No power up

  • Thread starter Thread starter DavidF
  • Start date Start date
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DavidF

Excuse me, but I don't know how to write a short description in the subject
to describe my issue, nor to search for a solution.

I have a Dell Dimension 8300, XP Pro, sp1 that has operated without problem
for about a year. I added an external modem and a second HP DVD drive right
away, but otherwise no hardware changes. About a month or so ago when I
turned on the power to the computer via the surge protector, the start up
button on the computer, did not work on an intermittent basis. I got a new
APC surge protector/battery backup and that didn't help. I opened the case,
cleaned out the little dust I found, checked all connections.

I now find that if I have shut down, and turned the power off to the
computer, the next morning the start up button typically does not work.
However, if I leave the power on, go make a cup of coffee, and come back,
the button will work, and I can boot up. Sometimes I turn off the surge
protector, wait a minute, and turn it back on. Then if I sit and watch the
computer after 30 seconds to several minutes, I will notice the light flash
on the front of the HP DVD drive, similar to what you see on all the drives
during boot up. After that happens the start button works and computer will
boot. I specifically checked the connections to the HP drive when I opened
the case. Its almost like something needs to "warm up" before the start up
button will work...which I know is crazy.

The only other symptom I am noticing is that occasionally I will get some
blips, lines and distortions on my monitor while using the system.

Anyone have any ideas on how to track down this electrical gremlin? Thanks.

DavidF
 
Bob I said:
Try leaving the surge strip ON, and shut the PC down with the Shutdown
command. If you are killing all power, your CMOS battery may be
running flat.
Click to expand...


As alluded to by Bob, have you yet tried replacing the CMOS battery?
Sounds like yours is dead or too degraded to provided enough voltage to
maintain the CMOS settings. While it sounds like the CMOS battery
should only help to retain the BIOS settings in the CMOS table and
should not affect powering up the computer, there are some motherboards
that won't power up with a dead CMOS battery. I've only hit one such
mobo that but I've talked with other jobbers and service folk to find
out that there are mobos that behave that way. In fact, it's pretty
easy to test:
 
Are 300+ volt transients appearing regulary on your 120 volt AC? Are
your lights dimming to less than 40% intensity? If not, then that
surge protector or APC solution does not even claim to address your
problem. Those solutions are so often recommended only by those who
don't even know how electricity works.

If a power supply problem exists, then a 3.5 digit multimeter will
identify that problem now (in minutes) and without speculation.
Details of things to look at are two discussions in "Computer doesnt
start at all" in alt.comp.hardware on 10 Jan 2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/2t69q or
"I think my power supply is dead" in alt.comp.hardware on 5 Feb 2004
at
http://www.tinyurl.com/2musa

In particular, numbers from the purple, green, and gray wires are
important. When system should be off, when system has been power
cycled from 120 volt (ie power strip switching), and after powered on.
Minimal numbers are 3.22, 4.87, and 12.7. Those meter numbers also
tell your responders other useful facts.

You have a Dell which means it comes with comprehensive hardware
diagnostics for free. Normally such diagnostics are executed to verify
hardware integrity. But your type of problem is unique - probably is
not tested by diagnostics.

Power supply 'system' is far more than just a power supply. My first
impression is a problem with the power supply controller - another
component of that power supply 'system'.
 
Thanks to all four of you that offered suggestions. I did try Bob I's
suggestion about leaving the surge strip on. The power up button does then
work even when computer has been shut down over night.

I haven't opened the case to see what type of battery I have, but if it is
easily removed, and doesn't require soldering, it sounds like that is a
relatively easy and inexpensive first step to try. However, I am wondering
if a dead or degraded battery would also account for the occasion blips,
lines etc. on my monitor after booting? Any comments?

Thanks again.

DavidF
 
w_tom,

Thanks for your detailed response and references. I have only begun to read
all the material.

As I posted above, I did try Bob I's suggestion about leaving the surge
strip on, and that is why I am late to respond. The power up button does
then work even when computer has been shut down over night. Does that change
your first impression that it is a problem with the power supply controller,
or any of your other advice? Though it is speculation that the battery
needs to be replaced, this seems to be at least an inexpensive and quick
experiment in fixing the problem...

I will look at the Dell hardware diagnostics again, but I think you are
correct from what I remember.

Thanks for your assistance.

DavidF
 
Vanguard's suggestion of CMOS battery has created a solution. But
again, that is why the tool is so ubiquitous as to be sold even in Home
Depot, Lowes, Sears, and Radio Shack - the 3.5 digit multimeter.
Simply remove and measure battery voltage. Is the battery a reason for
the problem? Some want to fix things by swapping parts. Again, wrong
strategy. If the battery is a reason for your intermittent problem,
then the meter will provide useful and definitive facts - no doubt.

Your first task is to get definitive answers now - that means the
meter. A 'try this and try that' solution tends to lead to 'maybe'
solutions. Again, what is the voltage on that purple wire when power
cord is connected - power on and power off. A defective voltage (one
that exists but has wrong numbers) will even cause power supply
controller to behave weird.

Get that meter to find a problem AND to provide your on-line
assistance with useful information.
 
w_tom,

Thanks for all your good advise, and the links to the supporting material. I
have bookmarked or printed it all. I did try changing the battery as a $4
and quick attempt at fixing the problem...it didn't. I do agree with your
assertion that one should determine what the problem is rather than just
start replacing things, and I will probably follow you advice. However, what
you suggest is intimidating to me. I am not a total newbie, but I have never
used a 3.5 digit multimeter, and the idea of poking around with one is
almost beyond my comfort level. Do you perhaps know of a link or two about
how to actually use the tool, in general? I guess I just don't want to make
matters worse, and probably should turn the problem over to a professional.
Thanks again.

DavidF
 
Using a meter is about as complicated as using a screwdriver. One
simple rule - avoid the current (amp) settings until better understood
(instructions read). Stick to voltage settings. The tool is
screwdriver simple. Set to DC voltage (maybe 20 volt range). Touch red
lead to colored wire. Touch black lead to any ground (ie chassis).
Read and record number. Using a computer is far more complicated and
can be far more destructive.

But then also provided were some picture examples. There is not
reason for fear. Its a power tool so easy to use that it is sold even
in Home Depot, Lowes, Radio Shack, Sears ...

A first measurement is that removed battery. Touch each meter lead
to opposite battery sides. Read number. Reply not just good or bad.
Post that number. If correct, computer is about 1 year old? Another
number alongside that voltage to create useful facts. A meter in DC
volts cannot make things worse.
 
Ok...you convinced me. I can be a bit of a nellie when it comes to
electricity, but it sounds like something I can do. Its likely to be a day
or two before I get back to you. Thanks for your patience.

DavidF
 
DavidF said:
Thanks to all four of you that offered suggestions. I did try Bob I's
suggestion about leaving the surge strip on. The power up button does
then
work even when computer has been shut down over night.

I haven't opened the case to see what type of battery I have, but if
it is
easily removed, and doesn't require soldering, it sounds like that is
a
relatively easy and inexpensive first step to try. However, I am
wondering
if a dead or degraded battery would also account for the occasion
blips,
lines etc. on my monitor after booting? Any comments?

Thanks again.

DavidF
Click to expand...


It is probably a wafer battery. You slide it out of the clip and slide
in a new one. Might be a CR2032 which is common and can be found at
lots of electonic stores, Target, etc.

The video problem is probably an entirely separate issue, like the wrong
video drivers or a bad monitor or video card.
 
You were right about the type of battery, and I switched it out...no change.
I am leaning toward trying to track the problem down before I replace
anything else. W_tom has offered some direction, but I am open to any and
all suggestions. thanks.

DavidF
 
Thanks, w_tom. Pictures are very helpful as are the articles. I have printed
them out and am hoping to have time to do some more troubleshooting this
week. I'll keep you posted.

By the way, given I am also having video symptoms, do you have any links to
articles about troubleshooting video cards?

thanks again...DavidF
 
Thanks for the suggestion Bob I. However after googling ESCD, it doesn't
seem applicable to this one year old XP pro machine...seemed to apply
primarily to Win 95, yes?

DavidF
 
Hi, I would not go playing with a meter really - unless its for
learning. Its not likely to be a CMOS button battery failure - you can
tell if its that as the time would be lost.

I have an 8300 and had similar symptoms at 1.5 years. Its the power
supply dying - as they die they behave oddly. After a few months of this
mine never turned on again. My symptoms were similar - PC wouldn't wake
up from stand by or turn on reliably.

Bought a replacement Dell power supply (4 screws and the connectors to
the motherboard and disk drives to pull off) and all is well.


Dell don't have particularly reliable power supplies - I have a client
with 35 Optiplex GX250s - 20 of them have blown their power supplies
within 2 years.
 
Ignore the the Win95 references. That is a documented issue. I would
RESET the ESCD in the BIOS as it won't hurt.
 
aus,

Thanks for your post. Did you consider replacing the power supply with a
better quality one, or is one just asking for trouble trying to find one
that would "fit". I also wonder if a higher wattage would be appropriate as
I have added a modem, and second DVD drive and might eventually get around
to adding a second hard drive. Do you think the standard supply will be
adequate?

DavidF
 
Bob I,

Thanks...I will give it a look, but after reading the post from aus, I am
leaning toward just replacing the power supply.

DavidF
 
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