Optical Drive: IDE Secondary Master vs Slave

[Bob]

When I built this computer I put in 3 removable hard drive bays and 1
NEC 3540 optical drive.

I put the optical drive as IDE Secondary Slave, mainly because it
would only fit in the bottom bay because of the mainboard getting in
the way - so I cabled it as Secondary Slave for convenience.

Most of the time the only HD is the Primary Master. Sometimes the
optical drive is not be recognized by the BIOS, especially when I
inserted a CD during the POST operation (I set the BIOS to give a full
POST).

I jumpered it as Slave to make sure the BIOS would see it. But that
did not help. The Secondary Master is unpopulated.

Now I have it in the Secondary Master position and it appears that it
is always recognized no matter what I do.

In the past optical drives were fussy and needed to be the Secondary
Master or they would not work at all. It would appear that the new
drives do work if you don't do anything to them but they are still
somewhat fussy.

Is it still a hard and fast rule to make the optical drive the
Secondary Master?

 

[Grinder]

When I built this computer I put in 3 removable hard drive bays and 1
NEC 3540 optical drive.

I put the optical drive as IDE Secondary Slave, mainly because it
would only fit in the bottom bay because of the mainboard getting in
the way - so I cabled it as Secondary Slave for convenience.

Most of the time the only HD is the Primary Master. Sometimes the
optical drive is not be recognized by the BIOS, especially when I
inserted a CD during the POST operation (I set the BIOS to give a full
POST).

I jumpered it as Slave to make sure the BIOS would see it. But that
did not help. The Secondary Master is unpopulated.

Now I have it in the Secondary Master position and it appears that it
is always recognized no matter what I do.

In the past optical drives were fussy and needed to be the Secondary
Master or they would not work at all. It would appear that the new
drives do work if you don't do anything to them but they are still
somewhat fussy.

Is it still a hard and fast rule to make the optical drive the
Secondary Master?

It is my, perhaps uninformed, opinion that for a given controller, you
should not have a slaved device, without a master. Some hard drives
have a special "single" jumper setting, but every optical drive I've
seen would be jumpered as a master. (Or possibly cable select if you
have "selecting" cables. In that case, you should attach the single
optical drive to the master plug.)

 

[Alceryes]

When I built this computer I put in 3 removable hard drive bays and 1
NEC 3540 optical drive.

I put the optical drive as IDE Secondary Slave, mainly because it
would only fit in the bottom bay because of the mainboard getting in
the way - so I cabled it as Secondary Slave for convenience.

Most of the time the only HD is the Primary Master. Sometimes the
optical drive is not be recognized by the BIOS, especially when I
inserted a CD during the POST operation (I set the BIOS to give a full
POST).

I jumpered it as Slave to make sure the BIOS would see it. But that
did not help. The Secondary Master is unpopulated.

Now I have it in the Secondary Master position and it appears that it
is always recognized no matter what I do.

In the past optical drives were fussy and needed to be the Secondary
Master or they would not work at all. It would appear that the new
drives do work if you don't do anything to them but they are still
somewhat fussy.

Is it still a hard and fast rule to make the optical drive the
Secondary Master?

The cable select setting would be your best option here. Be sure you jumper
your Optical AND any HD you put in the bay as cable select. Also, some Bios'
are flaky when it comes to removable HD's when something else is chained as
slave (or as CS but connected to the middle of the IDE cable) so see if you
can configure it (might need to pick up a longer IDE cable) so that the
Optical is at the end of the cable and the removable HD bay is on the middle
connector and both devices are set to cable select, then you shouldn't have
any problems.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

It is my, perhaps uninformed, opinion that for a given controller,
you should not have a slaved device, without a master....

That may be controller-specific, but in my PC, a Dell Dimension
with and a motherboard controller and a SIIG PCI card controller,
the machine can boot from a lone HD jumpered as Slave. I do
this routinely each time I complete the cloning of the primary HD
as a backup and then subsequently boot the clone for the first
time with the "parent" OS invisible to it.

There is really no role difference between Master and Slave -
they are just flags to the controller so the controller can tell the
two devices apart when they're on the same channel (i.e.
same cable). If the two settings had been named Maude and
Shirley, a generation of newbies would have avoided confusion
about the significance of those settings.

The only other significance of Master/Slave is attributed by some
BIOSes, maybe *most* BIOSes, by defaulting their HD boot order
to [ch.0 Master], [ch. 0 Slave], [ch. 1 Master], [ch. 1 Slave], in that
order. Of course, this boot order (sometimes called "boot sequence")
lasts only until manually reset by the user via keyboard commands
to the BIOS.

What may have led to the "no Slave without a Master" superstition
is the rule to avoid signal reflections within the cable - "no device
at the intermediary connector without a device at the end connector".
Since an unoccupied end connector presents an unterminated
line (i.e. infinite impedance) which causes signal reflections,
the length of cable between the two connectors can present just
enough reflected signal delaty to confuse the device at the inter-
mediate connector. (The specification that this length of cable be
between 5- and 6-inches long is probably an attempt to minimize
this effect.) The rule therefore specifies that a lone device be put
at the end connector - where it would, if Cable Select is used, take
on the Master setting. Otherwise, the device at the end connector
could be jumpered as Slave with no bad results.

As for the necessity of an optical device to be set as Master, I can't
imagine why that should be. If it's controlled by an IDE controller,
IDE specs apply, and I'm unaware of anything in those specs which
are specific to optical devices.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Bob]

As for the necessity of an optical device to be set as Master, I can't
imagine why that should be. If it's controlled by an IDE controller,
IDE specs apply, and I'm unaware of anything in those specs which
are specific to optical devices.

I once had a Mitsui CD-RW and I could not get it to work as slave no
matter what I tried. I wrote tech support and they replied that the
unit MUST be a master.

The drive was crap to begin with but I did manage to get it to work as
master. But then I could not use anything as slave on that channel.
When I asked tech support, they replied that not only must the unit be
a master, it must be the only unit on the channel.

The optics were loose inside and rattled when shaken gently. It also
made weird whistling sounds when it first powered up, like it was
making a pass at you. Just what I needed - a gay CD drive.

I was so happy when I finally got rid of that piece of shit that I
celebrated by taking an large hammer to it.

 

[Bob]

The cable select setting would be your best option here. Be sure you jumper
your Optical AND any HD you put in the bay as cable select.

I tried that but unfortunately the removable bay I have connected to
the same IDE channel is for older HDs that do not support CS. So I had
to jumper the HDs as master and the CD-RW as slave.

Now that I have the roles reversed, I have not had any problems when
the unit comes on line. It seems to work more reliably as master,
especially when there is nothing else on the channel, which is most of
the time.

While I have your attention, I have another problem with that NEC 3540
drive, even when it is master. Some software I have reboots the
computer after partially installing itself, and then prompts for the
CD when it gets further along. I click the button, but the unit won't
respond. I have never had that problem with CD-RW units before.

Any ideas why the NEC 3540 seems to die after a reboot?

 

[Alceryes]

I tried that but unfortunately the removable bay I have connected to
the same IDE channel is for older HDs that do not support CS. So I had
to jumper the HDs as master and the CD-RW as slave.

Now that I have the roles reversed, I have not had any problems when
the unit comes on line. It seems to work more reliably as master,
especially when there is nothing else on the channel, which is most of
the time.

While I have your attention, I have another problem with that NEC 3540
drive, even when it is master. Some software I have reboots the
computer after partially installing itself, and then prompts for the
CD when it gets further along. I click the button, but the unit won't
respond. I have never had that problem with CD-RW units before.

Any ideas why the NEC 3540 seems to die after a reboot?

Is this something that happens frequently or only with one particular piece
of software? Is this a Windows XP system? Is there some burning software
that might be 'locking' the drive?

 

[kony]

I tried that but unfortunately the removable bay I have connected to
the same IDE channel is for older HDs that do not support CS. So I had
to jumper the HDs as master and the CD-RW as slave.

Why not jumper the CDRW as master and the removable HDD as
slave? Generally it is better to have the static drive as a
master, unless of course it's a drive that has different
Master vs. Single drive jumper settings like a WD, but then
it can do CS.

While I have your attention, I have another problem with that NEC 3540
drive, even when it is master. Some software I have reboots the
computer after partially installing itself,

Is the windows "restart on error" setting enabled?
(Presuming win2k or xp)?
If so, disable it and note whether there's a bluescreen
error stop code and the log in Event Viewer.

and then prompts for the
CD when it gets further along. I click the button, but the unit won't
respond. I have never had that problem with CD-RW units before.

Click what button, the "OK or Continue" (whatever) on the
software installer? Seems more like a buggy installer than
anything... presuming you don't have aggressive system
protection set up like an Antivirus program that interferes
with the installer.

Any ideas why the NEC 3540 seems to die after a reboot?

Did you mean that you manually press the eject button and
then it doesn't respond? That can sometimes happen if a
util has locked the drive (some type of software command).
Commonly things like a UDF filesystem app could do it. What
software is installed? If there is anything for UDF or
packet writing, you might dig deeper into whether that's the
source, though I have no further specifics that might help.

 

[Bob]

Is this something that happens frequently or only with one particular piece
of software?

I have seen it happen with regularity when I attempt an In-Place
Upgrade from the Win2K installation disc. When you do an IPU, you
begin just like you are going to build a new Win2K but you select
Repair after Windows discovers an existing system. The setup then
copies some files and reboots. When you come back to where you left
off, Windows prompts you to put the setup disc in and click on a
button. That's when the optical drive is unresponsive.

I have also noticed it happening on other programs which are unable to
get the drive to come alive. I have to activate it with a program I
know works and then it will respond to the other ones..

Is this a Windows XP system?
Win2K/SP4.

Is there some burning software
that might be 'locking' the drive?

With Win2K setup there is nothing other than Windows. When this
happens with programs, I sometimes will reboot to get a fresh start,
but it does no good.

It's as though the programs issue a command to the drive but the drive
does not recognize it. It could be the BIOS - I do not rule that out.

 

[Bob]

Why not jumper the CDRW as master and the removable HDD as
slave?

That's what I did. The slave is a removable drive bay which is most
often empty.

Generally it is better to have the static drive as a
master, unless of course it's a drive that has different
Master vs. Single drive jumper settings like a WD, but then
it can do CS.

This particular bay is reserved for old WD drives that don't respond
to CS. There is no provision on the drive legend and when I wrote WD
about the matter, they ignored me. So I jumper it as slave.

Is the windows "restart on error" setting enabled?
(Presuming win2k or xp)?
If so, disable it and note whether there's a bluescreen
error stop code and the log in Event Viewer.


Click what button, the "OK or Continue" (whatever) on the
software installer? Seems more like a buggy installer than
anything... presuming you don't have aggressive system
protection set up like an Antivirus program that interferes
with the installer.

I have used the Win2K In-Place Upgrade a couple times before and not
had any problem. I do not believe the Win2K Setup program knows about
the anti-virus at the earlier stages, but it is something to be aware
of.

Did you mean that you manually press the eject button and
then it doesn't respond?

No, I mean I press the OK button on the dialog that prompted me to put
the setup disc in the unit. But nothing happens.

That can sometimes happen if a
util has locked the drive (some type of software command).
Commonly things like a UDF filesystem app could do it.

UDF has two meanings. Which one are you using?

What software is installed?

More than I care to enumerate.

If there is anything for UDF or
packet writing, you might dig deeper into whether that's the
source, though I have no further specifics that might help.

The Win2K setup software is not accessible to the user. It is a blind
setup.

 

[kony]

UDF has two meanings. Which one are you using?

Universal Disk Format, not United Dairy Farmers. ;-)

 

[Bob]

Universal Disk Format, not United Dairy Farmers. ;-)

Wikipedia lists two possibilities, "Universal Disk Format" and "user
defined function".

User Defined Function: A programmed routine that has its parameters
set by the user of the system. User defined functions often are seen
as programming shortcuts as they define functions that perform
specific tasks within a larger system, such as a database or
spreadsheet program.

Now that we have that straightened out, what does UDF hace to do with
the problem at hand?

For example, I put a video disc in the 3540 and run DVD Shrink. I tell
it to Open Disc but it claims there is nothing in the unit. I then run
DVD Decrypter and it finds the unit after thrashing around for a
while. Then I can open the disc with Shrink. I could just as well
right-clicked on the optical disc icon in My Computer, in which case
Windows finds the disc and Shrink then works.

Why can't some programs find the unit or find a disc in the unit?


--

Greatest Movie Line Ever
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/MovieLine.wmv

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within
limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add
'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's
will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson

 

[kony]

Now that we have that straightened out, what does UDF hace to do with
the problem at hand?

I don't know that it does, but it uses software that locks a
drive, putting in intercepts to it AFAIK... and doing such
things can prevent one from opening the drive by manually
pressing the button. At the time it was not clear that the
drive "only" didn't respond to the installer.

For example, I put a video disc in the 3540 and run DVD Shrink. I tell
it to Open Disc but it claims there is nothing in the unit. I then run
DVD Decrypter and it finds the unit after thrashing around for a
while. Then I can open the disc with Shrink. I could just as well
right-clicked on the optical disc icon in My Computer, in which case
Windows finds the disc and Shrink then works.

Why can't some programs find the unit or find a disc in the unit?

I would suspect a driver, something from the burner software
or another physical hardware driver for a storage device,
but I have no further idea exactly what that might be, IF it
is the case, or how to resolve it.

 

[Bob]

I would suspect a driver, something from the burner software
or another physical hardware driver for a storage device,
but I have no further idea exactly what that might be, IF it
is the case, or how to resolve it.

Hmm... I suspect the same.

I flashed Liggy & Dee's infamous 1.W5 firmware hack in order to defeat
Riplock. It works as advertised because now I can achieve 12x rips on
video DVDs (8x avg) whereas with Riplock it would go no faster than 4x
(4x avg). IOW, I can now rip in half the time (DVD Decrypter).

I did not notice any problems when I had the stock firmware, so I
suspect it has to do with the hack. No big deal - I can put a CD-RW or
a DVD Reader in along with the 3540. I do not want to give up the
removal of Riplock.

I need to put my son's unhacked unit in my machine and see how it
behaves. That way I will know for sure.

--

Greatest Movie Line Ever
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/MovieLine.wmv

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within
limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add
'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's
will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson

 

[kony]

Hmm... I suspect the same.

I flashed Liggy & Dee's infamous 1.W5 firmware hack in order to defeat
Riplock. It works as advertised because now I can achieve 12x rips on
video DVDs (8x avg) whereas with Riplock it would go no faster than 4x
(4x avg). IOW, I can now rip in half the time (DVD Decrypter).

I did not notice any problems when I had the stock firmware, so I
suspect it has to do with the hack. No big deal - I can put a CD-RW or
a DVD Reader in along with the 3540. I do not want to give up the
removal of Riplock.

I need to put my son's unhacked unit in my machine and see how it
behaves. That way I will know for sure.

I don't know that reintroducing another drive will be proof,
you might have to reflash the old firmware, and/or the newer
stock NEC firmware to this same drive draw a conclusion
about the L&D firmware.

 

[Bob]

I don't know that reintroducing another drive will be proof,

If my son's stock 3540 acts differently then what else can I conclude
but that it's the firmware.

you might have to reflash the old firmware,

I do not want to do that for 2 reasons: 1) I want the new firmware
because I want the removal of Riplock; 2) I do not want to flash the
unit anymore than absolutely necessary because one glitch can render
it inoperative.

and/or the newer stock NEC firmware

NEC has not provided newer firmware for some unexplained reason.

to this same drive draw a conclusion about the L&D firmware.

I have another problem which I submitted on a separate thread entitled

"Two Optical Drives On The Same IDE Channel".

Perhaps you can take a look and offer some suggestions.

--

Greatest Movie Line Ever
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/MovieLine.wmv

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within
limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add
'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's
will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson

 

[kony]

If my son's stock 3540 acts differently then what else can I conclude
but that it's the firmware.

Well, you may be right... only you know it the rest of the
system hardware, software, and OS remained 100% static.

I do not want to do that for 2 reasons: 1) I want the new firmware
because I want the removal of Riplock; 2) I do not want to flash the
unit anymore than absolutely necessary because one glitch can render
it inoperative.


NEC has not provided newer firmware for some unexplained reason.

Maybe they haven't found (or fixed) any further bugs yet.