P
PJ6
I'm sorry to ask here, but google isn't giving me anything on this and I
thought this might be a good place to find out.
Paul
thought this might be a good place to find out.
Paul
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
H
Harlan Messinger
PJ6 said:I'm sorry to ask here, but google isn't giving me anything on this and I
thought this might be a good place to find out.
Microsoft took itself off of Usenet effective July 1, taking down its
NNTP servers, having decided to devote its attentions to its web-based
help forums.
P
PJ6
Harlan Messinger said:Microsoft took itself off of Usenet effective July 1, taking down its NNTP
servers, having decided to devote its attentions to its web-based help
forums.
I know it wasn't your doing, but just to rant a little -
That's a shame, because web apps take away user choice and make enormous
sacrifices to basic UI features and usability. Compared to real
applications, web interfaces just suck. They always have, and they quite
possibly always will.
Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to guess
what it was.
Paul
I
ib.dangelmeyr
Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
But in Web forums Microsoft can make additional advertisement, etc.
Who cares about the users ...
Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to guess
what it was.
But in Web forums Microsoft can make additional advertisement, etc.
Who cares about the users ...
M
Mr. Arnold
PJ6 said:I know it wasn't your doing, but just to rant a little -
That's a shame, because web apps take away user choice and make enormous
sacrifices to basic UI features and usability. Compared to real
applications, web interfaces just suck. They always have, and they quite
possibly always will.
So?
Compared to real applications -- please?
I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and DDD
in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop just as
they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy jockeys are no
where in the ballpark.
Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to
guess what it was.
Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your NG
reader and go to the VB and C# forums.
M
Mr. Arnold
But in Web forums Microsoft can make additional advertisement, etc.
Who cares about the users ...
You do know that all MS NG access is on borrowed time, right? This NG
access will be gone too in short order.
R
Registered User
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:17:17 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.
regards
A.G.
Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your NG
reader and go to the VB and C# forums.
I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.
regards
A.G.
M
Mr. Arnold
Registered User said:On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:17:17 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.
There are some issues with the bridge using Thunderbird, but Windows Mail
doesn't seem to have the issues of getting some other poster's subject
matter on a reply post and applying it to your nym supplanting what you
posted, when it really didn't happen when using another NG reader and
looking.
TB also seems to have a problem of posting to a thread that was not the
target thread when using the bridge.
P
PJ6
Mr. Arnold said:So?
Compared to real applications -- please?
I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and
DDD in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop
just as they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy
jockeys are no where in the ballpark.
Are you serious?
When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.
All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
with shades of fear. None of them had any inkling at all about what
object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all. You may personally
work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
developers generally have a clue. I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry. No
thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
failures, I've seen these people create.
And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible. The very idea
of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.
Paul
M
Mr. Arnold
Are you serious?
When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.
And how many years ago was that? Those days are long gone as .Net
Architects for Web applications are starting to use the various .NET
technologies and they are coming into play more and more.
All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
with shades of fear.
Not anymore and particularly so with the usage of WPF, Silverlight and
WCF RIA.
None of them had any inkling at all about what
object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all.
So, when they have this kind of learning material available and they
know what they are doing after they use the material, because they can
see it in action and see the source code on how it's done, then what?
http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
http://www.lhotka.net/cslanet/
And I have been on the MS platform since 1996 or so and I have seen
sorry Windows forms developers to this day -- don't kid yourself now
about the expertise level of a Windows forms developer over and Windows
Web developer in today's, because I know better.
You may personally
work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
developers generally have a clue.
I am dead serious about what is happening in today's environment. The
days you're talking about are disappearing fast.
I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry.
I have done the same thing on Windows forms applications, and prior to
that, on the mainframe platform too back in the 80's and early part of
the 90's, which was looked at code that was badly written and horror.
No
thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
failures, I've seen these people create.
Bad programming and application design is not limited to any development
environment. And I have seen some nightmares on the Windows desktop for
applications.
And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible.
I and a whole lot of others are not experiencing those issues.
About the only thing a Web UI can't do well is keep state, but that's
changing too with the HTML5, and there are other way to keep state as well.
The very idea
of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.
It's not going away, and the Web application's footprint is minuscule,
as compared to a Windows forms based solution (thin client or not) where
lots of things can go wrong and the attack vector is great. I have been
there and done that.
P
PJ6
OK, fair enough. You make good points.
I'm in the middle of writing an article on factors that affect a developer's
productivity in computer languages and architecture, with a particular focus
on end product stability (especially under change), development time
required, and estimation reliability.
Someone else made a start along these lines talking about what's wrong with
C++:
http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/CppHarm.htm
Part of the article points out flaws in web development - namely: browsers
need to accept lower-level UI instructions (HTML is too high level, too
crippled), and complex UIs are where you need a compiler validation the
most - referential integrity checks, strong typing, etc.
That looks like you're real email address.
If you're so inclined, I'd like to send you the article and get your
criticism when I'm done before I actually roll it all into a lecture. My
hatred of web development probably clouds my judgment, and I could use some
feedback from someone who has an opposite inclination.
Regards,
Paul
<...>
I'm in the middle of writing an article on factors that affect a developer's
productivity in computer languages and architecture, with a particular focus
on end product stability (especially under change), development time
required, and estimation reliability.
Someone else made a start along these lines talking about what's wrong with
C++:
http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/CppHarm.htm
Part of the article points out flaws in web development - namely: browsers
need to accept lower-level UI instructions (HTML is too high level, too
crippled), and complex UIs are where you need a compiler validation the
most - referential integrity checks, strong typing, etc.
That looks like you're real email address.
If you're so inclined, I'd like to send you the article and get your
criticism when I'm done before I actually roll it all into a lecture. My
hatred of web development probably clouds my judgment, and I could use some
feedback from someone who has an opposite inclination.
Regards,
Paul
<...>
R
Registered User
I believe you both over-value your anecdotal view of developers. My
experience indicates the individual's OO skillset has much to do with
their ability to develop both web or desktop apps. The skills and
practices are eminently transferable between the two.
Generally developers should not be responsible for producing a design
as all too often the design follows the code. This stream of
consciousness methodology can lead to work-arounds on top of
work-arounds when design flaws appear. The ersatz logic for not
correcting the design is always 'too much of an investment' in the
code that has already been written. The first and only path explored
is the one that gets taken, often with less than optimum results.
A proper design is paramount to both web and desktop apps. The problem
with using the term 'web designer' is its ambiguous meaning. There are
major differences between designing a web site and designing a web
application. The former is more about 'look & feel' (brochure-ware)
than anything else.
When pointing fingers at designers or developers, one should always
consider management's role in the entire process. The worst kind of
manager is the one who assumes because they are in charge they
automatically know all the right answers and solutions before they
understand the problem.
regards
A.G.
experience indicates the individual's OO skillset has much to do with
their ability to develop both web or desktop apps. The skills and
practices are eminently transferable between the two.
Generally developers should not be responsible for producing a design
as all too often the design follows the code. This stream of
consciousness methodology can lead to work-arounds on top of
work-arounds when design flaws appear. The ersatz logic for not
correcting the design is always 'too much of an investment' in the
code that has already been written. The first and only path explored
is the one that gets taken, often with less than optimum results.
A proper design is paramount to both web and desktop apps. The problem
with using the term 'web designer' is its ambiguous meaning. There are
major differences between designing a web site and designing a web
application. The former is more about 'look & feel' (brochure-ware)
than anything else.
When pointing fingers at designers or developers, one should always
consider management's role in the entire process. The worst kind of
manager is the one who assumes because they are in charge they
automatically know all the right answers and solutions before they
understand the problem.
regards
A.G.
M
Mr. Arnold
PJ6 said:OK, fair enough. You make good points.
I'm in the middle of writing an article on factors that affect a
developer's productivity in computer languages and architecture, with a
particular focus on end product stability (especially under change),
development time required, and estimation reliability.
Someone else made a start along these lines talking about what's wrong
with C++:
http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/CppHarm.htm
Part of the article points out flaws in web development - namely: browsers
need to accept lower-level UI instructions (HTML is too high level, too
crippled), and complex UIs are where you need a compiler validation the
most - referential integrity checks, strong typing, etc.
That looks like you're real email address.
If you're so inclined, I'd like to send you the article and get your
criticism when I'm done before I actually roll it all into a lecture. My
hatred of web development probably clouds my judgment, and I could use
some feedback from someone who has an opposite inclination.
You can post a link to your article if you like. That's not my real email
address. Like I side, I have worked on both sides of the fence developing
Win desktop, Console and Windows service applications. I have also developed
application in the Web domain, ASP.NET UI, Web services and n-tier. It's not
as bad as you make it out to be on the Web side, and they are paying big
$$$$$ for the expertise.