OC'ing P4P800Dlx; Curious Results, Suggestions Welcomed!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ken Fox
  • Start date Start date
K

Ken Fox

Hi,

I posted about this in the OC'ng Newsgroup but since this ng is the most
familiar with the Bios of a P4P800 Deluxe, I thought I'd post here as well
for any suggestions people might have.

Cutting to the chase, I seem to be getting results beyond what I would
expect given the memory modules I'm using, but only to a point. I guess my
major difficulty is understanding the BIOS settings on my mobo, and getting
the CPU and the RAM to communicate at a reasonable rate.

The setup is an Asus P4P800 Deluxe mainboard with bios revision 080009.
Previously I was running a P4 2.2ghz 400FSB CPU with DDR266 Crucial RAM.
That hardware ran fine at a FSB of 460, a 15% OC.

Now, I've got two sticks of 512MB Corsair "Value Select" DDR400 RAM =1GB
running in dual channel mode. The processor is a new 2.6GHz P4c <stock
cooling> with 800FSB, installed this morning (had to wait until I was fully
sober!) The RAM, which I mentioned in an earlier thread, was purchased at
Frys in San Diego on a rebate deal with the two sticks including sales tax
costing ~$130. Given prior posts on this board I had limited expectations
for the OC'ability of this RAM.

The RAM and CPU swap occured without incident and the system booted up fine
on default bios settings. I then began to cautiously OC the system. I must
say that the bios settings are confusing, and there does not appear to be a
straightforward way with this bios to manually adjust the CPU:RAM FSB
ratio. The settings for the DRAM frequency are limited to 266, 333, 400,
and "auto." From what I can tell, changing this setting can diminish but
not improve performance, and does not effect the afforementioned CPU:RAM
ratio.

Each time I pushed up the CPU FSB setting the DRAM frequency rose the same
amount, confirmed (if I can believe what I'm seeing) with CPU-Z, Sandra, and
whatever else I tried, up to a 10% OC. I nudged the voltage up a tad as I
went up, but
never set the vCore at above 1.575, although Asus Probe shows that it is
actually about 1.65 right now. When I got up to a FSB frequency of 230 (OC
of 15%), the CPU:RAM ratio dropped to 3:2, and I cannot get it to be better
than that with everything I've tried so far.

Prior to going above 880 (220)FSB the ratio of CPU to RAM frequency remained
at 1:1, but will not change from 3:2 when above 10% with anything I've tried
to do with the timings.

Standard spd timings were 2.5, 4, 4, and 8. The system would not boot with
a CAS setting of 3.0, but will boot with 2.5 and 2.0. The DRAM precharge
delay (last number in timings) can be reduced to 7 but it doesn't seem to do
anything.

I have done some Memtest86 runs, got 7 passes without errors at a 10% OC
(FSB 220/880, CPU:RAM ratio of 1:1). I have not done any Memtests at higher
frequencies because my suspicion is that the benchmarks will be worse with a
CPU:RAM ratio of 3:2 even if the CPU is racing along at 3+GHz. if the RAM is
slow is as molassas. Heat has not been a problem so far at any setting I've
tried up to a CPU OC of 20% (3.120GHz).

I have not tried monkeying with DRAM voltage and maybe this would change
things but I'm reluctant to do that if it won't change the CPU:RAM
frequency. I thought the bios would have a straightforward way to adjust
the CPU:RAM ratio, but if it does I cannot find it!!

Any suggestions on how to get more performance out of this arrangement would
be hugely appreciated!

Thanks!

Ken
 
Any suggestions on how to get more performance out of this arrangement
would
be hugely appreciated!
Click to expand...


I have decided not to overclock. I did 3.75 GHz quite comfortably, but I am
happy with stock 3.0 GHz, it runs cooler and PAT works which makes a big
difference to performance. PAT turns off when you overclock, which sucks.

--
"Of course, I always look at guys who have girlfriends. I compare myself to
them, as hard as that is, and it's never good news. Then I think, gosh,
imagine looking like that. Imagine being able to approach a girl you like
and be greeted with a SMILE, rather than a look of fear or apprehension.
Imagine what that would do for your self esteem, not to mention your whole
outlook on life. Wow! That would be nice."
 
I found that PAT turns off if you run with 4 sticks of memmory as opposed to
2 sticks in the non overclocked mode! Anybody else noticed this?

Alan
 
Ken,
There are a couple of standard rules to follow with oc the P4P800D.

In BIOS SETUP:
Advanced~Jumperfree Configuration~AI Overclock Tuner=Manual

CPU External Frequency (MHz)~ increase 1MHz increments with the + key on
your numberlock key pad. Mine is set to 285, but start at 250.

Dram Frequency~ set to 366 which is a 5:4 ratio....this keeps your DDR400
within spec.

AGP/PCI Frequency (MHz)~you always keep it locked to 66.66/33.33...this ia a
major rule, it keeps your perpherials running at their spec, so no data lose

Leave everything else set to auto on this setting, eventually you can
increase Vcore to 1.6 max, but leave it set to auto until your OS becomes
alittle unstable. Setting it higher is usually mandatory when you're maxing
out your oc speed.

Same goes for DDR Reference Voltage~oc'ing you might set to 2.75 like mine
is now.

then the next important oc menu is~ Chipset~set Configure DRAM Timing to
Manual~3-4-4-8-8 always works for the greatest stability.

Leave everything else set to Auto, then you can change your Idle Timer
to~Infinite and Refresh Rate to 7.8~15.6usec for extra stability or 64usec
for speed.

HTH, just watch your temps as you increase and run Prime95 or 3Dmark 2001 as
tests for stability, there it's that easy.

My 2.4c is at 3.424MHz 3:2~FSB285~temps 22C/71F~3-4-4-8~Vcore 1.568 to 1.632
PC Probe. The higher the FSB the greater the bandwidth, then work on your
timings for 3D Performance. I need some PC3500 to tighten up my rig some
more but I'm tickled pink with it's stability.

Good Luck!
 
Hmmm good points. I'll try that. I have a slightly diff config and I'm
running 2.94Ghz 1:1 @247FSB

--

------Splitskull-----

| Ken,
| There are a couple of standard rules to follow with oc the P4P800D.
|
| In BIOS SETUP:
| Advanced~Jumperfree Configuration~AI Overclock Tuner=Manual
|
| CPU External Frequency (MHz)~ increase 1MHz increments with the + key on
| your numberlock key pad. Mine is set to 285, but start at 250.
|
| Dram Frequency~ set to 366 which is a 5:4 ratio....this keeps your DDR400
| within spec.
|
| AGP/PCI Frequency (MHz)~you always keep it locked to 66.66/33.33...this ia
a
| major rule, it keeps your perpherials running at their spec, so no data
lose
|
| Leave everything else set to auto on this setting, eventually you can
| increase Vcore to 1.6 max, but leave it set to auto until your OS becomes
| alittle unstable. Setting it higher is usually mandatory when you're
maxing
| out your oc speed.
|
| Same goes for DDR Reference Voltage~oc'ing you might set to 2.75 like mine
| is now.
|
| then the next important oc menu is~ Chipset~set Configure DRAM Timing to
| Manual~3-4-4-8-8 always works for the greatest stability.
|
| Leave everything else set to Auto, then you can change your Idle Timer
| to~Infinite and Refresh Rate to 7.8~15.6usec for extra stability or 64usec
| for speed.
|
| HTH, just watch your temps as you increase and run Prime95 or 3Dmark 2001
as
| tests for stability, there it's that easy.
|
| My 2.4c is at 3.424MHz 3:2~FSB285~temps 22C/71F~3-4-4-8~Vcore 1.568 to
1.632
| PC Probe. The higher the FSB the greater the bandwidth, then work on your
| timings for 3D Performance. I need some PC3500 to tighten up my rig some
| more but I'm tickled pink with it's stability.
|
| Good Luck!
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | > Hi,
| >
| > I posted about this in the OC'ng Newsgroup but since this ng is the most
| > familiar with the Bios of a P4P800 Deluxe, I thought I'd post here as
well
| > for any suggestions people might have.
| >
| > Cutting to the chase, I seem to be getting results beyond what I would
| > expect given the memory modules I'm using, but only to a point. I guess
| my
| > major difficulty is understanding the BIOS settings on my mobo, and
| getting
| > the CPU and the RAM to communicate at a reasonable rate.
| >
| > The setup is an Asus P4P800 Deluxe mainboard with bios revision 080009.
| > Previously I was running a P4 2.2ghz 400FSB CPU with DDR266 Crucial RAM.
| > That hardware ran fine at a FSB of 460, a 15% OC.
| >
| > Now, I've got two sticks of 512MB Corsair "Value Select" DDR400 RAM =1GB
| > running in dual channel mode. The processor is a new 2.6GHz P4c <stock
| > cooling> with 800FSB, installed this morning (had to wait until I was
| fully
| > sober!) The RAM, which I mentioned in an earlier thread, was purchased
at
| > Frys in San Diego on a rebate deal with the two sticks including sales
tax
| > costing ~$130. Given prior posts on this board I had limited
expectations
| > for the OC'ability of this RAM.
| >
| > The RAM and CPU swap occured without incident and the system booted up
| fine
| > on default bios settings. I then began to cautiously OC the system. I
| must
| > say that the bios settings are confusing, and there does not appear to
be
| a
| > straightforward way with this bios to manually adjust the CPU:RAM FSB
| > ratio. The settings for the DRAM frequency are limited to 266, 333,
400,
| > and "auto." From what I can tell, changing this setting can diminish
but
| > not improve performance, and does not effect the afforementioned CPU:RAM
| > ratio.
| >
| > Each time I pushed up the CPU FSB setting the DRAM frequency rose the
same
| > amount, confirmed (if I can believe what I'm seeing) with CPU-Z, Sandra,
| and
| > whatever else I tried, up to a 10% OC. I nudged the voltage up a tad as
I
| > went up, but
| > never set the vCore at above 1.575, although Asus Probe shows that it is
| > actually about 1.65 right now. When I got up to a FSB frequency of 230
| (OC
| > of 15%), the CPU:RAM ratio dropped to 3:2, and I cannot get it to be
| better
| > than that with everything I've tried so far.
| >
| > Prior to going above 880 (220)FSB the ratio of CPU to RAM frequency
| remained
| > at 1:1, but will not change from 3:2 when above 10% with anything I've
| tried
| > to do with the timings.
| >
| > Standard spd timings were 2.5, 4, 4, and 8. The system would not boot
| with
| > a CAS setting of 3.0, but will boot with 2.5 and 2.0. The DRAM
precharge
| > delay (last number in timings) can be reduced to 7 but it doesn't seem
to
| do
| > anything.
| >
| > I have done some Memtest86 runs, got 7 passes without errors at a 10% OC
| > (FSB 220/880, CPU:RAM ratio of 1:1). I have not done any Memtests at
| higher
| > frequencies because my suspicion is that the benchmarks will be worse
with
| a
| > CPU:RAM ratio of 3:2 even if the CPU is racing along at 3+GHz. if the
RAM
| is
| > slow is as molassas. Heat has not been a problem so far at any setting
| I've
| > tried up to a CPU OC of 20% (3.120GHz).
| >
| > I have not tried monkeying with DRAM voltage and maybe this would change
| > things but I'm reluctant to do that if it won't change the CPU:RAM
| > frequency. I thought the bios would have a straightforward way to
adjust
| > the CPU:RAM ratio, but if it does I cannot find it!!
| >
| > Any suggestions on how to get more performance out of this arrangement
| would
| > be hugely appreciated!
| >
| > Thanks!
| >
| > Ken
| >
| >
| >
|
|
 
yes i have

Alan Guest said:
I found that PAT turns off if you run with 4 sticks of memmory as opposed to
2 sticks in the non overclocked mode! Anybody else noticed this?

Alan
Click to expand...
 
I'm @FSB245 1:1 right now.......I'm amazed my Samsung PC3200 is running at
245MHz to be honest! I did increase DDR volts to 2.85 and set my Chipset
timings Idle & Refresh back to Auto and Burst rate back to 4.(3-4-4-8-4)

Hmmm......I'll try FSB247 see if it will boot?
 
You can overclock this puppy, AND keep full PAT, if you use BigToes'
mod on http://www.abxzone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=41.
Like this:

1)afudos /iXXXXXXX.ami /n /pbnc (use P4P8X bios 1st)
2)then, afudos /n (using the P4P800 deluxe bios)
use an OLD afudos file, not the latest

The idea is to, 1st underclock your machine in the bios(set FSB 133,
DRAM 266), then flash your bios and bootblock with a P4P8X motherboard
bios (I used ver 12). This has something to do with tricking the bios
into believing it's a 533FSB board.

Go back in the bios and underclock, again, as above.(settings have
reset too high)

Now, reflash the bios using the P4P800 bios (I used ver 12, as 14 was
slower, for me, and less overclockable), but don't overwrite the
bootblock. Just use the /n switch. (You have to use an older
afudos.exe to do this, as the new one automatically overwrites your
bootblock.)

You can now go back into the bios, now, and manually do your settings.
I'm running stable @223FSB with full PAT enabled. PAT makes a great
deal of difference in memory speeds....maybe 15% improvement. In fact,
I get better memory speed with this setup, than without PAT @237FSB.
You cannot O/C quite as high with PAT enabled.
This mod is totally reversible, just do a complete reflash with a
P4P800 bios, using the new afudos file.

Asus P4P800 Deluxe P4c [email protected] (stock HSF)
2X512MB Winbond PC3200 in Dual Mode @223 (1:1)
CAS2.5/3/2/5
PAT enabled w/ BigToe's mod
ATI 9700 Pro @365/338
2 - WD400JB 8MB cache RAID0
Maxtor 40GB ATA-133
Enermax 430 Watts Power
Audigy
WinXP
1/2 open case
Vcore=1.65V
Dimm=2.75V
AGP=1.6V
Bios 12 (14 was slower, and wouldn't O/C as well)

Gene
 
Sorry for the top post but I don't want to break up what you put below.
This is great stuff and I appreciate your taking the time to type it in.
I'll be trying this soon, right after I get my other active project -- a new
Linux box, set up early this week!

Thanks,

ken
 
Great Stuff Gene -- I would never have found this elsewhere!

Right now I've got a rockhard stable 10% OC of the CPU PLUS the RAM, which
was el cheapo DDR400 Corsair Value Select RAM running at DDR440 with a 1:1
CPU:RAM ratio. I hope that this mod can do even better, although I presume
there would be a performance hit on the RAM due to the need to use a ratio,
but it is hard to figure where the PAT fits in without actually trying it.

Thanks again!

ken
 
I used HyperX running at 2.65v with the same memory timings like yours. With
bios 12 runs at 247MHz with bios 14 no more oc. nothing nada... not even
5%... lol... time to downgrade to 12

--

------Splitskull-----

| I'm @FSB245 1:1 right now.......I'm amazed my Samsung PC3200 is running at
| 245MHz to be honest! I did increase DDR volts to 2.85 and set my Chipset
| timings Idle & Refresh back to Auto and Burst rate back to 4.(3-4-4-8-4)
|
| Hmmm......I'll try FSB247 see if it will boot?
|
|
| | > I'm not sure I can run 1:1 @247FSB Split?
| >
| > What kinda DDR are you running?
| >
| > | > > Hmmm good points. I'll try that. I have a slightly diff config and I'm
| > > running 2.94Ghz 1:1 @247FSB
| > >
| > > --
| > >
| > > ------Splitskull-----
| > >
| > > | > > | Ken,
| > > | There are a couple of standard rules to follow with oc the P4P800D.
| > > |
| > > | In BIOS SETUP:
| > > | Advanced~Jumperfree Configuration~AI Overclock Tuner=Manual
| > > |
| > > | CPU External Frequency (MHz)~ increase 1MHz increments with the +
key
| on
| > > | your numberlock key pad. Mine is set to 285, but start at 250.
| > > |
| > > | Dram Frequency~ set to 366 which is a 5:4 ratio....this keeps your
| > DDR400
| > > | within spec.
| > > |
| > > | AGP/PCI Frequency (MHz)~you always keep it locked to
| 66.66/33.33...this
| > ia
| > > a
| > > | major rule, it keeps your perpherials running at their spec, so no
| data
| > > lose
| > > |
| > > | Leave everything else set to auto on this setting, eventually you
can
| > > | increase Vcore to 1.6 max, but leave it set to auto until your OS
| > becomes
| > > | alittle unstable. Setting it higher is usually mandatory when you're
| > > maxing
| > > | out your oc speed.
| > > |
| > > | Same goes for DDR Reference Voltage~oc'ing you might set to 2.75
like
| > mine
| > > | is now.
| > > |
| > > | then the next important oc menu is~ Chipset~set Configure DRAM
Timing
| to
| > > | Manual~3-4-4-8-8 always works for the greatest stability.
| > > |
| > > | Leave everything else set to Auto, then you can change your Idle
Timer
| > > | to~Infinite and Refresh Rate to 7.8~15.6usec for extra stability or
| > 64usec
| > > | for speed.
| > > |
| > > | HTH, just watch your temps as you increase and run Prime95 or 3Dmark
| > 2001
| > > as
| > > | tests for stability, there it's that easy.
| > > |
| > > | My 2.4c is at 3.424MHz 3:2~FSB285~temps 22C/71F~3-4-4-8~Vcore 1.568
to
| > > 1.632
| > > | PC Probe. The higher the FSB the greater the bandwidth, then work on
| > your
| > > | timings for 3D Performance. I need some PC3500 to tighten up my rig
| some
| > > | more but I'm tickled pink with it's stability.
| > > |
| > > | Good Luck!
| > > |
| > > |
| > > |
| > > |
| > > |
| > > |
| > > | | > > | > Hi,
| > > | >
| > > | > I posted about this in the OC'ng Newsgroup but since this ng is
the
| > most
| > > | > familiar with the Bios of a P4P800 Deluxe, I thought I'd post here
| as
| > > well
| > > | > for any suggestions people might have.
| > > | >
| > > | > Cutting to the chase, I seem to be getting results beyond what I
| would
| > > | > expect given the memory modules I'm using, but only to a point. I
| > guess
| > > | my
| > > | > major difficulty is understanding the BIOS settings on my mobo,
and
| > > | getting
| > > | > the CPU and the RAM to communicate at a reasonable rate.
| > > | >
| > > | > The setup is an Asus P4P800 Deluxe mainboard with bios revision
| > 080009.
| > > | > Previously I was running a P4 2.2ghz 400FSB CPU with DDR266
Crucial
| > RAM.
| > > | > That hardware ran fine at a FSB of 460, a 15% OC.
| > > | >
| > > | > Now, I've got two sticks of 512MB Corsair "Value Select" DDR400
RAM
| > =1GB
| > > | > running in dual channel mode. The processor is a new 2.6GHz P4c
| > <stock
| > > | > cooling> with 800FSB, installed this morning (had to wait until I
| was
| > > | fully
| > > | > sober!) The RAM, which I mentioned in an earlier thread, was
| > purchased
| > > at
| > > | > Frys in San Diego on a rebate deal with the two sticks including
| sales
| > > tax
| > > | > costing ~$130. Given prior posts on this board I had limited
| > > expectations
| > > | > for the OC'ability of this RAM.
| > > | >
| > > | > The RAM and CPU swap occured without incident and the system
booted
| up
| > > | fine
| > > | > on default bios settings. I then began to cautiously OC the
system.
| > I
| > > | must
| > > | > say that the bios settings are confusing, and there does not
appear
| to
| > > be
| > > | a
| > > | > straightforward way with this bios to manually adjust the CPU:RAM
| FSB
| > > | > ratio. The settings for the DRAM frequency are limited to 266,
333,
| > > 400,
| > > | > and "auto." From what I can tell, changing this setting can
| diminish
| > > but
| > > | > not improve performance, and does not effect the afforementioned
| > CPU:RAM
| > > | > ratio.
| > > | >
| > > | > Each time I pushed up the CPU FSB setting the DRAM frequency rose
| the
| > > same
| > > | > amount, confirmed (if I can believe what I'm seeing) with CPU-Z,
| > Sandra,
| > > | and
| > > | > whatever else I tried, up to a 10% OC. I nudged the voltage up a
| tad
| > as
| > > I
| > > | > went up, but
| > > | > never set the vCore at above 1.575, although Asus Probe shows that
| it
| > is
| > > | > actually about 1.65 right now. When I got up to a FSB frequency
of
| > 230
| > > | (OC
| > > | > of 15%), the CPU:RAM ratio dropped to 3:2, and I cannot get it to
be
| > > | better
| > > | > than that with everything I've tried so far.
| > > | >
| > > | > Prior to going above 880 (220)FSB the ratio of CPU to RAM
frequency
| > > | remained
| > > | > at 1:1, but will not change from 3:2 when above 10% with anything
| I've
| > > | tried
| > > | > to do with the timings.
| > > | >
| > > | > Standard spd timings were 2.5, 4, 4, and 8. The system would not
| boot
| > > | with
| > > | > a CAS setting of 3.0, but will boot with 2.5 and 2.0. The DRAM
| > > precharge
| > > | > delay (last number in timings) can be reduced to 7 but it doesn't
| seem
| > > to
| > > | do
| > > | > anything.
| > > | >
| > > | > I have done some Memtest86 runs, got 7 passes without errors at a
| 10%
| > OC
| > > | > (FSB 220/880, CPU:RAM ratio of 1:1). I have not done any Memtests
| at
| > > | higher
| > > | > frequencies because my suspicion is that the benchmarks will be
| worse
| > > with
| > > | a
| > > | > CPU:RAM ratio of 3:2 even if the CPU is racing along at 3+GHz. if
| the
| > > RAM
| > > | is
| > > | > slow is as molassas. Heat has not been a problem so far at any
| > setting
| > > | I've
| > > | > tried up to a CPU OC of 20% (3.120GHz).
| > > | >
| > > | > I have not tried monkeying with DRAM voltage and maybe this would
| > change
| > > | > things but I'm reluctant to do that if it won't change the CPU:RAM
| > > | > frequency. I thought the bios would have a straightforward way to
| > > adjust
| > > | > the CPU:RAM ratio, but if it does I cannot find it!!
| > > | >
| > > | > Any suggestions on how to get more performance out of this
| arrangement
| > > | would
| > > | > be hugely appreciated!
| > > | >
| > > | > Thanks!
| > > | >
| > > | > Ken
| > > | >
| > > | >
| > > | >
| > > |
| > > |
| > >
| > >
| >
| >
|
|
 
Well, I tried your suggestions. One issue is that the Dram Frequency
choices in my bios revision (080009) include only 266, 320, 400, and Auto;
there is no 366. When I pushed the FSB up to 250, setting the Dram
Frequency at 320 actually produced 400 in CPU-Z, so I think I got what you
were suggesting although I got it indirectly. The ratio produced, as you
suggested, was 5:4.

I pushed the Vcore up as high as 1.5875, and the DDR ref. voltage up as high
as 2.65; I did not feel comfortable going above this because I'm paranoid
about frying my brand new components!!! As for timings, my RAM absolutely
refuses to run, refuses to boot, at cas 3.0; it will boot only at 2.5 or 2.0
for some reason. The SPD gives the cas as 2.5 at the rated DDR400.

Temps have not been a problem -- I've not seen above 38C on either mobo or
cpu, with Toast or various of the Sandra benchmarking utilities.

The problem is that after I got everything apparently buffed out, and stable
on Win2K, I ran Memtest86 and got so many errors that the program rebooted
after about 20 or 30 seconds. This happened over and over again, each time
I tried it.

So, granted, I could crank up the Vcore above 1.5875 or the DDR ref. voltage
above 2.65, but we are getting into an area where the risks likely outweigh
the benefits, at least for me.

Previously, I've been able to run the board at a FSB of 220 with a CPU:RAM
ratio of 1:1, for a CPU speed of 2.86 on my P4c 2.60; granted this is not
spectacular, but the fact that I'm also above to run the el cheapo DDR400
RAM at DDR440 with a CPU:RAM ratio of 1:1, with zero errors on 30 passes of
Memtest86, with the Vcore at 1.5625 or 1.575 (in the bios) and Auto on all
the other settings including DDR ref. voltage, tells me that I've got a rock
hard stable and safe system that is not going to fry components or create
errors in those things I use a computer for!

In the end it comes down to the fact that each stick of RAM and each CPU
will behave differently regardless of how they were labelled when sold. My
cheap RAM doesn't seem to mind overclocking in the range of 10% and will
communicate directly with the CPU at this speed across the FSB. I guess I
could be a helluva lot worse off!

I've not yet tried Gene's suggestions re Big Toes' mod on the abxzone forum.
Judging by his setup and reported numbers, his OC is in the range of what
I've got but with PAT enabled. This might well be the optimal setup for the
components I have in my box and the way they are responding to this OCing.
I won't know until I try it.

Thanks again for your suggestions which perhaps would have worked better had
I had more guts to fully impliment them!!

Best,

ken
 
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