Old coder wants to catch up - sort of

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parametriceq

Hello,

I just realized there's only a "g" separating me from....me?
Old Coder or Old Codger?

Anyway, I haven't programmed since the late 80's. My experience then
was with DEC PDP-11's and VAX's. Primarily Basic and RMS I've let
myself get a decade+ behind. There's so much that I don't know that I
get lost in getting started.

I desire to catch up with the times, realistically keeping in mind
that it will take a lot of work. I have a lot of 'time on my hands'.
This is for personal reasons only. It's not for any job, present or
future (ie. no pressing need for accellerated study).

Besides doing it for a living, I used to enjoy programming and am
currently healthy enough to want to give it a new go. I have access
to .NET but the question is where to start? It's hard to get out of
the house, so college courses are probably not an option.

I've looked at a lot (and bought a few) books from Amazon and I'm
fairly confused. It seems that almost everything you look at states
you need working knowledge in something else.

Should I: Learn the .NET framework?
Learn VB.Net because I used to program in Basic or get
with the times and learn C (or ++ or #)?
In the 80's I did what was probably called OOP today, or is it?
XML? Hell, I don't even know HTML
Or COM or ASP or SQL or my God there's so much. Or will I need to
study several things at the same time?

So, let's assume that all I have is good, but archaic, programming
skills. What's your advice? What is best for this almost 50 y/o to
start with? Help please?!?!?

Thank you very much
 
Assuming you're interested in the Windows platform I'd recommend
that you get aquinted with event driven applications.

Good news that you can leap frog some not so successful
technologies and don't go directly to the the OO languages.

A good entry point is to start with a VB .NET "Windows Form" project
to get exposed to the event driven application paradigm. You'll learn
som .NET Framework "for free" on the way and you get the satisfaction
of developing something you can see and show off...

From then I'd do some C# and maybe Java if you're interested in
the Linux platform.

By the way, .NET knowledge is a hot marketable skill right now...
 
Hi Parametriceq! (Must be a musician as well...)
One thing to try is the MCAD books. Que has a great series, it has both
VB.NET and C# versions, lots of exercises, and is not too 'this is an
if, this is a case' kind of stuff. Start with the Windows and move to
the Web.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-6462394-1139245?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

For a good overall language starting point, try "C# and the .NET
Platform". This covers the 'bare metal' programming using just the
command line compiler, and the .NET framework. This one doesn't even
really require Visual Studio.

As for a direction, the best thing to do is decide on writing something,
then just 'doing' it. Also, maybe check out working with an Open Source
..NET project. There's a lot of great projects that need help.

Good luck!
- Dave Scheidt
 
To Old Coder from another,
As a recently retired coder (FORTRAN, Basic, C, C++, Java, C#) let me
suggest either VB.Net or C# (you can accomplish pretty much the same with
either). If you have an interest in C#, start with it - don't start with C
or C++ unless you really just want to learn a bit of several languages. If
you are interested in Windows, try Charles Petzold's books for Programming
Windows (I believe there is a version for C# and one for VB.Net).
Good luck, and have fun.
Bob Milton
 
Hello Old Coder,

I'm not far behind you. My first program ran on a PDP-11 and was stored on
paper tape from a TTY-33. I dare you to find one of those clunky and noisy
terminals in service anywhere (outside the IRS, which doesn't count ;-). I
saw a PDP-11 being used to prop up a table in a video store in Florida about
ten years ago (seriously).

Back to the topic: The biggest challenge will be learning the event-driven
model. We don't largely write applications with a "main" routine that calls
subroutines any more. It's kind of a mental shift.

Start with one of the "21 days" books or something like it... purely
tutorial in nature. Assume nothing: you are starting over, and that's OK.
I'd suggest VB.NET, just because the authors will assume less "geeky"
knowledge on your part. Bob is right, there's not a lot of difference in
terms of what you can do. However, most of the folks who write code "for
fun and profit" are in the VB camp, so most of the material aimed at the VB
world lacks the "nerdy" quality that sometimes gets attached to things aimed
at C# afficianados.

(Before I'm flamed relentlessly for this posting, I ask potential responders
to consider that I write code primarily in C# these days, but I spent many
years in the VB world, starting with VB1.0 for DOS and graduating through
VB6 and ASP. I'm on both sides.)

What you did in the 80s probably wasn't Object Oriented programming,
although some of the older concepts may apply quite nicely. Honestly, the
stuff that really matters hasn't changed.

Once you have run through a tutorial book, get a book on a subject that
interests you. Game programming (DirectX), or Web site programming
(ASP.NET), or programming to a database (something general). Try to solve a
problem that you will find interesting. Ask for tips and pointers from
geeks like me on the forums.

Once you are comfortable with the language, pick up Object Oriented
development concepts using a book like Shalloway's "Design Patterns
Explained." Very cool and easy to apply once the language isn't such a
mystery.

Pick up XML along the way, or not. Until you need it to solve a problem,
there's no point in throwing XML into the mix. It isn't hard, but there's a
bunch of details, and it isn't a good place to start.

Have fun. Welcome back.

--- Nick
 
Nick,

I am of course not flaming you, that is what I try to avoid I just disagree
with you and hope you take this seriously.
Start with one of the "21 days" books or something like it... purely
tutorial in nature. Assume nothing: you are starting over, and that's OK.
I'd suggest VB.NET, just because the authors will assume less "geeky"
knowledge on your part. Bob is right, there's not a lot of difference in
terms of what you can do. However, most of the folks who write code "for
fun and profit" are in the VB camp, so most of the material aimed at the
VB
world lacks the "nerdy" quality that sometimes gets attached to things
aimed
at C# afficianados.
Click to expand...
You make in this sentence a comparisment between classic VB and C#. You
wrote that even in a way in a later sentence which I deleted in this message
to get right on the point.

I don't like a lot of parts of classic VB the same as I dont like in classic
C and in most older languages.

However the way you are giving feed to the mythe about C# and VBNet is in my
opinion not a good thing to do.

I could have written in the same way as you did that VBNet is more for
productive bussiness applications and not for application where C is mostly
used for as by instance in the consumer game bussiness.

This is not a fair comparisment.

There is not much difference in C# and VBNet and when the mythe is gone,
than I think that VBNet because that it has an easier learning curve will be
get the status at non programmers as well which it deserves.

When C# get background compiling (as option or not), than I think almost all
the benefits that VBNet has in my opinion are almost gone and it becomes
really a matter of taste (Alpha or Beta person)

Just my thought,

Cor
 
Paremetrice,

Except with the part I disagree with a message to Nick, do I have nothing to
add to the answer from Bob and Nick.

However see this pages, it is really an easy quick start to everything in
DotNet programming.

http://samples.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/

I hope this helps,

Cor
 
Hello again, Cor,

I hope the holiday season is going well for you.


Cor Ligthert said:
Nick,

I am of course not flaming you, that is what I try to avoid I just disagree
with you and hope you take this seriously.
Click to expand...

You are clearly not flaming me. Thank you for that.
However the way you are giving feed to the mythe about C# and VBNet is in my
opinion not a good thing to do.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm not sensitive to the details of the myth about VBNet. Is the
myth that VBnet is less powerful or less productive? I never intended to
imply that. I did say that you can do the same things in VBnet as you can
in C#. I guess that I could have been more clear.
I could have written in the same way as you did that VBNet is more for
productive bussiness applications and not for application where C is mostly
used for as by instance in the consumer game bussiness.

This is not a fair comparisment.
Click to expand...

I would agree that, if you had written that, it would not be a fair
comparison.
There is not much difference in C# and VBNet and when the mythe is gone,
than I think that VBNet because that it has an easier learning curve will be
get the status at non programmers as well which it deserves.
Click to expand...

VBnet is an excellent language for many reasons. I hope that I was
providing one of those reasons to the original poster. In addition to
language features and special support within Visual Studio, VBnet has one
other strong thing going for it: very nice people who write articles and
blogs and books and NG postings. (Including you, Cor). Don't underestimate
the value of this. I was pointing out to the OP that he is better off
"catching up" (to use his term) by relying on these very nice people.
When C# get background compiling (as option or not), than I think almost all
the benefits that VBNet has in my opinion are almost gone and it becomes
really a matter of taste (Alpha or Beta person)
Click to expand...

some say that it's a matter of taste right now :-). If you reread my
message, you will see me state a preference for VB _not_ because it is a
lesser language. I suggested that the OP should learn VB because so many
caring people support it. If I implied anything else, I humbly apologize.

Have a good holiday,

--- Nick
 
Nick,
I hope the holiday season is going well for you.
Click to expand...

Seriously is not agressively.

Reading it over you could think from that sentence I was telling you a
lesson, as well not meant as that, just that I feeled myself free to
disagree with you and that this message was not meant only to flame.

Cor
 
Cor Ligthert said:
Nick,

Seriously is not agressively.

Reading it over you could think from that sentence I was telling you a
lesson, as well not meant as that, just that I feeled myself free to
disagree with you and that this message was not meant only to flame.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about it, Cor. I've learned not to try to pick at your words,
but to look deeper, at what you are trying to say.

And I enjoy having the discussion, which means an occasional disagreement.
If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.

Thanks again,
--- Nick
 
Nick,

To me, the late 70's/early 80's was a great time to be around. I
could wax nostalgic forever.

When DEC in Minneapolis pulled me from college (1977) at the Univ of
Wisc - Superior, I was sent to Maynard my second week of employment to
work on a DIBOL-11 benchmark. I was sent alone and knew nothing!
That was my first helicoptor ride too!!! For starters I had to
convert an RPG application to DIBOL (both languages were new to me).
If I recall correctly, this was the first port of DIBOL from RT-11 to
RSTS/E. The disk drive was an RM06 (I think) that was still
breadboarded - wood tabletop cabinet and all with wires sticking out
everywhere. The drives became the central feature of the PDP-11/60,
which folks likened to a top-loading 'washer/dryer looking' system
with the CPU separating the two drives. How cool but totally scary
for this 19 year-old from the northwoods!

FWIW the DIBOL-11 benchmark beat a competitors RPG II figures and we
got the biz and in a few months I got my first and substantial raise!

I really miss the old-DEC and I'm sure there's thousands out there who
feel the same.

Thanks for your advice too,
- parametricEQ (17765000)
 
Good day,

I want to thank all of you for some very good and consistent advice.
Thank you, thank you. This is exactly what I needed....somebody to
say "Start here", and I will.

Merry Christmas to all
- parametriceq
 
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