.Net is awesome

[Guest]

I've been a classic VB developer for the past 6 years. I've only been
developing in .Net (using C#) for the past 2. I'm currently studying for the
MCSD and I already have a couple exams under my belt. VS.Net is the
technology I've chosen to move forward with due to my history with MS, but
there more I use it there more I think it is hands down the best technology
to be programming in. I messed around with Java a bit and a bunch of other
languages, but even with how complex .Net can get, I find that in the end it
all makes sense. Yes I have gripes with it, but nothing is perfect.

Can anyone make the argument (other than legacy development or personal
hatred of MS) of why should you any other technology?

 

[For Your Eyes Only]

I've been a classic VB developer for the past 6 years. I've only been
developing in .Net (using C#) for the past 2. I'm currently studying for the
MCSD and I already have a couple exams under my belt. VS.Net is the
technology I've chosen to move forward with due to my history with MS, but
there more I use it there more I think it is hands down the best technology
to be programming in. I messed around with Java a bit and a bunch of other
languages, but even with how complex .Net can get, I find that in the end it
all makes sense. Yes I have gripes with it, but nothing is perfect.

Can anyone make the argument (other than legacy development or personal
hatred of MS) of why should you any other technology?

I totally agree. Especially since .net is an ecma standard, and is
implemented in Linux. I have struggled to do the same things in Java
that I do with ease in VS.NET and .NET

Creating a web service is a piece of cake.But in Java? In an IDE that
is fast and easy to use and which doesn't cost $5000 ?

..Net is the cat's pajamas.

I like doing mono on Suse and using the gtksharp toolkit with c# more
than ever! And because Linux libraries and technology is so far ahead
of Microsoft, it blends the best of both.

For example, I can create a complete UI defined by XML using Glade ( a
gtk designer ) and then change the UI by changing just the XML! That's
two years ahead of AXML ! And, of course, automatic layout ( packing )
is well developed here ( MS just announced it ).

Here's a sweet tutorial on Glade/gtksharp/c#/.net:


http://www.codefez.com/Default.aspx?tabid=29&newsType=ArticleView&articleId=43

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

I've been a classic VB developer for the past 6 years. I've only been
developing in .Net (using C#) for the past 2. I'm currently studying for the
MCSD and I already have a couple exams under my belt. VS.Net is the
technology I've chosen to move forward with due to my history with MS, but
there more I use it there more I think it is hands down the best technology
to be programming in. I messed around with Java a bit and a bunch of other
languages, but even with how complex .Net can get, I find that in the end it
all makes sense. Yes I have gripes with it, but nothing is perfect.

Can anyone make the argument (other than legacy development or personal
hatred of MS) of why should you any other technology?

Yes - if you need multi-platform development, Java is a much safer bet.
Although there is Mono, and a few similar projects exist, there's the
lurking potential shadow of an MS lawsuit trying to stamp out the
project, and the Mono project is likely to have various inconsistencies
with the MS implementation (as well as often being behind it in terms
of class libraries etc).

None of this is knocking the technical competence of the Mono
developers - they're doing a great job, and it's great for those who
want to use C# as their development on Linux, but I think there's a
wider scope for platform incompatibilty with .NET than with Java.

(I prefer C# as a language, and for the most part prefer .NET as a
runtime, to Java as a language and platform respectively, although
there are warts on all sides.)

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

I totally agree. Especially since .net is an ecma standard, and is
implemented in Linux.

No - the CLR is an ECMA standard. There's a big difference - it's easy
to use parts of .NET which aren't standardised, and assume they'll work
the same on Mono as they do in .NET itself, only to be disappointed.

I have struggled to do the same things in Java
that I do with ease in VS.NET and .NET

Likewise - but likewise the other way round, as well.

Creating a web service is a piece of cake.But in Java? In an IDE that
is fast and easy to use and which doesn't cost $5000 ?

Eclipse with an appropriate free plug-in?

(There aren't many free .NET IDEs with refactoring, as far as I'm aware
- something I'd use much more often than web service creation. I'm glad
that VS.NET 2005 finally has refactoring - it should have been in
VS.NET 2002.)

 

[For Your Eyes Only]

None of this is knocking the technical competence of the Mono
developers - they're doing a great job, and it's great for those who
want to use C# as their development on Linux, but I think there's a
wider scope for platform incompatibilty with .NET than with Java.

I don't agree.

I think the main incompatibilities come from using the WinForms assembly.

If you use a more global toolkit, such as gtksharp, then it's totally
cross platform.

( The reason java, as you say, is more crossplatform, is that it offers
Swing, with automatic layout and packing, that can be translated between
the win32/gdi and X windows wms ).

(I prefer C# as a language, and for the most part prefer .NET as a
runtime, to Java as a language and platform respectively, although
there are warts on all sides.)

java is really dependent on the fortunes of Sun.

and they've been floundering for years now.

if Microsoft goes belly up, there's always the open source community
which will carry .net

 

[For Your Eyes Only]

Jon Skeet [C# MVP] wrote:

Eclipse with an appropriate free plug-in?

Ok, I'll bite.

I've used Eclipse, and I like it.

But when ever I go to find these /plugins/ it takes a bunch of arm
twisting to find out what's what.

Have *you* personally, used a plugin in Eclipse to create a web service
and is it as easy as in studio ?

(There aren't many free .NET IDEs with refactoring, as far as I'm aware
- something I'd use much more often than web service creation. I'm glad
that VS.NET 2005 finally has refactoring - it should have been in
VS.NET 2002.)

What is /refactoring/ ?

 

[Aaron Smith]

java is really dependent on the fortunes of Sun.

and they've been floundering for years now.

if Microsoft goes belly up, there's always the open source community
which will carry .net

How would the open source community carry .Net? Through Mono?

 

[Guest]

I wasn't even considering cross-platform development which I don't even think
Java can lay claims to perfecting yet. Even with Mono, I don't we'll ever
see real cross platform Nirvana. I would like to see MS sponsor or partner
with companies who will put the .Net framework and CLR on other platforms,
but I'm concerned with developing solutions now.

The VS IDE is great but I've had success using just notepad and recently
SharpDevelop. I wouldn't recommend it for a production environment, but it's
great for toying around at home.

Does anyone know of any companies large or small that just use .Net and
Windows servers to run their businesses?

I hear people say it is impossible to run a business completely on one
platform, but I don't hear many reasons why not? What's to stop a company
from ditching all the cross platform worries and just sticking with one
technology? If that seems nearsighted, why?

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Ok, I'll bite.

I've used Eclipse, and I like it.

But when ever I go to find these /plugins/ it takes a bunch of arm
twisting to find out what's what.

I've usually found it pretty easy, personally.

Have *you* personally, used a plugin in Eclipse to create a web service
and is it as easy as in studio ?

No - but then I've never needed to write a web service in Java. A quick
search on the web found a number of plugins related to web services,
however, including one which claimed to write the stub code for you.

What is /refactoring/ ?

Automated code generation and manipulation. For instance, renaming a
class, a variable or a method and all references to it; extracting code
from one method to form another one called by the original one, etc.
It's an incredibly powerful tool for creating maintainable software.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

I don't agree.

I think the main incompatibilities come from using the WinForms assembly.

That's certainly *one* incompatibility - but think about it, all Sun's
JVMs, including their class libraries, are built from a common source
tree with a few platform-specific parts. Don't you think that fact
alone gives a wider scope for platform incompatibility between .NET and
Mono than between two Sun JVMs?

If you use a more global toolkit, such as gtksharp, then it's totally
cross platform.

Until you rely on something else which doesn't work quite the same in
Mono as in .NET, or perhaps isn't even there in Mono. The Mono team
have done a great job, but it's never going to be fully compatible.
Note the answer to FAQ 57:

<quote>
Yes, Mono can run applications developed with the Microsoft .NET
Framework on UNIX. There are a few caveats to keep in mind: Mono has
not been completed yet, so a few API calls might be missing; And in
some cases the Mono behavior *might* be incorrect.

( The reason java, as you say, is more crossplatform, is that it offers
Swing, with automatic layout and packing, that can be translated between
the win32/gdi and X windows wms ).


java is really dependent on the fortunes of Sun.

Do you really think IBM would let Java die just like that? They have a
huge stake in Java's future, as do Oracle.

and they've been floundering for years now.

if Microsoft goes belly up, there's always the open source community
which will carry .net

There have been open source JVMs for ages, and alternative mainstream
JVMs. I find it amusing that you think the OSS community could carry
..NET, but they couldn't carry Java, despite the fact that there is
*much* more Java activity in the OSS community than .NET activity.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

I wasn't even considering cross-platform development which I don't even think
Java can lay claims to perfecting yet.

It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. As people say, it's a case of
"write once, test everywhere" - just like Windows development is.
However, in my experience you can fairly easily write apps -
particularly server-side apps - which require *testing* everywhere but
quite possibly no actual *changes* to get to run everywhere.

Even with Mono, I don't we'll ever
see real cross platform Nirvana. I would like to see MS sponsor or partner
with companies who will put the .Net framework and CLR on other platforms,
but I'm concerned with developing solutions now.

Exactly. I'd be happy just to see a statement of intent from MS that
they're not going to try to clobber Mono as soon as it takes root.

The VS IDE is great but I've had success using just notepad and recently
SharpDevelop. I wouldn't recommend it for a production environment, but it's
great for toying around at home.

Sure - I use a lightweight text editor (rather better than notepad
for short programs for newsgroup posts.

Does anyone know of any companies large or small that just use .Net and
Windows servers to run their businesses?

I wouldn't want to name any names, but I'm sure there are plenty which
do exactly that.

I hear people say it is impossible to run a business completely on one
platform, but I don't hear many reasons why not? What's to stop a company
from ditching all the cross platform worries and just sticking with one
technology? If that seems nearsighted, why?

There's very little to stop one company doing that, but if you're
writing server-side software as an ISV, you may well want to make your
offering available on multiple platforms. The company I worked for
until recently (well, I officially work for them until Friday) did
exactly that. Our code (doing various things, including one of the
earliest WAP mail connectors) mostly ran on any Java 1.3+ platform, and
we tested it on HPUX, Tru64, Solaris, Linux and various flavours of
Windows. Most of our customers were on Solaris or Windows, I believe,
but if we'd been Windows-only we'd certainly have lost contracts.

For in-house development, and indeed for other markets, it's *much*
less of an issue. It *is* a real issue for some development though.

 

[Relaxin]

Does anyone know of any companies large or small that just use .Net and

Windows servers to run their businesses?

The company I work for. (can't reveal their name.)

 

[Developwebsites]

Can anyone make the argument (other than legacy development or personal
hatred of MS) of why should you any other technology?

well, yes, them Indians, Russians, and Chinese are getting $2/hr(if even that)
while dumb and dumber Americanos are stuffing themselfs full of MS & Comptia
certs worth less than toilet paper.

 

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Jon Skeet [C# MVP] wrote:

Exactly. I'd be happy just to see a statement of intent from MS that
they're not going to try to clobber Mono as soon as it takes root.

Why would they?

It makes it easier to port apps to Linux/Mac

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Why would they?

It makes it easier to port apps to Linux/Mac

Why would they clobber Mono, or why would they make the statement? The
reason for clobbering Mono is exactly what you said - it makes it
easier to port apps to Linux/Mac.