p2b-d, coppermine, slockets -- upgrading question

  • Thread starter Thread starter geos
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G

geos

hi everyone,

I am considering an upgrade of my two processors PIII450@600 running on
Asus P2B-D motherboard rev 1.06 D03. I was thinking about two PIII
Coppermine processors, and I have a few questions.

1) Is P2B-D motherboard capable of running two FCPGA Coppermine PIII
processors in dual mode?

2) If it is, what slocket adapters are known to work in that mode?

3) Is it possible to recognize if particular non-brand slocket adapter
(or other than Asus s370-dl) is suitable for that purpose? What
information should I look for on a slocket adapter when buying one via
some auction portals? there are lots of different brands and the items
aren't well described often.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and suggestions,
thanks,
geos
 
geos said:
hi everyone,

I am considering an upgrade of my two processors PIII450@600 running on
Asus P2B-D motherboard rev 1.06 D03. I was thinking about two PIII
Coppermine processors, and I have a few questions.

1) Is P2B-D motherboard capable of running two FCPGA Coppermine PIII
processors in dual mode?

2) If it is, what slocket adapters are known to work in that mode?

3) Is it possible to recognize if particular non-brand slocket adapter
(or other than Asus s370-dl) is suitable for that purpose? What
information should I look for on a slocket adapter when buying one via
some auction portals? there are lots of different brands and the items
aren't well described often.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and suggestions,
thanks,
geos
Click to expand...

Try looking here. The Upgradeware Slot-T is a pretty cheap
slocket. I got one some time ago from Bytewize.

http://www.bytewizecomputers.com/products/7/9/104/1048

Have a look at the articles here. The author of this site
is "P2B", a regular contributor here.

http://tipperlinne.com/p2bmod

http://tipperlinne.com/slot-t.htm

I wonder if this is the one to get ? I think this is the
fastest P3-S Tualatin made. Suitable for duallies.

http://www.starmicro.net/detail.aspx?ID=464
http://processorfinder.intel.com/scripts/details.asp?sSpec=SL6BY
http://processorfinder.intel.com/scripts/details.asp?sSpec=SL657 (older)

Have fun,
Paul
 
Paul said:
Try looking here. The Upgradeware Slot-T is a pretty cheap
slocket. I got one some time ago from Bytewize.

http://www.bytewizecomputers.com/products/7/9/104/1048

Have a look at the articles here. The author of this site
is "P2B", a regular contributor here.

http://tipperlinne.com/p2bmod

http://tipperlinne.com/slot-t.htm

I wonder if this is the one to get ? I think this is the
fastest P3-S Tualatin made. Suitable for duallies.

http://www.starmicro.net/detail.aspx?ID=464
http://processorfinder.intel.com/scripts/details.asp?sSpec=SL6BY
http://processorfinder.intel.com/scripts/details.asp?sSpec=SL657 (older)
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul. Unfortunately, I consider a little less expensive upgrade
:) to two PIII Coppermine FCPGA processors. I've read somewhere on the
Internet that these are not dual capable. I cannot find that article
now, and would like to have this info confirmed if true.

thanks for the response,
geos
 
geos said:
Thanks Paul. Unfortunately, I consider a little less expensive upgrade
:) to two PIII Coppermine FCPGA processors. I've read somewhere on the
Internet that these are not dual capable. I cannot find that article
now, and would like to have this info confirmed if true.

thanks for the response,
geos
Click to expand...

I picked the P3-S, specifically because there are three nice
Tualatin processors that do support dual. The Tualatin P3's have
512KB cache and work as duals, if you use the right slocket. The
rest of the Tualatin processors have 256KB. The 1.4GHz/FSB133/512KB
is the fastest P3-S processor available. There are also some
1.26/FSB133/512KB models still for sale.

The spec update document 244453 (last two digits are the current
version, which is 53 in this case), has info on "dualism". If
you look at page 10, you can see three "cD0" stepping processors.
They are Coppermine processors. You can also see some "tA1"
and "tB1" stepping processors. They are Tualatin P3. If a processor
is listed in this table, it is dual ready. (The first letter of
the stepping is c=coppermine and t=tualatin.) Certainly there
could be other processors which are dual capable (having the
Pentium name), but if I was shopping, I would be using this
list as evidence.

http://download.intel.com/design/PentiumIII/specupdt/24445353.pdf

To figure out what product to use, then you go to
processorfinder.intel.com, bring up the Pentium 3 list, and then
correlate the speed and stepping info from 244453, with the
SSPEC numbers from the Pentium list. You can then ask the seller
what the SSPEC is listed on the box, and have a way of looking
up the info for the processor, and then check the 244453 doc
for evidence of "duality". For example, the fastest processor
would be the SL6BY. In a Coppermine at 1GHz, dual ready examples
would be the SL5FQ, SL5DV, SL52R, SL5B3. At least they match the
cD0 stepping.

It would have been really nice if Intel had put dual info, right
on the SSPEC pages, but that would be too much to ask.

HTH,
Paul
 
geos said:
Thanks Paul. Unfortunately, I consider a little less expensive upgrade
:) to two PIII Coppermine FCPGA processors. I've read somewhere on the
Internet that these are not dual capable. I cannot find that article
now, and would like to have this info confirmed if true.
Click to expand...

That's incorrect - all PIII processors are dual-capable, *except* the
256K Tualatins.

I recommend you choose 133Mhz FSB processors as memory bandwidth becomes
the bottleneck on 440BX boards running faster processors - especially
duallies - and they tend to be cheaper used than the 100Mhz models.
However, note that the 133Mhz FSB setting on your board overclocks the
PCI bus to 44.3Mhz, which usually causes problems - but since you are
already running your 450s @ 600 I assume you must have very tolerant PCI
cards, if any, along with a video card that doesn't mind the 89Mhz AGP
clock. The fix to enable 133Mhz FSB/33Mhz PCI is documented on my site,
to which Paul kindly referred you, but there's nothing to be done about
the AGP overclock as it's a chipset limitation.

The Asus S370-DL was considered the ideal slot adapter for dual
Coppermines, however they are hard to find now. The Upgradeware Slot-T
is just as good, is readily available, and supports both Coppermines and
Tualatins - however it requires a minor modification for dual operation
on your board. This mod is also documented on my site. AFAIK these are
the *only* slot adapter models capable of reliable dual operation on the
P2B-D/DS @ 133Mhz FSB.

You might also take a look at my benchmarks page for an indication of
the relative performance increase you can expect. Personally, I would
not invest in a Coppermine upgrade as the Tualatins give you much better
bang per buck. I run dual 1.4Ghz PIII-S Tualatins @ 1470 on my P2B-DS
and remain very satisfied with performance - I don't anticipate
replacing this system anytime soon :-)

P2B

http://tipperlinne.com/p2bmod
 
P2B said:
That's incorrect - all PIII processors are dual-capable, *except* the
256K Tualatins.

I recommend you choose 133Mhz FSB processors as memory bandwidth becomes
the bottleneck on 440BX boards running faster processors - especially
duallies - and they tend to be cheaper used than the 100Mhz models.
However, note that the 133Mhz FSB setting on your board overclocks the
PCI bus to 44.3Mhz, which usually causes problems - but since you are
already running your 450s @ 600 I assume you must have very tolerant PCI
cards, if any, along with a video card that doesn't mind the 89Mhz AGP
clock. The fix to enable 133Mhz FSB/33Mhz PCI is documented on my site,
to which Paul kindly referred you, but there's nothing to be done about
the AGP overclock as it's a chipset limitation.
Click to expand...

well, I am one of those lucky ones who have already modded P2B-D using
instruction from your page :) my PCI cards wouldn't stand such
overclockability without this.
The Asus S370-DL was considered the ideal slot adapter for dual
Coppermines, however they are hard to find now. The Upgradeware Slot-T
is just as good, is readily available, and supports both Coppermines and
Tualatins - however it requires a minor modification for dual operation
on your board. This mod is also documented on my site. AFAIK these are
the *only* slot adapter models capable of reliable dual operation on the
P2B-D/DS @ 133Mhz FSB.
Click to expand...

indeed, S370-DL hard to find, and much higher price if found. thanks to
gb I have read that "MSI 6905 ver. 2.3 [works] (not sure how tall it is,
dual ppga capable, not sure about dual fcpga), ver. 2.0 is probably ok
too".

do you know by experience if these slockets are good for dual P2B-D
motherboard? I have rev. 2.1 of them quite cheap but there are also 2.0
and 2.3 too.
You might also take a look at my benchmarks page for an indication of
the relative performance increase you can expect. Personally, I would
not invest in a Coppermine upgrade as the Tualatins give you much better
bang per buck. I run dual 1.4Ghz PIII-S Tualatins @ 1470 on my P2B-DS
and remain very satisfied with performance - I don't anticipate
replacing this system anytime soon :-)
Click to expand...

well, I am impressed by your work but will consider that dual Tualatin
configuration as the next upgrading stage :-)

thanks,
geos
 
geos wrote:

[snip]
indeed, S370-DL hard to find, and much higher price if found. thanks to
gb I have read that "MSI 6905 ver. 2.3 [works] (not sure how tall it is,
dual ppga capable, not sure about dual fcpga), ver. 2.0 is probably ok
too".

do you know by experience if these slockets are good for dual P2B-D
motherboard? I have rev. 2.1 of them quite cheap but there are also 2.0
and 2.3 too.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I have no direct experience with any version of the MSI 6905, nor
do I recall anyone having reported using them successfully for dual
Coppermines on the P2B-D.

P2B
 
geos schrieb:

[MSI 6905 Master]
do you know by experience if these slockets are good for dual P2B-D
motherboard? I have rev. 2.1 of them quite cheap but there are also 2.0
and 2.3 too.
Click to expand...

Those with 4-pin J3 work out of the box, the more common ones with 3-pin
J3 (such as mine) need to be modified. There was a thread on 2cpu.com on
this with a pic of the (rather simple) mod years ago, in the for sale
forum. *search* Hmm, the server seems to be in slow as molasses mode
right now. Anyway, it worked for me (found someone to mod my 2.3s, my
soldering skills suck). Running two 667EBs as 500Es undervolted at 1.40
V (something newer than cA2 stepping procs would probably have allowed
lower core voltages down to 1.30 V). Ah, I found an old posting of mine.
Connect socket pin N33 (yes, a "reserved" pin) to pin 3 of J3 via a
short insulated wire on the back of the adapter, jumper J3 to 1-2.

Stephan
 
Stephan said:
geos schrieb:

[MSI 6905 Master]
do you know by experience if these slockets are good for dual P2B-D
motherboard? I have rev. 2.1 of them quite cheap but there are also 2.0
and 2.3 too.
Click to expand...


Those with 4-pin J3 work out of the box, the more common ones with 3-pin
J3 (such as mine) need to be modified. There was a thread on 2cpu.com on
this with a pic of the (rather simple) mod years ago, in the for sale
forum. *search* Hmm, the server seems to be in slow as molasses mode
right now. Anyway, it worked for me (found someone to mod my 2.3s, my
soldering skills suck). Running two 667EBs as 500Es undervolted at 1.40
V (something newer than cA2 stepping procs would probably have allowed
lower core voltages down to 1.30 V). Ah, I found an old posting of mine.
Connect socket pin N33 (yes, a "reserved" pin) to pin 3 of J3 via a
short insulated wire on the back of the adapter, jumper J3 to 1-2.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

N33 is the 'alternate' BR1# (SMP bus request) pin on the CPU - X2 is the
documented BR1#. Most slot adapters use X2 (e.g S370-DL). The Slot-T
also uses X2 out of the box, but dual processors on the P2B-D/DS don't
work until you change it to N33. The PL-P3/SMP has an X2/N33 jumper, and
it works *either way* on the P2B-D/DS!

I've never figured out why :-(

Did you ever run your 667EBs at rated speed on the MSIs?

I ask because the SMP bus request signals seem to be very sensitive to
trace length, particularly at higher FSB speeds. I learned this the
first time I modified Slot-1 Celerons for dual operation - they were
reliable at 66Mhz FSB, but one processor kept dropping out at 100Mhz.
After rewiring the processors to remove about 15mm from the BR1# signal
path, they ran reliably for years at 112Mhz FSB.

The PL-iP3/T is an example of an adapter which can run dual processors
on the P2B-D/DS at 66Mhz FSB, but becomes unstable at 100Mhz. I once cut
traces and soldered wires on a pair to shorten the BR1# signal path,
which improved them considerably, but they never worked reliably at
133Mhz FSB.

P2B
 
P2B said:
Stephan said:
geos schrieb:

[MSI 6905 Master]
do you know by experience if these slockets are good for dual P2B-D
motherboard? I have rev. 2.1 of them quite cheap but there are also 2.0
and 2.3 too.
Click to expand...

Those with 4-pin J3 work out of the box, the more common ones with 3-pin
J3 (such as mine) need to be modified. There was a thread on 2cpu.com on [snip]
Connect socket pin N33 (yes, a "reserved" pin) to pin 3 of J3 via a
short insulated wire on the back of the adapter, jumper J3 to 1-2.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

N33 is the 'alternate' BR1# (SMP bus request) pin on the CPU - X2 is the
documented BR1#. Most slot adapters use X2 (e.g S370-DL). The Slot-T
also uses X2 out of the box, but dual processors on the P2B-D/DS don't
work until you change it to N33. The PL-P3/SMP has an X2/N33 jumper, and
it works *either way* on the P2B-D/DS!
Click to expand...

That sure is weird.
I've never figured out why :-(
Click to expand...

Probably one would need some internal docs to find that out. Maybe
there's another pin telling the processor that it's allowed to run dual?
Did you ever run your 667EBs at rated speed on the MSIs?
Click to expand...

No, never - I have all 4 memory slots filled, part of the memory still
is PC100 stuff and my P2B-D doesn't have the 4th FSB jumper added.
However, while one single processor ran happily at 1.30 V core, I had to
increase the voltage to 1.40 V to get both procs to run at full speed.
Maybe that is related.

Stephan
 
Stephan said:
P2B schrieb:

Stephan said:
geos schrieb:

[MSI 6905 Master]


do you know by experience if these slockets are good for dual P2B-D
motherboard? I have rev. 2.1 of them quite cheap but there are also 2.0
and 2.3 too.

Those with 4-pin J3 work out of the box, the more common ones with 3-pin
J3 (such as mine) need to be modified. There was a thread on 2cpu.com on
Click to expand...
[snip]
Connect socket pin N33 (yes, a "reserved" pin) to pin 3 of J3 via a
short insulated wire on the back of the adapter, jumper J3 to 1-2.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

N33 is the 'alternate' BR1# (SMP bus request) pin on the CPU - X2 is the
documented BR1#. Most slot adapters use X2 (e.g S370-DL). The Slot-T
also uses X2 out of the box, but dual processors on the P2B-D/DS don't
work until you change it to N33. The PL-P3/SMP has an X2/N33 jumper, and
it works *either way* on the P2B-D/DS!
Click to expand...


That sure is weird.

I've never figured out why :-(
Click to expand...


Probably one would need some internal docs to find that out. Maybe
there's another pin telling the processor that it's allowed to run dual?
Click to expand...

Seems unlikely - Intel likes their processors to make decisions like
that internally, much to the chagrin of us hardware hackers :-)
No, never - I have all 4 memory slots filled, part of the memory still
is PC100 stuff and my P2B-D doesn't have the 4th FSB jumper added.
However, while one single processor ran happily at 1.30 V core, I had to
increase the voltage to 1.40 V to get both procs to run at full speed.
Maybe that is related.
Click to expand...

If you look at the output of a HIP6019 on an oscilloscope while it's
trying to run at 1.3V, the problem is fairly obvious: serious ripple.
The HIP6004 is quite a bit better, which probably explains why you can
run one processor at 1.3v - but it may not work if you move it to the
other slot.

I've got one board that will run a pair of P3-S at 1.35v, but IME 1.4v
is the lower limit on most P2B-D/DS boards.

P2B
 
thanks gb! a lot of useful stuff there too.

cheers,
geos
Click to expand...

I checked it out and I was surprised the powerleap kits are still so
expensive. I think they've gone up. Only one worth considering is the
100mhz tuly celeron and that's no great deal. I for one would much
rather pay more for an athlon motherboard, ram stick, and an amd
processor. My bx board is seven years old in two months.

Heck, considering all the stuff you get on a motherboard these days ;)
 
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