Need Advice

Andy · Aug 13, 2005

To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's
equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly
after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into
the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho
of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was
unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any
harm. I felt uneasy about the matter but, not being knowledgeable about
hardware, who am I to argue with a technician. Right?

About a year ago my computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a CHKDSK /R revealed four files with bad clusters in the
occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application
programs. Recently major problems reared their ugly head again. One problem
was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to CHKDSK /R, dozens of
files with bad clusters in the partition containing the data files. I don't
know how many because the list scrolled off the screen.

Further checking by me has revealed that the "Health Status" of my computer,
as reported by the CMOS Setup Utility, shows that the CPU Warning
Temperature and the CPU Fan Fail Warning were both disabled.

PowerMax, a Drive Fitness Test program supplied by Maxtor, failed my HDD.

Question 1: Is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Question 2: For what reason would a seller of computers want to disable the
CMOS Setup Utility warnings and remove the cooling fan from the slide-out
cage containing a HDD?

Question 3: In light of the above, what action do you advise me to take?

Guidance from cognoscenti would be much appreciated.

Andy

Clark · Aug 13, 2005

I would not know about whether the fan was a cause or not, but saying the
fan was not needed is not an answer to why it was taken out. Was it noisy,
does it save money, why exactly was it done.

Now, if it wasn't put in rather than taken out, it might have been to save
the builder money. Then I might suspect his motives. Otherwise, why would
they go to the trouble of removing it?

If you have a software program that can monitor the temperatures you might
run that to see what they are, or even add an external thermometer to check.
I wonder if one of those laser thermometers could take the case temperature.
Once you have the operating temperatures you might check with the drive
maker to see if you have a problem. If the drive manufacturer indicates it
is too high a temperature, then you can go to the builder with facts.

Clark

philo · Aug 13, 2005

Question 1: Is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Question 2: For what reason would a seller of computers want to disable the
CMOS Setup Utility warnings and remove the cooling fan from the slide-out
cage containing a HDD?

Question 3: In light of the above, what action do you advise me to take?

although the fan is probably not 100% essential...
it was *not* a very good idea to remove it...
chances though, you can still get your warranty on the HD
(if it's not past the warranty period).
when you replace the drive...be sure to also install the fan!
additionally, you might as well enable to warnings...
and in the future...build your own units rather than have someone else
do it!

kony · Aug 13, 2005

To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's
equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly
after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into
the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho
of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was
unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any
harm. I felt uneasy about the matter but, not being knowledgeable about
hardware, who am I to argue with a technician. Right?

Beware of shops that make such swpeeding suggestions as
fact. HDDs are no more immune to heat today than in past
years, but produce more of it after the move to 7K2 RPM and
further with some of the smaller surface mount electronics.

About a year ago my computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a CHKDSK /R revealed four files with bad clusters in the
occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application
programs.

While it's likely that the missing fan caused the drive to
run hotter, and further, more likely for a drive to fail
sooner if ran hotter, we cannot be sure the problem was
heat-related, let alone prove it.

Recently major problems reared their ugly head again. One problem
was a badly seated memory card.

"Recent"? This is curious, as a module doesn't generally
wait 22 months to work their way out if they will. Perhaps
someone had been in the system due to the drive failure, or
the system was moved? Regardless, obviously it shouldn't
have happened.

The other, according to CHKDSK /R, dozens of
files with bad clusters in the partition containing the data files. I don't
know how many because the list scrolled off the screen.

You should run the HDD manufacturer's diagnostics, after
backing up the data.

Further checking by me has revealed that the "Health Status" of my computer,
as reported by the CMOS Setup Utility, shows that the CPU Warning
Temperature and the CPU Fan Fail Warning were both disabled.

That's not so uncommon, if a board manufacturer leaves them
disabled as a default or one of the fans doesn't have an RPM
output. While they'd be enabled in an ideal world, for
years (until recently it was not so common) systems have not
had such sensors.

PowerMax, a Drive Fitness Test program supplied by Maxtor, failed my HDD.

Question 1: Is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

I wouldn't go so far as to write "likely", because they're
no way to know what the resultant temp of the HDD was. The
fan might've been removed because it was loud- many are.
DId you need the slid-out bay? Typically a drive is cooled
best in a bottom rack with a pusher intake fan in front of
it, or a large concentrated passive intake in front of the
bay. Removable racks (even with those tiny fans) can't
begin to cool as well.

It does make it arguable that the lack of fan may've
contributed to the drive's death though. I wouldn't expect
a seller to feel obligated to provide resolution to you, but
if you feel like taking it up with them there is an argument
to be made if you feel it gives any benefit to do so.

Question 2: For what reason would a seller of computers want to disable the
CMOS Setup Utility warnings and remove the cooling fan from the slide-out
cage containing a HDD?

See above.

Question 3: In light of the above, what action do you advise me to take?

Is it still under warranty?
Unfortunately if it isn't, they're not really bound to
anything, though you could insist they give you a new fan to
install in the rack (frankly I wouldn't want them touching
the system at all at this point, better to install it
yourself). As for the drive, IIRC, it only had a one-year
warranty so your best course of action is to look for a deal
on a replacement (online or local retail/discount store, not
from them).

Generally speaking, these kinds of complaints are best made
immediately after purchase. If they dismiss the need for
the drive fan, insist that they give you the fan anyway...
if you dont' want it connected then you can disconnect it
yourself or not install it (whichever).

Often boards start out with fan shutdown features disabled
because many boards don't reliably detect fans below a
certain threshold, so for the optimal low-RPM (low noise,
dust accumulation and wear) fan it's more likely to be a
problem for the motherboard to correctly detect it's
operation, than an (otherwise less desirable)
small/cheap/loud fan would be.

Bob · Aug 13, 2005

Removable racks (even with those tiny fans) can't
begin to cool as well.

Then why does my Kingwin KF-23 and my Enermax ES-352 cool their drives
just as well as they are cooled in any other location - typically they
run at 30-35C? The KF-23 has three 40mm fans and the Enermax has one
60mm fan - and none of them are noisy either.

Andy · Aug 13, 2005

Hello Clark,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Clark said:
I would not know about whether the fan was a cause or not, but saying the
fan was not needed is not an answer to why it was taken out. Was it noisy,
does it save money, why exactly was it done.

That was the only explanation the builder offered.

Now, if it wasn't put in rather than taken out, it might have been to save
the builder money. Then I might suspect his motives. Otherwise, why
would they go to the trouble of removing it?

The slide-out cage came with the fan built in, and the builder took it out.

If you have a software program that can monitor the temperatures you might
run that to see what they are, or even add an external thermometer to
check. I wonder if one of those laser thermometers could take the case
temperature. Once you have the operating temperatures you might check with
the drive maker to see if you have a problem. If the drive manufacturer
indicates it is too high a temperature, then you can go to the builder
with facts.

I have such a software program, and it agrees with the CMOS Setup Utility
that shows the following values (now that I've enabled them):

Current System Temperature 40 C

Current CPU Temperature 64 C

Current CPU Fan Speed 3240 RP

Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to
60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. I'm told that if I intend
to operate my drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the
55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. I should add
that the the slide-out cage containing the HDD is too hot to touch.

Andy · Aug 13, 2005

Hello,

philo said:
although the fan is probably not 100% essential...
it was *not* a very good idea to remove it...
chances though, you can still get your warranty on the HD
(if it's not past the warranty period).
when you replace the drive...be sure to also install the fan!
additionally, you might as well enable to warnings...
and in the future...build your own units rather than have someone else do
it!

Thanks for the suggestion but, alas, I'm not up to the job of building my
own computer.

Andy

Andy · Aug 13, 2005

kony said:
Beware of shops that make such swpeeding suggestions as
fact. HDDs are no more immune to heat today than in past
years, but produce more of it after the move to 7K2 RPM and
further with some of the smaller surface mount electronics.

This experience has made me very much aware of such shops.

While it's likely that the missing fan caused the drive to
run hotter, and further, more likely for a drive to fail
sooner if ran hotter, we cannot be sure the problem was
heat-related, let alone prove it.

"Recent"? This is curious, as a module doesn't generally
wait 22 months to work their way out if they will. Perhaps
someone had been in the system due to the drive failure, or
the system was moved? Regardless, obviously it shouldn't
have happened.

The computer is on 24/7 and is not subject to the usual temperature
fluctuations that cause the memory card to pop.

You should run the HDD manufacturer's diagnostics, after
backing up the data.

I have. Maxtor's PowerMax says the drive fails its tests.

That's not so uncommon, if a board manufacturer leaves them
disabled as a default or one of the fans doesn't have an RPM
output. While they'd be enabled in an ideal world, for
years (until recently it was not so common) systems have not
had such sensors.

Once I enabled them, they seemed to show reasonable values. These values
agree with those produced by my Motherboard Monitor program.

I wouldn't go so far as to write "likely", because they're
no way to know what the resultant temp of the HDD was. The
fan might've been removed because it was loud- many are.

As I stated above, the builder gave the only reason that it was unnecessary.

DId you need the slid-out bay? Typically a drive is cooled
best in a bottom rack with a pusher intake fan in front of
it, or a large concentrated passive intake in front of the
bay. Removable racks (even with those tiny fans) can't
begin to cool as well.

Great point. At the time I was planning to move the drive to another
computer in case of computer trouble. This hasn't panned out, so I will have
the new HDD permanently installed for the reasons you state.

It does make it arguable that the lack of fan may've
contributed to the drive's death though. I wouldn't expect
a seller to feel obligated to provide resolution to you, but
if you feel like taking it up with them there is an argument
to be made if you feel it gives any benefit to do so.

I intend to make that argument. The computer came with a 3-year warranty.

See above.

Is it still under warranty?
Yes.

Unfortunately if it isn't, they're not really bound to
anything, though you could insist they give you a new fan to
install in the rack (frankly I wouldn't want them touching
the system at all at this point, better to install it
yourself). As for the drive, IIRC, it only had a one-year
warranty so your best course of action is to look for a deal
on a replacement (online or local retail/discount store, not
from them).

Generally speaking, these kinds of complaints are best made
immediately after purchase. If they dismiss the need for
the drive fan, insist that they give you the fan anyway...
if you dont' want it connected then you can disconnect it
yourself or not install it (whichever).

I did complain, but my complaint was dismissed. Had I kown what I know now,
I would have turned the heat up on them. I find it easier to be a nice guy,
and sometimes I pay the price.

Often boards start out with fan shutdown features disabled
because many boards don't reliably detect fans below a
certain threshold, so for the optimal low-RPM (low noise,
dust accumulation and wear) fan it's more likely to be a
problem for the motherboard to correctly detect it's
operation, than an (otherwise less desirable)
small/cheap/loud fan would be.

I haven't had any problems with the fans. Since I enabled the temperature
and fan failure warnings, they've been working fine. When they fall outside
of the stated limits, a buzzer goes on. I don't know whether they would
trigger a shutdown after a time(GigaByte K7 Triton GA-7N400-L Motherboard).

Andy

Bob · Aug 13, 2005

Thanks for the suggestion but, alas, I'm not up to the job of building my
own computer.

It's not all that difficult if you get the parts supplier to assemble
it for you. Use your own operating system so you don't have to buy one
- that way you can decide what to install and how to configure it.

One advantage of having it bult is that you know the system will work
when you get it. Another advantage is it can be burned in which means
the supplier will catch infant mortality. And some suppliers will pay
return shipping if an item goes out when they pre-test all the
components.

Directron will build your system for $27 which is a helluva bargain
considering all that you get.

Bob · Aug 13, 2005

Current System Temperature 40 C

A bit warm. Should be around 30-35C at most.

Current CPU Temperature 64 C

Way too hot.

Current CPU Fan Speed 3240 RP

Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to
60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. I'm told that if I intend
to operate my drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the
55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. I should add
that the the slide-out cage containing the HDD is too hot to touch.

55C is way too hot. You should be running 30-35C

Bob · Aug 13, 2005

Thanks for the suggestion but, alas, I'm not up to the job of building my
own computer.

It's not all that difficult if you get the parts supplier to assemble
it for you. Use your own operating system so you don't have to buy one
- that way you can decide what to install and how to configure it.

One advantage of having it bult is that you know the system will work
when you get it. Another advantage is it can be burned in which means
the supplier will catch infant mortality. And some suppliers will pay
return shipping if an item goes out when they pre-test all the
components.

Directron will build your system for $27 which is a helluva bargain
considering all that you get.

Something I forgot to emphasize is that the parts supplier must be
chosen carefully. You obviously had bad luck with the one who built
your system. The large national suppliers are a better choice, but be
sure to ask around first.

Bob · Aug 13, 2005

This experience has made me very much aware of such shops.

Stay away from "shops". Go with large national suppliers. Ask around
first.

Andy · Aug 13, 2005

Hi Philo,

philo said:
although the fan is probably not 100% essential...
it was *not* a very good idea to remove it...

I suspected it then, and I know it now.

chances though, you can still get your warranty on the HD
(if it's not past the warranty period).
when you replace the drive...be sure to also install the fan!

It's under warranty. This time the new drive will go inside the case, not
into a slide-out cage.

additionally, you might as well enable to warnings...

I already have.

and in the future...build your own units rather than have someone else do
it!

Sorry, I ain't no frigging hardware guru. :-)

Thanks for the tips.

Andy

Andy · Aug 13, 2005

Hi Bob,

Bob said:
It's not all that difficult if you get the parts supplier to assemble
it for you. Use your own operating system so you don't have to buy one
- that way you can decide what to install and how to configure it.

One advantage of having it bult is that you know the system will work
when you get it. Another advantage is it can be burned in which means
the supplier will catch infant mortality. And some suppliers will pay
return shipping if an item goes out when they pre-test all the
components.

Directron will build your system for $27 which is a helluva bargain
considering all that you get.

Thanks for the tip, Bob, but I hope to keep my current system for a few more
years. It will probably outlast me.

Andy

kony · Aug 14, 2005

Then why does my Kingwin KF-23 and my Enermax ES-352 cool their drives
just as well as they are cooled in any other location - typically they
run at 30-35C? The KF-23 has three 40mm fans and the Enermax has one
60mm fan - and none of them are noisy either.

Because your "other locations" are not optimally set up.
Speaking factually, 3 40mm fans or 1 60mm fan cannot move as
much air at same noise level as larger fan(s) used in a
traditional rack. Even then I am ignoring that "usually"
such fans in racks are closer to ear level and orientation
such that any noise they did make was more audible per db.

kony · Aug 14, 2005

Stay away from "shops". Go with large national suppliers. Ask around
first.

There are many shops that can provide superior build,
service, and support relative to a national supplier. If we
considered a national shop "average", then there is a large
range of good and bad shops.

IMO, the best way for an uninitiated system buyer to proceed
with a local shop purchase is to make a list and ask
questions. Not simply depending on their answers, but also
researching the answers themselves beforehand... not in an
effort to try to correct a shop employee that seems wrong,
but rather to assess whether you feel comfortable having
them build and provide service for the life of the system.

Further such a list can help express desires for the build,
things like a case with ample unobstructed intake and
exhaust, high quality name-brand fans and power supply.
Left on their own, many shops will use a generic case that
requires high RPM fans for marginal cooling. They'll often
charge 200% markup on a generic PSU but (often) under 100%
on a good name-brand PSU- because they're looking more at
total $ profit more than a percent.

When their build is complete and it's time to pick up the
box- another list of things to check should be in-hand.

kony · Aug 14, 2005

This experience has made me very much aware of such shops.

Some are good, others bad. Even in same shop each
"technician" has their own level of experience and
misconceptions. So it is, also, if you were to call Dell
and talk to a CSR about anything not listed in their support
booklet. When in doubt, talk to senior technicians if
possible.

I intend to make that argument. The computer came with a 3-year warranty.

That's an unusually long warranty, you are fortunately,
perhaps even lucky if/when they cover the drive failure.

I did complain, but my complaint was dismissed. Had I kown what I know now,
I would have turned the heat up on them. I find it easier to be a nice guy,
and sometimes I pay the price.

It is possible to use removable bays without pusher fans but
generally it's only sufficient on server-grade equipment
where the fan noise isn't reduced, there are several loud
mid-system or exhaust fans creating higher passive intake
rate. Further, it requires a bay faceplace with a lot of
open area to reduce flow impedance, the opposite of a
design meant to use a fan as it should be the opposite,
completely closed to prevent recirculation except for the
fan hole itself.

I haven't had any problems with the fans. Since I enabled the temperature
and fan failure warnings, they've been working fine. When they fall outside
of the stated limits, a buzzer goes on. I don't know whether they would
trigger a shutdown after a time(GigaByte K7 Triton GA-7N400-L Motherboard).

You're more likely to have fan trouble in the future than
the past, since even most junk fans will run for a year or
two. If any begin making noise, immediately lube them (if
sleeve-bearing type) or seek a replacement if ball-bearing
(which fail more slowly, usually) rather than waiting for a
complete failure or RPM alarm.

Andy · Aug 14, 2005

Hi Kony,

kony said:
Some are good, others bad. Even in same shop each
"technician" has their own level of experience and
misconceptions. So it is, also, if you were to call Dell
and talk to a CSR about anything not listed in their support
booklet. When in doubt, talk to senior technicians if
possible.

That's an unusually long warranty, you are fortunately,
perhaps even lucky if/when they cover the drive failure.

I paid extra for the 3-year on-site warranty. The original warranty was a
1-year carry-in warranty. I was told by the shop this morning that the new
drive will be installed in my machine Monday morning. I'll believe it when I
see it.

It is possible to use removable bays without pusher fans but
generally it's only sufficient on server-grade equipment
where the fan noise isn't reduced, there are several loud
mid-system or exhaust fans creating higher passive intake
rate. Further, it requires a bay faceplace with a lot of
open area to reduce flow impedance, the opposite of a
design meant to use a fan as it should be the opposite,
completely closed to prevent recirculation except for the
fan hole itself.

I see. The new drive will go into the case and not the removable bay.

You're more likely to have fan trouble in the future than
the past, since even most junk fans will run for a year or
two. If any begin making noise, immediately lube them (if
sleeve-bearing type) or seek a replacement if ball-bearing
(which fail more slowly, usually) rather than waiting for a
complete failure or RPM alarm.

Will do.

Thanks for your guidance, Kony.

Andy