new system, need video card for dual 22" LCD monitors, non-gamer

  • Thread starter Thread starter tanstafl
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tanstafl

xpost to ATI, Nvidia & pc-homebuilt for coverage

I'm starting to build a new system and I want to equip it with 22"
dual monitors in landscape/portrait 1680x1050 & 1050x1680. 2 Samsung
2243BWX monitors. Mobo is a GA-X48-DQ6 with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I'm
not a gamer (other than an occasional rousing round of Minesweeper:-)

I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat). I don't need HDMI or HDCP. Ability to read the DCC to
adapt to a change in the monitor pivot position is a plus.

Operational stability & thermal survivability is paramount - cost
isn't an issue. If ample operational envelope can't be gotten with
passive cooling, then a move upscale to a fan based card that can be
stable is something I'll have to accept - even if loss of the PCIe
slot is the price. Build it & forget it. My main W2K system has been
driving a 21" CRT with a Radeon 70 LE AGP passive card for 8 years now
and still trucking. I'd like to see Dec 2016 come and go the same
with the new XPproSP3 platform.

Note: don't assume I know precisely what I'm asking for - that would
be a mistake. I've done a bit of reading and 'I think' the above is
sensible - but if not, don't hesitate to enlighten me,
ignorance ain't bliss.
 
tanstafl said:
xpost to ATI, Nvidia & pc-homebuilt for coverage

I'm starting to build a new system and I want to equip it with 22"
dual monitors in landscape/portrait 1680x1050 & 1050x1680. 2 Samsung
2243BWX monitors. Mobo is a GA-X48-DQ6 with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I'm
not a gamer (other than an occasional rousing round of Minesweeper:-)

I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat).
Click to expand...

RAM does not produce much heat, and the amount of RAM on any modern
card is good enough for 24bpp at any resolution even with two
monitors.

Any passively cooled Dual-DVI card should do.

I have a Sapphire Ultimate Radeon X1650 Pro, which should fit your
bill. The heat sink is on the back side (where the CPU fan blows on
it), so the PCIe x1 slot below it should be usable.
Operational stability & thermal survivability is paramount - cost
isn't an issue.
Click to expand...

Then buy several cards. Two of my passively cooled cards died after
several years of usage (one was a Voodoo 3 3000, the other a Radeon
9600). They were stable before they died.

Followups set to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati.

- anton
 
tanstafl said:
xpost to ATI, Nvidia & pc-homebuilt for coverage

I'm starting to build a new system and I want to equip it with 22"
dual monitors in landscape/portrait 1680x1050 & 1050x1680. 2 Samsung
2243BWX monitors. Mobo is a GA-X48-DQ6 with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I'm
not a gamer (other than an occasional rousing round of Minesweeper:-)

I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat). I don't need HDMI or HDCP. Ability to read the DCC to
adapt to a change in the monitor pivot position is a plus.

Operational stability & thermal survivability is paramount - cost
isn't an issue. If ample operational envelope can't be gotten with
passive cooling, then a move upscale to a fan based card that can be
stable is something I'll have to accept - even if loss of the PCIe
slot is the price. Build it & forget it. My main W2K system has been
driving a 21" CRT with a Radeon 70 LE AGP passive card for 8 years now
and still trucking. I'd like to see Dec 2016 come and go the same
with the new XPproSP3 platform.

Note: don't assume I know precisely what I'm asking for - that would
be a mistake. I've done a bit of reading and 'I think' the above is
sensible - but if not, don't hesitate to enlighten me,
ignorance ain't bliss.
Click to expand...

Your monitor has VGA and DVI connectors. That means, in a pinch,
you could use a card with one VGA and one DVI connector on it.
And that means a very cheap card could be used (your first card
will be a learning experience, where you learn that cheap is
not the same thing as good).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001254&Tpk=2243BWX

On DVI interfaces, 1680x1050 is covered by a "single link" connector.
See the Specifications section here, where there are some examples of
resolution options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

You can skim through the lists here, to find a gutless card.
And gutless should have low power consumption. Something with
a 64 bit memory interface on the GPU for example. HD 3450
or 8400 GS perhaps.

http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/
http://www.gpureview.com

Next, you can use the Newegg Advanced Search. Set interface to
PCI Express 2.0 if you want. Set "Cooler" near the bottom of
the list, to "fanless". It claims there are 143 cards (some
of which could be PCI Express 1.0 version cards).

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=48&name=Desktop-Graphics-Video-Cards

When I started reviewing the cards, virtually all of them had
issues of one sort or another. On one card, a guy said that
running two monitors in dual mode, the "whites" were blown
out on one display. That means something was wrong with
the contrast/brightness/gamma or some other setting, which
made the two displays differ.

So while there are cheap cards, and ones where the operating
temperature isn't in the danger zone, there are still the
odd issues.

As a result of looking at the reviewer comments for the
cards, I can't recommend anything :-( It is very much
a matter of tradeoffs, and deciding which is the least
annoying option.

Passively cooled cards, can have the cooler on the front
or on the back of the card. If on the front side,
the card will take up two slots (and possibly a third
if you want to leave an air channel for cooling). If
the passive cooler is on the backside, the cooler can
bump into the Northbridge heatsink - it all depends on
how massive the cooling structures are on the motherboard.
The benefit of a backside cooler, is the "air spill" from
the CPU fan, can help cool the card. But "air spill" only works
well, if the cooler is shaped to spill in the video card's
direction. Some expensive aftermarket coolers blow towards
the exhaust on the back of the case, and there isn't as much
air spill to work with.

Paul
 
tanstafl said:
xpost to ATI, Nvidia & pc-homebuilt for coverage

I'm starting to build a new system and I want to equip it with 22"
dual monitors in landscape/portrait 1680x1050 & 1050x1680. 2 Samsung
2243BWX monitors. Mobo is a GA-X48-DQ6 with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I'm
not a gamer (other than an occasional rousing round of Minesweeper:-)

I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat).
Click to expand...

(snip)

OK, you will want a minimum of 512MB of dedicated video RAM to start with.
And passive coolers are often larger, by necessity. If there is no fan,
then there needs to be more area exposed to the air to keep things cool.
(thus the heatsink is larger) Looking at the picture of your motherboard,
it looks like a passively cooled video card is going to block a PCI-Express
slot (either side) OR it is going to block a PCI slot.

I'd suggest you try a HD 4670:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102792
This one is a decent brand, has TWO DVI, and the cooler is small enough that
it shouldn't block a nearby slot. From reviews I've read, it's one of the
quieter coolers, too. Not necessarily quiet, but not as loud as some.

OH, and the power supply you want for that rig is a Corsair 750TX, or a BFG
ES-800. Both are more powerful than you need (you need about 600W)...but
it's hard to find quality power supplies in the ~600W range. Unless you
want a Earthwatts 650 which is great quality and butt ugly. :)
http://www.provantage.com/corsair-memory-cmpsu-750tx~7CSMC05E.htm
http://www.thenerds.net/BFG_TECHNOL..._src=14110944&ci_sku=ES800^~^BFG TECHNOLOGIES

Good luck, -Dave
 
tanstafl said:
I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat).
Click to expand...

Nvidia Quadro 285/290 do you? Loads on ebay, example: item 290272435970
on ebay.co.uk. Seems to tick all your boxes.

I would recommend using dual DVI. Your chosen resolution is pushing it
for VGA, and don't make the mistake of choosing a card with one DVI and
one VGA. I'm running a pair of identical 1600 x 1200 screens off such a
card and had to spend hours with the setup on the monitor running off
the VGA-out to get it to look anything like the DVI display.
 
Mike Tomlinson said:
Nvidia Quadro 285/290 do you? Loads on ebay, example: item 290272435970
on ebay.co.uk. Seems to tick all your boxes.

I would recommend using dual DVI. Your chosen resolution is pushing it
for VGA, and don't make the mistake of choosing a card with one DVI and
one VGA. I'm running a pair of identical 1600 x 1200 screens off such a
card and had to spend hours with the setup on the monitor running off
the VGA-out to get it to look anything like the DVI display.
Click to expand...
Have you thought about Matrox cards?
 
dave griffiths said:
Have you thought about Matrox cards?
Click to expand...

The G550 in PCI-e only supports 1280 x 1024 on the DVI output, which
doesn't meet the OP's requirements.
 
tanstafl said:
I'm starting to build a new system and I want to equip it with 22"
dual monitors in landscape/portrait 1680x1050 & 1050x1680. 2 Samsung
2243BWX monitors. Mobo is a GA-X48-DQ6 with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I'm
not a gamer (other than an occasional rousing round of Minesweeper:-)

I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat). I don't need HDMI or HDCP. Ability to read the DCC to
adapt to a change in the monitor pivot position is a plus.

Operational stability & thermal survivability is paramount - cost
isn't an issue. If ample operational envelope can't be gotten with
passive cooling, then a move upscale to a fan based card that can be
stable is something I'll have to accept - even if loss of the PCIe
slot is the price.
Click to expand...

I have 2 GA MoBos -- P35-DS4 and X48-DS4. Both have HIS brand ATI cards in
them -- 1 X1950 and 1 HD3850.

I like the HIS "Ice Q" cooling (now to v4 for newer cards) if you have to go
with a fan. However, they also have an "iSilence" line with Zalman fanless
cooling
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...escription=&Ntk=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=)
that may work for you.

Those come in 2600XT, 3450, 3650, and 4650, versions, all with 512 MB RAM and
dual DVI outputs. You'll have to research the various GPU capabilities a bit to
see what performance level you will need. To get the lower-power units you
sacrifice the 256-bit data bus, but that may not be important for your use. The
ATI Catalyst software also supports pivoting.
 
* dave griffiths:
Have you thought about Matrox cards?
Click to expand...

What for? The regular Matrox cards are way overpriced and can't do
anything a Geforce/Radeon can't do.

Benjamin
 
* tanstafl:
I'm starting to build a new system and I want to equip it with 22"
dual monitors in landscape/portrait 1680x1050 & 1050x1680. 2 Samsung
2243BWX monitors. Mobo is a GA-X48-DQ6 with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I'm
not a gamer (other than an occasional rousing round of Minesweeper:-)
Click to expand...

So nothing fancy. All that can be handled even by a low end GPU.
I'm hoping to identify a minimalist dual DVI (VGA w/dongle may be OK)
card that can use passive cooling (preserve use of the adjacent PCIe
x1 slot). I only need 16 bit color so maybe that will allow less RAM
(less heat).
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that modern cards/drivers are optimized for 32bit and thus
16bit can be slower. Despite that, even most low end gfx cards come with
128MB or more which is more than enough for your case. The
recommendation with 512MB or more is just plain nonsense.
I don't need HDMI or HDCP. Ability to read the DCC to
adapt to a change in the monitor pivot position is a plus.

Operational stability & thermal survivability is paramount - cost
isn't an issue.
Click to expand...

Then get one of the PNY Quadro cards. Nothing for overclockers but
really reliable and well-built cards with 3 year warranty. The lower
models aren't even really expensive.

A Quadro NVS 285 is probably a very good choice for your case and
fullfills all your requirements:
http://www.pny.com/products/quadro/nvs/285x16NvsPciEx.asp

Be sure to get the cable with 2xDVI. You don't want to connect 1680
monitors via analog VGA.
Note: don't assume I know precisely what I'm asking for - that would
be a mistake.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. You may not know which gfx card is suitable for you
but you delivered a precise and detailed description of the
environmental parameters which makes recommending a card really easy.

Benjamin
 
* Paul:
Your monitor has VGA and DVI connectors. That means, in a pinch,
you could use a card with one VGA and one DVI connector on it.
Click to expand...

It's not really a good idea to connect 22" monitors running at 1680x1050
via VGA, especially when considering that the analog signal quality of
most todays cards is very poor.

Benjamin
 
Benjamin Gawert said:
* tanstafl:


So nothing fancy. All that can be handled even by a low end GPU.


Keep in mind that modern cards/drivers are optimized for 32bit and thus
16bit can be slower. Despite that, even most low end gfx cards come with
128MB or more which is more than enough for your case. The recommendation
with 512MB or more is just plain nonsense.
Click to expand...

You're forgetting about rendering space. -Dave
 
* Dave:
You're forgetting about rendering space. -Dave
Click to expand...

What "rendering space"?

You can run 3D applications on two 1680x1050 displays with 128MB already
which still leaves a lot of room for textures or AA/AF. Recommending
512MB or more for 2D applications is just silly and IMHO shows a clear
lack of basic understanding of how gfx hardware works.

Benjamin
 
RAM does not produce much heat, and the amount of RAM on any modern
card is good enough for 24bpp at any resolution even with two
monitors.

Any passively cooled Dual-DVI card should do.

I have a Sapphire Ultimate Radeon X1650 Pro, which should fit your
bill. The heat sink is on the back side (where the CPU fan blows on
it), so the PCIe x1 slot below it should be usable.
Click to expand...

Newegg only carries the x1650Pro, not the Ultimate - but from the
single picture on the Sapphire site, that's a biiig radiator hanging
off the back. My board has PCIe slots fore & aft of the x16 slot so
I'd still wind up losing one. The Newegg x1650Pro has a slim fan that
appears to not rise beyond the bracket boundary - I could probably use
the adjacent slot with a low profile short card that wouldn't block
the airflow to the 1650 card fan. But the slimness probably means
shallow impeller blades - likely only 10mm deep which likely means a
high RPM. Have you or anyone else used this card? Is it a screamer?
I'm not overly sensitive to fan noise - except for high pitched
screamers @ 6Krpm and up.
Then buy several cards. Two of my passively cooled cards died after
several years of usage (one was a Voodoo 3 3000, the other a Radeon
9600). They were stable before they died.
Click to expand...

Good idea, and at the price point - why not.
Followups set to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati.
Click to expand...

Just curiosity - why the fup?
 
Your monitor has VGA and DVI connectors. That means, in a pinch,
you could use a card with one VGA and one DVI connector on it.
Click to expand...

Based on advice in other responses, I'm now looking solely at dual
DVI.
And that means a very cheap card could be used (your first card
will be a learning experience, where you learn that cheap is
not the same thing as good).
Click to expand...

Indeed a good lesson to learn - but you are about 3 decades too late.
There are many things I need to learn about video cards, but that
ain't one of them :-) As I indicated, cost isn't an issue. I was
pursuing lower end passive cards to preserve mobo slots and managing
overall case heat load for stability & long term reliability.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001254&Tpk=2243BWX

On DVI interfaces, 1680x1050 is covered by a "single link" connector.
See the Specifications section here, where there are some examples of
resolution options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

You can skim through the lists here, to find a gutless card.
And gutless should have low power consumption. Something with
a 64 bit memory interface on the GPU for example. HD 3450
or 8400 GS perhaps.

http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/
http://www.gpureview.com

Next, you can use the Newegg Advanced Search. Set interface to
PCI Express 2.0 if you want. Set "Cooler" near the bottom of
the list, to "fanless". It claims there are 143 cards (some
of which could be PCI Express 1.0 version cards).

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=48&name=Desktop-Graphics-Video-Cards

When I started reviewing the cards, virtually all of them had
issues of one sort or another. On one card, a guy said that
running two monitors in dual mode, the "whites" were blown
out on one display. That means something was wrong with
the contrast/brightness/gamma or some other setting, which
made the two displays differ.

So while there are cheap cards, and ones where the operating
temperature isn't in the danger zone, there are still the
odd issues.

As a result of looking at the reviewer comments for the
cards, I can't recommend anything :-( It is very much
a matter of tradeoffs, and deciding which is the least
annoying option.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for the legwork - I didn't expect that. I
narrowed the search to dual DVI. Came up with 2 items that I'll look
at closer:

HIS 260 base @ $100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161203
HIS 1050 base @ $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161202

As you noted, the reviews are a mixed bag.
Passively cooled cards, can have the cooler on the front
or on the back of the card. If on the front side,
the card will take up two slots (and possibly a third
if you want to leave an air channel for cooling). If
the passive cooler is on the backside, the cooler can
bump into the Northbridge heatsink - it all depends on
how massive the cooling structures are on the motherboard.
The benefit of a backside cooler, is the "air spill" from
the CPU fan, can help cool the card. But "air spill" only works
well, if the cooler is shaped to spill in the video card's
direction. Some expensive aftermarket coolers blow towards
the exhaust on the back of the case, and there isn't as much
air spill to work with.

Paul
Click to expand...

It seems a distinct possibility that I'll not find a fanless design
that spares the other slots. If so, I'll just bite the bullet and
sacrifice a slot by going somewhat upscale to a well designed fan
model. The HIS ICE models that force the air through a card plenum
and exhaust it out the back seem intriguing. If I do go to a low side
mid-range card, it would obviously be over powered for my needs. Can
these cards be underclocked (& maybe undervolted) to reduce the heat
signature and perhaps improve the MTTF?
 
* Paul:


It's not really a good idea to connect 22" monitors running at 1680x1050
via VGA, especially when considering that the analog signal quality of
most todays cards is very poor.

Benjamin
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I was mildly concerned. It's difficult to
find hard & fast rules for that kind of thing - maybe because there
are no hard & fast rules. But since it seems 1680x1050 resolution is
marginal for VGA, I don't want to mess with it. Dual DVI it is.
 
(snip)

OK, you will want a minimum of 512MB of dedicated video RAM to start with.
And passive coolers are often larger, by necessity. If there is no fan,
then there needs to be more area exposed to the air to keep things cool.
(thus the heatsink is larger) Looking at the picture of your motherboard,
it looks like a passively cooled video card is going to block a PCI-Express
slot (either side) OR it is going to block a PCI slot.

I'd suggest you try a HD 4670:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102792
This one is a decent brand, has TWO DVI, and the cooler is small enough that
it shouldn't block a nearby slot. From reviews I've read, it's one of the
quieter coolers, too. Not necessarily quiet, but not as loud as some.
Click to expand...

Looks interesting. My only concern is that the blades are probably
only 10mm or so deep. Skinny blades like that have to be spun fast to
move much air generally resulting in a high pitched screech. I'm not
particularly sensitive to normal fan noise - becomes a part of
background noise that you quickly ignore. But a banshee is always in
your face. Can someone who uses that card characterize the sound?
 
Nvidia Quadro 285/290 do you? Loads on ebay, example: item 290272435970
on ebay.co.uk. Seems to tick all your boxes.

I would recommend using dual DVI. Your chosen resolution is pushing it
for VGA, and don't make the mistake of choosing a card with one DVI and
one VGA. I'm running a pair of identical 1600 x 1200 screens off such a
card and had to spend hours with the setup on the monitor running off
the VGA-out to get it to look anything like the DVI display.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That makes two anti VGA votes. More than enough to make dual
DVI a firm requirement.
 
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