new computer question

  • Thread starter Thread starter RB
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R

RB

Here's an easy one.....

I need to go buy a general purpose pc (full package to include mouse,
keyboard, flat screen monitor), for light duty office email and word
processing. I have to get three competitive bids.

What features/specs, etc, should I be looking for (in addition to Win XP for
OS) to be able to readily find an economical package? I figure going to
Wal Wart, Circuit City, etc, but want to be comparing apples to apples.
 
Smarter and easier to visit Dell.com or HP.com. Do your
homework there. Get more options. Typically pay less.

Some store salesman are good, patient, and deserve your
business. Others are total scam artists selling all kinds of
nonsense that sounds good. For example, if he recommends
anything from Monster, or cables with gold plated connectors,
then run for the hills. If any recommend a plug-in protector,
just say no.

Only option I strongly recommend is the optical mouse over a
mechanical mouse.

No one can say what features you 'need'. You have not
provided anywhere near sufficient detail on all tasks that
computer will do today and in the future.
 
That's actually part of what I do where I work, I work for a non-profit orginization and I do research on what I can get for the least amount of money. I'd say at bare minimum you would want 512MB of memory, this is because you can do XP with 128, but it's slow as hell, it works fine with 256, but if all your doing is light office work 512 should keep you going without any upgrades for a while. You will want a hard drive that is at least 30GB because you want to back up your data, you also NEED some sort of backup media, zip drive, CD-Burner, USB hard drive, you will need this for again data backup and then all the other stuff is just pretty standard, your best bet is to buy at bestbuy or a computer store online, but I strongly sugest 512MB of memory, 30GB hard drive, and backup media.
 
What is your budget? I would suggest a Dell www.dell.com
Any of their computers will do what you have described for
very little money. The flat panel will be the most
expensive part, and you should get a 17" to do your work,
after all you'll be spending your time looking at it all the
time.

You can also try Gateway www.gateway.com but they are having
some trouble and have had to close retail stores around the
country, on-line ordering is so much more attractive.
Gateway has also just bought eMachines.

Is this for an office or a home and will it be on a LAN ?

Don't expect the applications software to be included for
free, applications are what makes a computer useful.
Windows XP is just the operating system, to do word
processing, mailings, desktop publishing, spreadsheets and
databases you must purchase the programs you want. Office
is the standard program and is very powerful.

If you are going to have the computer at a business I would
suggest that you get Windows XP Professional because it is
designed for extra security and networking.

With software, the computer and applications you'll spend
about $1,000. You should consider a scanner and printer
also, there are models that combine these in one box, but
you might be better served with dedicated units.

You might want to check with a local computer shop that can
build and support your system if it will be a business,
providing loaner printers and such if necessary.


| Here's an easy one.....
|
| I need to go buy a general purpose pc (full package to
include mouse,
| keyboard, flat screen monitor), for light duty office
email and word
| processing. I have to get three competitive bids.
|
| What features/specs, etc, should I be looking for (in
addition to Win XP for
| OS) to be able to readily find an economical package? I
figure going to
| Wal Wart, Circuit City, etc, but want to be comparing
apples to apples.
|
|
 
A simple benchmark for any acceptable machine. Do they
provide comprehensive diagnostics for their products - for
free? If not, then remove it from a list of acceptable
products.

But Gateway was even more appalling. For example, memory may
be sold in two chip or nine chip versions. BIOS must read data
from SIMM and configure computer for either type. That means,
for example, a 256Mb SIMM of either type should work in the
machine. Or the manufacturer should make it clearly obvious
which type does and does not work. Last Gateway would not
work with the two chip SIMM. Gateway customer service could
not even say same; instead blaming me from not buying memory
from them. Discovered: BIOS only understood the nine chip
version. BIOS upgrade even would not permit the two chip type
to work. Gateway customer support instead lies to me about a
few things related to this problem (mostly due to technical
ignorance). Went to crucial.com to get an honest technical
answer that Gateway could not provide.

Take Gateway off of any list of acceptable products. What I
saw years ago now explains why even the Country Stores may be
closing. A company that cannot be technically honest and
transparent today will not be a good computer company
tomorrow. Gateway does not even provide diagnostics for their
machines - the most damning fact.
 
IMO going to Walmart or Circuit City are not very good choices. Circuit City
over charges, and Walmart has low quality. Don't go to Best Buy either, for
the same reasons. I suggest retail outlets such as MicroCenter or Frys. Also
take a look at eBay or online companies such as Provantage or Newegg. Most
important, figure out exactly what you want in advance (HD capacity, CPU
speed, operating system, amount of RAM, peripheral devices such as a CD-RW
or a DVD recorder). In general, since you intend on using Windows XP, I
suggest 512 MB of RAM, at least a 2 GHZ CPU, and at least a 40 GB HD
(Western Digital is a good brand), and a power supply of at least 350 watts.
Also, for your office work, Microsoft Office is a good choice. It includes
Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Powerpoint.

By the way, desktop PCs are usually less expensive for the same capability
than laptops.

Good luck on your search.
 
Well said TOM, GATEWAY sucks big time...
-----Original Message-----
A simple benchmark for any acceptable machine. Do they
provide comprehensive diagnostics for their products - for
free? If not, then remove it from a list of acceptable
products.

But Gateway was even more appalling. For example, memory may
be sold in two chip or nine chip versions. BIOS must read data
from SIMM and configure computer for either type. That means,
for example, a 256Mb SIMM of either type should work in the
machine. Or the manufacturer should make it clearly obvious
which type does and does not work. Last Gateway would not
work with the two chip SIMM. Gateway customer service could
not even say same; instead blaming me from not buying memory
from them. Discovered: BIOS only understood the nine chip
version. BIOS upgrade even would not permit the two chip type
to work. Gateway customer support instead lies to me about a
few things related to this problem (mostly due to technical
ignorance). Went to crucial.com to get an honest technical
answer that Gateway could not provide.

Take Gateway off of any list of acceptable products. What I
saw years ago now explains why even the Country Stores may be
closing. A company that cannot be technically honest and
transparent today will not be a good computer company
tomorrow. Gateway does not even provide diagnostics for their
machines - the most damning fact.


.
Click to expand...
 
RB said:
Here's an easy one.....

I need to go buy a general purpose pc (full package to include mouse,
keyboard, flat screen monitor), for light duty office email and word
processing. I have to get three competitive bids.

What features/specs, etc, should I be looking for (in addition to Win XP for
OS) to be able to readily find an economical package? I figure going to
Wal Wart, Circuit City, etc, but want to be comparing apples to
Click to expand...
apples.

Support your local businesses.......It is too hard to find out what
parts these bigbox stores have installed......Support; which is
better drive across town or call to India.....
 
The computer companies, Dell included, are hiring out
tech support overseas putting techs here out of work. (If the companies
here keep sending work overseas soon there will be no one here to buy
anything since no one will be working and they will wonder why sells have
dropped, eh.) When you call for support you may get a reading from a book
and two techs will give you two different answers for the same problem (one
may void your warranty, that's how bad it can be). There are horror stories
at PC World and various other magazines and web sites about this. You may
get someone whose English is so bad that you can't even understand them. It
isn't what it used to be, that's why I build my own and have for years (it
is easier to return one bad component).

You may want to try a local computer store (mom and pop variety) since,
lately, they have been getting better scores (PC World). Make sure that
they have been in business for a good while and that they have a good
standing with the BBB. Make sure you get everything in writing and what the
length of the warranty and what the warranty contains. Make sure of their
support. You can pick and choose your components this way - there on site
and it is generally cheaper. Some will give you a discount if you are
non-profit.

My opinion only!
 
One major problem with that discount (mom and pop) store is
that their power supplies may be missing essential functions
that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who
believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy power
supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who would
protect the technically naive buy inferior products from
little computer store; whose people never even learned what
those essential power supply functions are.

But again. How to know that little computer store does not
provide a good product. Where are the comprehensive
diagnostics for the system? Not only is power supply missing
essential functions (that could destroy other computer
components), but the little computer store does not provide
comprehensive diagnostics. Just more reasons why the Dell
would be a better product.
 
For example only, there is a computer store here in Wichita
that will build you a computer from the components you
select. They will support it. You can select the case,
power supply, mobo, CPU, what ever you want. You can buy
the parts from them and do it yourself or they will put it
together for you. They seem to be pretty sharp and the shop
area is clean and neat. If you don't know what you want or
need they will help you with the project.

Their prices did not seem out of line, in fact they offered
to order a mobo for me and there price was no higher than
New Egg for the same product.

I hope they are still business when I can afford to upgrade
this computer and build a few more for the family.


| One major problem with that discount (mom and pop) store
is
| that their power supplies may be missing essential
functions
| that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who
| believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy
power
| supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who would
| protect the technically naive buy inferior products from
| little computer store; whose people never even learned
what
| those essential power supply functions are.
|
| But again. How to know that little computer store does
not
| provide a good product. Where are the comprehensive
| diagnostics for the system? Not only is power supply
missing
| essential functions (that could destroy other computer
| components), but the little computer store does not
provide
| comprehensive diagnostics. Just more reasons why the Dell
| would be a better product.
|
| mouseyface wrote:
| > The computer companies, Dell included, are hiring out
| > tech support overseas putting techs here out of work.
(If the
| > companies here keep sending work overseas soon there
will be no
| > one here to buy anything since no one will be working
and they
| > will wonder why sells have dropped, eh.) When you call
for
| > support you may get a reading from a book and two techs
will give
| > you two different answers for the same problem (one may
void your
| > warranty, that's how bad it can be). There are horror
stories
| > at PC World and various other magazines and web sites
about this.
| > You may get someone whose English is so bad that you
can't even
| > understand them. It isn't what it used to be, that's
why I build
| > my own and have for years (it is easier to return one
bad
| > component).
| >
| > You may want to try a local computer store (mom and pop
variety)
| > since, lately, they have been getting better scores (PC
World).
| > Make sure that they have been in business for a good
while and
| > that they have a good standing with the BBB. Make sure
you get
| > everything in writing and what the length of the
warranty and what
| > the warranty contains. Make sure of their support. You
can pick
| > and choose your components this way - there on site and
it is
| > generally cheaper. Some will give you a discount if you
are
| > non-profit.
| >
| > My opinion only!
 
spelling correction
in message | For example only, there is a computer store here in
Wichita
| that will build you a computer from the components you
| select. They will support it. You can select the case,
| power supply, mobo, CPU, what ever you want. You can buy
| the parts from them and do it yourself or they will put it
| together for you. They seem to be pretty sharp and the
shop
| area is clean and neat. If you don't know what you want
or
| need they will help you with the project.
|
| Their prices did not seem out of line, in fact they
offered
| to order a mobo for me and their price was no higher than
| New Egg for the same product.
|
| I hope they are still business when I can afford to
upgrade
| this computer and build a few more for the family.
|
|
| | | One major problem with that discount (mom and pop)
store
| is
| | that their power supplies may be missing essential
| functions
| | that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who
| | believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy
| power
| | supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who
would
| | protect the technically naive buy inferior products from
| | little computer store; whose people never even learned
| what
| | those essential power supply functions are.
| |
| | But again. How to know that little computer store
does
| not
| | provide a good product. Where are the comprehensive
| | diagnostics for the system? Not only is power supply
| missing
| | essential functions (that could destroy other computer
| | components), but the little computer store does not
| provide
| | comprehensive diagnostics. Just more reasons why the
Dell
| | would be a better product.
| |
| | mouseyface wrote:
| | > The computer companies, Dell included, are hiring out
| | > tech support overseas putting techs here out of work.
| (If the
| | > companies here keep sending work overseas soon there
| will be no
| | > one here to buy anything since no one will be working
| and they
| | > will wonder why sells have dropped, eh.) When you
call
| for
| | > support you may get a reading from a book and two
techs
| will give
| | > you two different answers for the same problem (one
may
| void your
| | > warranty, that's how bad it can be). There are horror
| stories
| | > at PC World and various other magazines and web sites
| about this.
| | > You may get someone whose English is so bad that you
| can't even
| | > understand them. It isn't what it used to be, that's
| why I build
| | > my own and have for years (it is easier to return one
| bad
| | > component).
| | >
| | > You may want to try a local computer store (mom and
pop
| variety)
| | > since, lately, they have been getting better scores
(PC
| World).
| | > Make sure that they have been in business for a good
| while and
| | > that they have a good standing with the BBB. Make
sure
| you get
| | > everything in writing and what the length of the
| warranty and what
| | > the warranty contains. Make sure of their support.
You
| can pick
| | > and choose your components this way - there on site
and
| it is
| | > generally cheaper. Some will give you a discount if
you
| are
| | > non-profit.
| | >
| | > My opinion only!
|
|
 
I totally disagree on two counts.

One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply that lacks
some "essential functions". Sure, some power supplies are under powered (100
watts, for example) or are of poor quality, but lacking essential functions?
No.

Two, the people at every Mom and Pop computer store I have ever visited
possess far more technical knowledge than their counterparts at the larger
computer outlets - who are almost always just clerks having little knowledge
and - at most - possessing only a script to answer customers questions.
Further, the Mom and Pop stores are flexible enough to give the customer
exactly what he wants, including component brand selection and
non-proprietary hardware. Guess who sells the low quality, proprietary,
difficult to upgrade systems to unsuspecting customers? Ever heard of
E-Machines, Packard Bell, or Compaq? These brands do not come from Mom and
Pop stores.

And why the emphasis on Intel? Amd is another perfectly good option.
 
I find power supplies often missing essential functions.
Missing functions are most common in clone computers. Intel
had even stated what specific functions must exist in a power
supply (if AMD provides such technical specs for power
supplies, then please provide the URL).

Ballpark numbers - a power supply selling for $20 or $30 is
routinely missing those essential functions. Power supplies
that include those essential functions typically sell in the
$60 and $70 region. This does not say all $60+ power supplies
are properly built. But those $20 and $30 supplies are always
missing essential functions.

Again, this is old, simple, basic, techical knowledge. If a
computer assembler does not even know this, then his job is
'prime ready' to be outsourced to Asia. Unfortunately too
many computer 'experts' don't even know the essential
functions that must be in a power supply - which is why Asian
manufacturers have found a very lucritive market in N America
for inferior but low priced power supplies.

Demonstrate one essential function in power supplies: short
together all the DC voltage outputs and power up. Power
supply must not be damaged. Again this was even a defacto
standard 30 years ago. Intel specs even say how big the wire
must be to short all outputs together (please provide the AMD
spec?). This simple test often destroys many unacceptable
supplies routinely found in clone computers. Why? I would
bet many computer assembler here have always assumed this test
would destroy power supplies - only because they have seen a
shorted power supply fail. IOW they never first learned basic
electrical knowledge which is one reason why jobs end up in
Asia. These same people would also recommend that computer
from a 'mon & pop' store when the only spec used to select a
supply was dollars.

Again, a ballpark measure of any acceptable computer - does
the manufacturer provide comprehensive diagnostics. Gateway
does not. Those discount computer assembler stores do not.
Diagnostics are a simple benchmark to find computers built on
an engineering basis - not built using a bean counter
mentality. Too many are so ill informed as to think every
power supply sold to clone computer assemblers contains
essential functions. Unfortunately too many don't even know
what those essential functions are.

BTW there is no relationship between watts and quality.
Many naive computer assemblers assoicate more watts with more
quality. Some of the worst quality power supply are the
grossly oversized 500+ watt supplies. Higher quality supplies
in brand name computers are on the order of 250 and 350 watts.

But lets learn more. Ok Papa. What are the essential
functions inside a power supply? Please demonstrate knowledge
gleaned from those mom and pop computer stores. What are the
essential functions that power supplies had even 30 years ago?
 
Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a
bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too
credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know.

By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email
address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie".
 
w_tom said:
One major problem with that discount (mom and pop) store is
that their power supplies may be missing essential functions
that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who
believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy power
supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who would
protect the technically naive buy inferior products from
little computer store; whose people never even learned what
those essential power supply functions are.
Click to expand...

What unknown functions can be missing from a power supply
if one reads the label. You sound like a person that wants to
put forth no effort and wants someone else to do things for you.
 
Papa said:
Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a
bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too
credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know.

By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email
address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie".
Click to expand...

These NG's are overran with know-it-all newbies with their proprietary
boxen.
 
Since Papa did not like specs from Intel, then he was asked
to provide a URL for AMD power supply spec. He did not. I am
still waiting for his URL. But based upon the technical merit
of his last post, I doubt he has ever seen a power supply
specification.

Exampled was one essential power supply function. It was
intentionally left for Papa to name this or any other
essential power supply function:
... short together all the DC voltage outputs and power up.
Power supply must not be damaged.
Click to expand...

Apparently Papa does not even recognize the example as a
essential function of all power supplies. Instead he
disparages:
Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too
credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know.
Click to expand...

Papa did not even know that some power supplies don't even
meet defacto standards of 30 years ago. Provided: that one
essential power supply function. From Intel specs:
3.2.4 Power Limit
Under shrot circuit or overload conditions, no output shall
exceed 240 VA unde any conditions including single component
fault conditions, per IEC 60950 requirements.
...
3.4.2 Short-circuit Protection
... The power supply shall shut down and latch off for shorting
the +3.3 VDC, +5 VDC, or +12 VDC rails to return or any other
rail. Shorts between the +5 VSB shall not cause any damage to
the power supply. ... The power supply shall be capable of
withstanding a continuous short-circuit to the output without
damage or overstress to the unit under the input conditions
specified in Sections 3.1.
Click to expand...

Papa is correct. I did not name the essential function. I
simply exampled an essential function and let Papa name that
function. Instead Papa did not even recognize it as an
essential function - and posted:
One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply
that lacks some "essential functions".
Click to expand...

Papa does not even know of essential functions that must be
in a computer power supply; even when one was exampled right
before him. Unfortunately he is too typical of the many who
recommend computers and computer components. Too many
computer 'experts' don't even know what basic and essential
functions must be included in a power supply. But they would
even recommend a power supply anyway. No wonder jobs are
leaving America to where people first learn technology before
becoming an 'expert'.

A benchmark for identifying the superior computer
manufacturers - they provide comprehensive diagnostics. This
benchmark eliminates many clone computer assemblers who too
often don't even know of essential functions required in a
power supply.

Provided was an example of an essential power supply
function. Papa could not name it - or any other essential
function. Other essential functions would even be provided in
box with a minimally acceptable power supply. But specs are
not provided with supplies that are missing essential
functions. All Papa had to do is list one item from that spec
sheet. He could not even do that - which is why he 'attacked
the messenger'.

RB: A simple benchmark (comprehensive diagnostics) was
provided. Furthermore, another has been used to demonstrate
that many recommendation come without even basic technical
knowledge. Can they even name one essential function of an
ATX computer power supply? If not, then suspect the
credibility of their recommendation. Good luck in your quest
for a better machine.
 
You will note that I mentioned that YOU choose the components that you want
in your computer. What part of that did you miss? That includes the power
supply of your choice.

http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/dellconverter.html . The large
companies use proprietary components, try replacing a power supply and fry
your board. If they have changed, I am unaware of it but then, I really
don't care since I don't purchase them, eh. I do know that PC Power and
Cooling lists Dell power supplies separately. You really need to do more
research before you speak. http://www.hardwareguys.com/dellwarn.html
http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/power_supplies/selector/
 
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