
and tools of mass destruction right now :-) Removing the grillwork
over the fans can help with noise, especially if you select some
higher CFM fans to replace what you've got. If you decide to be
creative with some tinwork, remember to vacuum out the case after
you are finished, so any metal debris doesn't short the motherboard.

HTH,
Paul
 
An Antec 80mm fan is 34CFM, and a 92mm fan is 42CFM. This assumes
they are full speed fans and aren't being throttled. If they are
SmartCool fans, they "thermoregulate", and that means they
trade off higher case temp, for lower noise. If that is the
case, replace them with ordinary 12V full speed fans of 80mm
and 92mm size. The potential CFMs seem to be enough to cool it,
as long as the grillwork and air path don't offer a lot of
resistance to airflow.
Click to expand...

The case has an 80 and 92, both running a constant 2000 RPM.

Your results suggest the motherboard sensor benefits from the airflow
pattern when the case is closed. Your CPU HSF seems to be really
starved for cool air.
Click to expand...

Even when all opened up, with hard drives removed from the case, the cpu
has always been well into the 50's. This just doesn't sound right, from
what others are reporting their (varying) systems are.
I don't know if buying a Zalman 7000A would really help or not, if
there isn't enough air flow through the case. The CPU temp will
drop, and the case temp will rise if you add the Zalman 7000A and
don't change anything else. And the Zalman fins might bump into
something, if the case volume is that small. The Zalman needs a
55mm clearance radius measured from the center of the CPU.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt there is an air flow factor to the cpu, witness the large
drop upon case opening. The temp while the case is opened on the cpu is
bothering me though. There is plenty of room for the Zalman and I am hoping
that it will be indeed dumping extra heat into the case but I bet the mb
temp does not increase as much as the cpu drops, or so I hope.
If I owned your case, I'd be reaching for the tin snips, dremel,
and tools of mass destruction right now :-) Removing the grillwork
over the fans can help with noise, especially if you select some
higher CFM fans to replace what you've got. If you decide to be
creative with some tinwork, remember to vacuum out the case after
you are finished, so any metal debris doesn't short the motherboard.
Click to expand...

I've been contemplating what mods can be done but am going to hold off
until I get the new cpu fan. I just can't understand why I am (seemingly)
so high here where others in similar situations, even overclocking, come in
at much lower temps.

Thanks for all the info and advice Paul.
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
Jeff Givens said:
...or what seems hot to me.

3.0 Prescott in an Antec Overture case, 2 WD 120G HD's, ATI 9800 pro video.

At idle with the case closed up (BIOS screen displaying temps)
MB/processor = 37/63.

When I open up the case, the MB rises a little and the processor drops a
lot: 39/54.

Now while using the PC, while the case is open it is 40/58 and when closed
up it gets to 39/66.

Processor fan is following the processor temp - as it drops so does the fan
speed.

So why so hot compared to what I am reading others have in similar states?
I even had the case all open with the HD's sitting on top of the PS and it
still was reading 40/60. Inside the house is about 74 (23) right now.

I am going to get a Zalman fan, if anything to quiet things down. I don't
know if it will help the temperatures any.

The processor did not have any thermal paste with it nor did Intel's
instructions make mention of any. There was a small square of material on
the heat sink mating surface but it was relatively dry, almost like an
adhesive.

Is there a problem with these temps?
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
Click to expand...


I'm running 36/52 here idle with stock HSF, prescott 2.4a
oc to 2.88. Core 1.65v bios setting,but I understand this varies.MBM 5 says
it's 1.47v
 
Jeff Givens said:
The case has an 80 and 92, both running a constant 2000 RPM.



Even when all opened up, with hard drives removed from the case, the cpu
has always been well into the 50's. This just doesn't sound right, from
what others are reporting their (varying) systems are.
Click to expand...
<<snip>>

Something else that occurs to me, is the Intel fan spins at min.
RPMs at 30C case air temp, and spins at max RPMs at 38C case air temp.
If you had a feature like Qfan enabled, it adds on top of the Intel
ramped response, this curve -

http://www.asus.com/mb/qfan.htm

If you disable Qfan, you may find a marked improvement in the
CPU temps. With Qfan enabled, the fan isn't going to ramp until
the CPU temp hits 50C.

That is where the Zalman has the advantage - you can run it
directly off +12V, for maximum cooling. That is how I run mine,
no Qfan and no FanMate to reduce voltage to the fan.

HTH,
Paul
 
If you disable Qfan, you may find a marked improvement in the
CPU temps. With Qfan enabled, the fan isn't going to ramp until
the CPU temp hits 50C.

That is where the Zalman has the advantage - you can run it
directly off +12V, for maximum cooling. That is how I run mine,
no Qfan and no FanMate to reduce voltage to the fan.
Click to expand...

Yeah, QFAN is off (always has been). Getting some usage data now and it
seems 37/64 to 40/68 are typical operating temps, everything all sealed up
nice. I was rooting around in my office, I know I have some fans that mount
in an adapter slot, can't find them though.

Anyway, I suspect that after the Zalman I will be exploring some alternate
air flow schemes. But at least it will be quiet.


_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
Prescott cpu's run hot. I have a 3.4 Northwood and at idle run as 38 deg C.
Playing Doom 3 it rises to 52 deg C.That pad you refer to on the heat sink
is a thermal pad.

Stop worrying about the temp and use your PC for whatever reason you bought
it for.

Monty
..
 
Jeff Givens said:
...or what seems hot to me.

3.0 Prescott in an Antec Overture case, 2 WD 120G HD's, ATI 9800 pro video.

At idle with the case closed up (BIOS screen displaying temps)
MB/processor = 37/63.

When I open up the case, the MB rises a little and the processor drops a
lot: 39/54.
Click to expand...

These temps are very high... Don't know about damage, but definately
detrimental to the life expectancy of the parts. What is the room
temperature like?

One thing to note with CPU/Case temps. If you have an adequate CPU cooler
then the CPU will be close the the temperature of the case at idle. The
better the cooler the longer these temps stay close when under load.

The better ventilation that you have in your case, the lower the case temp
will be. Your goal is to keep the case the CPU temps as close as possible
with a good CPU sink and also to ventilate the case well enough to keep the
temps down.

....you have neither here...

The Overture case is definately NOT designed to run cool. It lacks cooling
fans and generally does not move the air well through the case. Make sure
you mount as many fans in the case as possible and that they suck air from
the front/sides and expel air from the rear/top.

1. CPU is just too hot. Sounds like the heatsink isn't mounted properly. The
black pad on the OEM heatsink should work OK for one use. If you pull the
heatsink off, clean it and use some compound (about the size of a piece of
rice) spread evenly over the CPU with a credit card or small piece of
cardboard.

2. Case/CPU temps are too far apart. You need more cool air moving through
that case. To test this theory, pull the cover and boot the machine. Measure
temps for a while. Now point a room/window fan at the computer and see how
far the temps go down. If they don't go down much there are bigger problems.

3. How warm do your HDD's get? Pull the power cable from them and boot into
the CMOS settings screen and see what kind of case temps you get with the
case closed. If you have a high end video card, try swapping it for
something wimpy to see if the case temps are affected.

I almost chose the Overture for my machine, but finally decided against it
based on cooling properties. I think that the Antec P160 is the best looking
case of the bunch and the Sonata is an OK but cheaply built case. Decided to
just stick with my old case and update the PSU.
 
I'm running 36/52 here idle with stock HSF, prescott 2.4a
oc to 2.88. Core 1.65v bios setting,but I understand this varies.MBM 5 says
it's 1.47v
Click to expand...

Right now, from MBM5, 30'C CPU temp and 32'C case temp.

- 2.6Ghz P4 @3.17 and 1.6volts(auto setting in BIOS) (244Mhz clock)
- CPU fan is a Zalman 7000AlCu at 1990 rpm
- Vantec stealth case fan in rear blowing out at 2100 rpm
- PSU fan at 2250rpm
- Memory is 2x256meg DDR533 OCZ @ 1:1, 2.5-4-4-7
- ATI Radeon 9600XT @ 80Mhz
- Win XP Pro SP1

Case temp started at 25'C and CPU at 27'C

I'd overclock more, but I don't know where to start. CPU, DDR and AGP
voltages currently on AUTO and PC doesn't run Prime 95 without errors if I
raise the clock.
 
Noozer said:
Right now, from MBM5, 30'C CPU temp and 32'C case temp.

- 2.6Ghz P4 @3.17 and 1.6volts(auto setting in BIOS) (244Mhz clock)
- CPU fan is a Zalman 7000AlCu at 1990 rpm
- Vantec stealth case fan in rear blowing out at 2100 rpm
- PSU fan at 2250rpm
- Memory is 2x256meg DDR533 OCZ @ 1:1, 2.5-4-4-7
- ATI Radeon 9600XT @ 80Mhz
- Win XP Pro SP1

Case temp started at 25'C and CPU at 27'C

I'd overclock more, but I don't know where to start. CPU, DDR and AGP
voltages currently on AUTO and PC doesn't run Prime 95 without errors if I
raise the clock.
Click to expand...

....almost forgot... This is a northwood running on a P4C800-E Dlx.

Anyone wanna buy a PC?
 
Thanks for all the thoughts Noozer.

Something that has hit me of real interest:
Case temp started at 25'C and CPU at 27'C
Click to expand...

I just did some testing. Came in this morning with the case all opened up
and everything at ambient, appx. 73 F. How long does it take to get into
the BIOS setup? 15-20 sec. maybe? I went into BIOS as quick as possible and
right into hardware monitor and the mb/cpu readings were 25/45. 45! Less
than 30 seconds into a cold system start my cpu temp is reporting as high
(if not higher) than what others are reporting as full load temps, some
even overclocking!!!!

Now this may be a little bizarre, but being an instrumentation guy I have
to ask, has anyone heard of the thermocouple/rtd on-die failing? How about
the ADC on the Asus board?

OK, doing some more checks. Sitting nice and quiet at the BIOS hardware
monitor screen, for about an hour, case all opened up and using an older
ATI AIW card (Radeon), I am getting 37/53.

Now I replace with the new ATI AIW 9800 and let sit an hour, get 39/55.

I feel around with my hand and things do not feel that hot at all. The
heatsink on Northbridge is just a little warm, the cooling fins on the
Zalman are barely warm, if that. Air flow from the Zalman, where it exits
at the bottom near the mb is downright cool.

OK, I take a temp probe and place it inside the fins on Northbridge. I get
39. I place it under the cooling fins of the Zalman and get 35. I try all
kinds of different places under the cpu cooler and get the same temp. On
the other side of the ATI card near its processor I get 39.

Now a final test. I took a 14" fan and on high ran it right into the case.
Getting TONS of air through there. Case temp dropped to 26, cpu temp BARELY
moved, down to 52. Fan = 26/52.

I am now very very suspicious of cpu reporting temp of this box. Can anyone
else confirm, preferably on a Prescott, the startup temp of the cpu
(assuming an ambient start and immediate entry into the BIOS hardware
monitor screen? Noozer has given an interesting data point, 27, but this
is a Northwood. However the point is intriguing.
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
Jeff Givens said:
Thanks for all the thoughts Noozer.

Something that has hit me of real interest:


I just did some testing. Came in this morning with the case all opened up
and everything at ambient, appx. 73 F. How long does it take to get into
the BIOS setup? 15-20 sec. maybe? I went into BIOS as quick as possible and
right into hardware monitor and the mb/cpu readings were 25/45. 45! Less
than 30 seconds into a cold system start my cpu temp is reporting as high
(if not higher) than what others are reporting as full load temps, some
even overclocking!!!!

Now this may be a little bizarre, but being an instrumentation guy I have
to ask, has anyone heard of the thermocouple/rtd on-die failing? How about
the ADC on the Asus board?

OK, doing some more checks. Sitting nice and quiet at the BIOS hardware
monitor screen, for about an hour, case all opened up and using an older
ATI AIW card (Radeon), I am getting 37/53.

Now I replace with the new ATI AIW 9800 and let sit an hour, get 39/55.

I feel around with my hand and things do not feel that hot at all. The
heatsink on Northbridge is just a little warm, the cooling fins on the
Zalman are barely warm, if that. Air flow from the Zalman, where it exits
at the bottom near the mb is downright cool.

OK, I take a temp probe and place it inside the fins on Northbridge. I get
39. I place it under the cooling fins of the Zalman and get 35. I try all
kinds of different places under the cpu cooler and get the same temp. On
the other side of the ATI card near its processor I get 39.

Now a final test. I took a 14" fan and on high ran it right into the case.
Getting TONS of air through there. Case temp dropped to 26, cpu temp BARELY
moved, down to 52. Fan = 26/52.

I am now very very suspicious of cpu reporting temp of this box. Can anyone
else confirm, preferably on a Prescott, the startup temp of the cpu
(assuming an ambient start and immediate entry into the BIOS hardware
monitor screen? Noozer has given an interesting data point, 27, but this
is a Northwood. However the point is intriguing.
Click to expand...
I'd be more suspicious that the heatsink is not in proper contact with the
CPU. Having the processor heatsink cooler than the one on the Northbridge,
and the CPU temperature not changing significantly, is a 'classic' symptom
of a processor that is not making good thermal contact with the heatsink
(again 'classics' are leaving the plastic slip on top of the heatsink
compound, having something that stops the heatsink sitting down properly,
etc. etc.).
I'd leave the processor in place, and dismantle the machine, so that the
motherboard comes out. Then look across the motherboard at the heatsink
assembly. Is it parallel with the processor?. Does it look to be touching
properly?. Is anthing else touching the fan?.

Best Wishes
 
I'd be more suspicious that the heatsink is not in proper contact with the
CPU. Having the processor heatsink cooler than the one on the Northbridge,
and the CPU temperature not changing significantly, is a 'classic' symptom
of a processor that is not making good thermal contact with the heatsink
(again 'classics' are leaving the plastic slip on top of the heatsink
compound, having something that stops the heatsink sitting down properly,
etc. etc.).
Click to expand...

Roger,

This is the second heat sink. First one was the stock Intel one and I've
since added a Zalman. When I removed the Intel one the thermal compound
appeared to be evenly distributed with no apparent visual problems.

Care was taken to ensure a good mate when the Zalman was installed, not
that is ever a guarantee of anything though.

Running under a little load now and getting 43/58 readings with my hand
probe giving 47 on the Northbridge and 39 at near the cpu base. In the
cooling fins of the Zalman itself I am getting 34.
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
I have that same ASUS board with a 3.2E prescott (5% overclocked, but
temps not that much different with no OC'ing) and my idle CPU temp is
about 42C and load around 49C. The motherboard temp is around 31C,
typicaly 11 degrees less then idle temp. The motherboard temps don't
change much at load; maybe a slight increase. These temps all depend on
ambient temp, however I don't have a good measure of the ambient for you
other then a temp sensor inside my case but right in front of the intake
fan that reads about 2 degrees less then the motherboard temperature so
about 29C. I'm currenlty using a thermalright XP120 and a 120mm
(~100CFM) fan to cool the cpu. I've used in the past a Zalman all
copper which ran a couple degrees hotter at idle but didn't handle the
load temps (11 to 13 degress higher under load with Zalman so I was
hitting as high as 55C) as well as the XP120. XP120 seems to keep load
temps at or under 50C most of the time.

These temps are measured using the ASUS probe 2, and they seem to match
the readings I get from another tool called Everest Home Edition.

My Bios is version 1016 (I think).

Hope this helps in some way.
 
about 42C and load around 49C. The motherboard temp is around 31C,
typicaly 11 degrees less then idle temp. The motherboard temps don't
change much at load; maybe a slight increase. These temps all depend on
[...]

(~100CFM) fan to cool the cpu. I've used in the past a Zalman all
copper which ran a couple degrees hotter at idle but didn't handle the
load temps (11 to 13 degress higher under load with Zalman so I was
hitting as high as 55C) as well as the XP120. XP120 seems to keep load
temps at or under 50C most of the time.
Click to expand...

I have hit as high as 70 with both the stock heatsink and the Zalman, under
just moderate usage. There is something obviously very wrong and I have
written to both Asus and Intel. I don't know what to expect from either but
I am leaning towards a faulty sensor or ADC. It sure smacks of poor
heatsink interface but, with two different ones, I don't think so. Never
say never though.
_________________________________________________________________
JG... Jeff Givens
mailto:[email protected]

"My hovercraft is full of eels."
 
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