Need video card help

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housemouse

I had a old AMD 1.1 Ghz machine with ATI Radeon 9200 128 MB AGP card,
and decided I wanted to get a new PC to play Quake 4 and similar games
on.

Sales dude at big retail chain told me that Emachines T6216 they had
for sale had an AGA slot.
I foolishly believed him (my mistake, I should have checked online
first or something), and was expecting to get this box and put my ATI
card in. Nope.

Well, the world has moved on - and this machine has PCI express, but no
AGP. It's specs are :

Athlon 64 3200+
512 MD DDR SDRAM
nVidia geforce 6100 (intergrated)

Now I'm thinking that my old ATI card probably wouldn't be a lot better
that the nVidia card built in to this machine. Is that true? The
intergrated 6100 is eating up 128 MB RAM from the system, the way it
seems to me.

Quake 4 at the lowest settings is unplayable with the stock machine, so
I'm wondering what would be the best way to get it playable.

1) Return machine I just bought and build one. I priced out components,
and it didn't seem like I could build anything better for what this
system cost me ($500 + tax - $50 mail in rebate). I'd need to keep my
old 1.1 Gz system up and running, so no taking parts from it other than
the video card.

2) Buy a PCI express video card and disable onboard one. Is 256 MB
needed to get decent performance on this game? What's a good PCI
express card to get?

3) Buy more RAM to compensate for the usage by the onboard card.

I'd say my total budget for the whole deal is $750 or so. Right now I'm
about $475 or so in (assuming I mail in that rebate). For another $275
or so what can I do to get Quake 4 playable at a fairly high setting?
 
I had a old AMD 1.1 Ghz machine with ATI Radeon 9200 128 MB AGP card,
and decided I wanted to get a new PC to play Quake 4 and similar games
on.

Sales dude at big retail chain told me that Emachines T6216 they had
for sale had an AGA slot.
I foolishly believed him (my mistake, I should have checked online
first or something), and was expecting to get this box and put my ATI
card in. Nope.

Well, the world has moved on - and this machine has PCI express, but no
AGP. It's specs are :

Athlon 64 3200+
512 MD DDR SDRAM
nVidia geforce 6100 (intergrated)

Now I'm thinking that my old ATI card probably wouldn't be a lot better
that the nVidia card built in to this machine. Is that true?
Click to expand...

I don't know but it may not better as even if your card were
a little faster at old games (which it might be), it's not
good enough for typical modern 3D games, would be a severe
bottleneck.

Unfortunately, it's also possible the eMachine has an
underwhelming power supply and cooling capability so it
might not be ideal for a better video card either.

Regardless, you're better off in the long run to have PCI
Express.

The
intergrated 6100 is eating up 128 MB RAM from the system, the way it
seems to me.
Click to expand...

Yes that will effect gaming far more than more basic windows
uses. You should consider adding another 512MB module-
hopefully the 512MB already in it is only one module rather
than 2 x 256MB.

Quake 4 at the lowest settings is unplayable with the stock machine, so
I'm wondering what would be the best way to get it playable.
Click to expand...

Buy a PCI Express video card, of course.


1) Return machine I just bought and build one. I priced out components,
and it didn't seem like I could build anything better for what this
system cost me ($500 + tax - $50 mail in rebate). I'd need to keep my
old 1.1 Gz system up and running, so no taking parts from it other than
the video card.
Click to expand...

Define "better". If you're only looking at the CPU MHz, you
might be overlooking the long-term viability of the system.
The question may not be "what else for same cost" but
rather, "what will it cost to get the job done".

You could budget for playing only today's and
very-short-term next-gen games, but that's not so great a
strategy if you plan on getting about same lifespan with
this system as the past one.

2) Buy a PCI express video card and disable onboard one. Is 256 MB
needed to get decent performance on this game? What's a good PCI
express card to get?
Click to expand...

I'd get a 256MB card if you'd spending over about $150, but
up until that price-point, the $ is best spent on the
fastest GPU and memory speeds (particular card in any model
family) rather than part of it's cost going towards a lot of
memory the card is too slow to use well.

I'd look at a nVidia 6600GT. They've gradually dropped in
price and may be around $100 after rebates soon, if you keep
an eye open for deals (online, local stores tend to have
horrible prices on video cards).

3) Buy more RAM to compensate for the usage by the onboard card.
Click to expand...

That too. ;-)

Can't just do one or the other, for modern gaming you need a
well-rounded system. That means more than 512MB memory
(remaining if you're subtracting some) AND the better video
card. Right now I'd be more concerned about the issues
I'd mentioned, the # of memory modules in it and the power
and cooling- if these 3 elements aren't there, then I would
return the system.


I'd say my total budget for the whole deal is $750 or so. Right now I'm
about $475 or so in (assuming I mail in that rebate). For another $275
or so what can I do to get Quake 4 playable at a fairly high setting?
Click to expand...

Replacing the card and doubling the memory will be a good
start. Only you can decide if the base emachine is worth
keeping.
 
I had a old AMD 1.1 Ghz machine with ATI Radeon 9200 128 MB AGP card,
and decided I wanted to get a new PC to play Quake 4 and similar games
on.

Sales dude at big retail chain told me that Emachines T6216 they had
for sale had an AGA slot.
I foolishly believed him (my mistake, I should have checked online
first or something), and was expecting to get this box and put my ATI
card in. Nope.

Well, the world has moved on - and this machine has PCI express, but no
AGP. It's specs are :

Athlon 64 3200+
512 MD DDR SDRAM
nVidia geforce 6100 (intergrated)

Now I'm thinking that my old ATI card probably wouldn't be a lot better
that the nVidia card built in to this machine. Is that true? The
intergrated 6100 is eating up 128 MB RAM from the system, the way it
seems to me.

Quake 4 at the lowest settings is unplayable with the stock machine, so
I'm wondering what would be the best way to get it playable.

1) Return machine I just bought and build one. I priced out components,
and it didn't seem like I could build anything better for what this
system cost me ($500 + tax - $50 mail in rebate). I'd need to keep my
old 1.1 Gz system up and running, so no taking parts from it other than
the video card.

2) Buy a PCI express video card and disable onboard one. Is 256 MB
needed to get decent performance on this game? What's a good PCI
express card to get?

3) Buy more RAM to compensate for the usage by the onboard card.

I'd say my total budget for the whole deal is $750 or so. Right now I'm
about $475 or so in (assuming I mail in that rebate). For another $275
or so what can I do to get Quake 4 playable at a fairly high setting?
Click to expand...
you need 1gb of RAM for most modern games even with a separate graphics card
never mind an intergrated chip. Stick in extra RAM and see how you get on
and if you still not happy go for a 6600 of some type (GT is best). AGP is
still good enough but if you buy a new system you may as well go for PCI-E.
 
kony said:
On 1 Jan 2006 07:06:57 -0800, (e-mail address removed)


Yes that will effect gaming far more than more basic windows
uses. You should consider adding another 512MB module-
hopefully the 512MB already in it is only one module rather
than 2 x 256MB.
Click to expand...

Well, the existing memory is on two modules, but there are 2 open
slots.
Buy a PCI Express video card, of course.




Define "better". If you're only looking at the CPU MHz, you
might be overlooking the long-term viability of the system.
The question may not be "what else for same cost" but
rather, "what will it cost to get the job done".

You could budget for playing only today's and
very-short-term next-gen games, but that's not so great a
strategy if you plan on getting about same lifespan with
this system as the past one.
Click to expand...

Any reason why you would think the Athlon 64 3200+ isn't so long term
viable?

I looked at a used non 64 athlon system at a used computer shop (which
was $375),
and the guys there told me the 64 bit athalon was WAY faster. Since
they didn't sell that machine, I'm incined to think their praise of it
might be justified. The benchmarks seem to indicate this from what I
saw online - is there something I am missing as to why this wouldn't
last me a few years?

I'd get a 256MB card if you'd spending over about $150, but
up until that price-point, the $ is best spent on the
fastest GPU and memory speeds (particular card in any model
family) rather than part of it's cost going towards a lot of
memory the card is too slow to use well.

I'd look at a nVidia 6600GT. They've gradually dropped in
price and may be around $100 after rebates soon, if you keep
an eye open for deals (online, local stores tend to have
horrible prices on video cards).



That too. ;-)

Can't just do one or the other, for modern gaming you need a
well-rounded system. That means more than 512MB memory
(remaining if you're subtracting some) AND the better video
card. Right now I'd be more concerned about the issues
I'd mentioned, the # of memory modules in it and the power
and cooling- if these 3 elements aren't there, then I would
return the system.
Click to expand...

I don't know of any issues with the power and cooling - The case has a
large additional fan (besides the one on the power supply). Right of
the top of my head I don't know what the power supply rating is.
 
You CANNOT use a PCI_Express card in that computer. You can only use a much
slower PCI video card. If you can still, return that machine if you want
any hope of playing advanced games like Quake 4, and get a machine that
definitely has an AGP slot.
 
DaveW said:
You CANNOT use a PCI_Express card in that computer. You can only use a much
slower PCI video card. If you can still, return that machine if you want
any hope of playing advanced games like Quake 4, and get a machine that
definitely has an AGP slot.
Click to expand...

Dave,

Thanks for repling. I'm confused about your answer - there is a
PCI-Express slot on the motherboard - why could I not use a PCI-Express
card in that slot?
 
Well, the existing memory is on two modules, but there are 2 open
slots.
Click to expand...

That's the worst alternative because it means possible
higher (slower) memory timings would be used to keep
stability, or that stability isn't kept with all slots
populated and that for dual-channel, you have more
limitations in matching modules per channel. 1GB (as 2 x
512MB modules) isn't very expensive now, under $85 USD at
some places online so it is a more minor issue, but among
those making system less desirable.



Any reason why you would think the Athlon 64 3200+ isn't so long term
viable?
Click to expand...

A system is not just a CPU. Long-term viable means the
video card, memory, power and cooling capabilities for
expansion purposes too. On the other hand, it does include
the CPU, it is not long-term viable because if you buy a
decent mid-grade video card today, the CPU is already a
bottleneck. It's the least of the current bottlenecks
though, which is why i mostly mentioned the other factors.

I looked at a used non 64 athlon system at a used computer shop (which
was $375),
and the guys there told me the 64 bit athalon was WAY faster.
Click to expand...

Way faster than what? Of course it's faster than a older
system, all things being equal. Likewise, this
brand-new-system will also age and no longer be as fast as a
newer one in future. Same story different day, long-term
viability means actual performance level and in that we see
a good performance for Athlon64 family but least performance
from the low-end parts in that family.

Since
they didn't sell that machine, I'm incined to think their praise of it
might be justified. The benchmarks seem to indicate this from what I
saw online - is there something I am missing as to why this wouldn't
last me a few years?
Click to expand...

You can't buy a "name" of a CPU and expect performance. The
faster CPUs cost more than 2/3rd of what your entire system
did, even as much as whole system. Even so, your CPU is a
good start, but not long-term. Look at it this way, was
your Athlon 1.1G good for gaming 18 months ago? No, and
likewise, starting with only a 3200+ it'll soon enough be a
bottleneck.

In short, it's all about the cost of the parts. You can
find deals on parts but in general there's still a baseline
on how much one has to spend to make a gaming system viable
long-term. Again, Athlon64 is not a bad start, I don't even
know why you drift down this tangent since most of the post
was about video and memory.


I don't know of any issues with the power and cooling - The case has a
large additional fan (besides the one on the power supply). Right of
the top of my head I don't know what the power supply rating is.
Click to expand...

Well, more than just a casual conversation, these are real
issues you need to really address. Specifics such as temps
taken, voltage readings, and PSU capacity considered.
"Many" people just fudge and buy more PSU than they need, or
a more expensive OEM box that has a larger PSU in it, but
when trying to significantly upgrade a low-end OEM system it
becomes necessary to consider that they configure it to run
as-sold, at a low price and highest profit possible. There
are some situations where paying more only gets a video card
change but in general more expensive models (and makes) have
more engineering put into power and cooling.

It may be fine though, we can't see it- but it does need
considered.

 
Dave,

Thanks for repling. I'm confused about your answer - there is a
PCI-Express slot on the motherboard - why could I not use a PCI-Express
card in that slot?
Click to expand...

You probably could,the question is would it be worth it?Quake4 is a very
demanding game.With mass produced systems like that one,upgrading can really
be a problem.Heating issues,power issues - it can really get complicated.If
you're a gamer,especially if you're into first person shooters like
Quake,I'd take it back and look into a custom built system.Something with at
least a 3500+ and a 6800GT or GTX vid card.And at least 1MB of memory.
 
Dave,

Thanks for repling. I'm confused about your answer - there is a
PCI-Express slot on the motherboard - why could I not use a PCI-Express
card in that slot?
Click to expand...

A lot of people bash emachines. They were known in the past for having
really crappy power supplies. Actually many of the branded ones seem
to come with generic slightly underpowered PSes that work but not a
lot of room to add things. Two emachines I took apart were like that
and my Compaq/HP is like that. Its a 3200 AMD 754 socket but it has a
300 watt generic looking power supply.

The cases also tend to be a bit cramped and there usually arent a lot
of fans for ventilation. My Compaq for instance is fine but a bit
barebones. I also have a 3000 AMD my main system with a 500 watt PS
and it works fine for games. An Xbit labs article says surprisingly
3000-3200 AMD processors work fine for even demanding games its mainly
the video card you have to worry about after you have decent
processor.

The 6600 GT with 128 megs is fine probably the mainstream gamers card.
The 6800 non GT is fine if you can get one for a decent price and the
various variants of the nvidias. Theyve come out with a plethora of
models like ATI. People have posts super low prices for the 6600GT
recently at newegg etc as low as 110 or so with a small rebate. The
7800 new card people have posted as low as 275.

Ive tested Quake 4 with my 1600 AMD 9600 - really slow 640 x 480 low
Q. 1600 AMD with 9600 XT - med Q next higher res. My next test will
be the AMD 3200 with the 9600XT.

And Im using my 3200 with ATI 800XL 1280 x 768 . the odd res is
because I bought the Olevia LCD widescreen LCD HDTV 26" and it plays
fine. The 800 XL is roughly equal though it lags in tests---- to the
6800GT. Works great.

The single most immersive factor for me has been a BIG wide screen.
Theyve been blowing out the LCD HDTVs this Xmas. Last year you couldnt
touch a 26 LCD TV for under 1000. Now some have gotten them as low as
380 though you have to be pretty sharp and lucky to get them at that
price but there have been sales which are fairly easy to buy them at
499. Wide screen Ive seen predicted as one of the next big things in
PCs this year.

Anyway Ive owned the 6800 too AGP - if you want to play it safe get a
6800 or 800XL if you can get it at a good price. The ATIs seem to use
less power so it might or might not help you avoid any problems with
your your power supply depending upon how crappy it is.
 
Hi

If you had a machine that could run Doom 3 decently, it will run Quake
4 decently. If you can run games like Half-Life 2 or EverQuest 2, you
should be fine. However, make sure that if you get a computer as a new
upgrade, particularly one that's advertised as a gaming machine, that
it has a few important features to help your experience. Most computers
now would probably want at least 512 megs of RAM, and don't get a video
card that has less than 128 megs of RAM - 256 megs is the way to go.

You should also read this guide about selecting a video card:
http://www.build-your-own-computers.com/how-to-choose-a-video-card.html

Gary Hendricks
http://www.build-your-own-computers.com
 
Thanks everyone for your advice.

I added 512 MB of memory , and it increased the performance greatly.
Quake 4 plays fine on medium setting now. I have ordered a 6600GT
256 MB PCI-express card, and I'll see how much more that helps.
If it improves things as much as the memory did (or more) then I'm
happy.
 
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