NEC 3500A DVD-RW Installation Problem

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backustwo

System is a HP Pavilion a1400e with 2 GB ram.

Originally I had the preinstalled HP XP Home w/sp2 (fully patched)
working fine with the HP CD-RW and the NEC 3500A installed, each on
their own ide channel set to master.

I then performed a clean install of XP Pro w/sp2 and have fully
patched. I am now trying to reconnect the NEC drive. The computer
works fine with the default hardware. When I attach the NEC (connect
the ide cable and power) and boot the machine neither drive spins and
neither drive is recognized in the BIOS nor in the device manager, nor
does either drive function in any manner - can't open bay for example.

Mobo is Asus A8N-LA aka Nagami2L-GL8E
Award BIOS 3.11

Matt
 
backustwo said:
System is a HP Pavilion a1400e with 2 GB ram.

Originally I had the preinstalled HP XP Home w/sp2 (fully patched)
working fine with the HP CD-RW and the NEC 3500A installed, each on
their own ide channel set to master.

I then performed a clean install of XP Pro w/sp2 and have fully
patched. I am now trying to reconnect the NEC drive. The computer
works fine with the default hardware. When I attach the NEC (connect
the ide cable and power) and boot the machine neither drive spins and
neither drive is recognized in the BIOS nor in the device manager, nor
does either drive function in any manner - can't open bay for example.

Mobo is Asus A8N-LA aka Nagami2L-GL8E
Award BIOS 3.11
Striped wire on cable to the Mboard goes to No. 1
on the socket, and nearest to the power plug on the drive\s.

Are they the correct way round ?.
Are the power plugs pushed fully home ?.
Are they sharing with Hard drives ?.

Make sure the Master\Slave setup on each cable is correct.

bw..OJ
 
When you apparently switched from the preinstalled XP to a retail version of
XP (is that true) you had no way of installing the motherboard drivers for
the PROPRIETARY HP motherboard from Asus. That may be your problem. The
preinstalled version included the motherboard drivers.
 
DaveW said:
When you apparently switched from the preinstalled XP to a retail version of
XP (is that true) you had no way of installing the motherboard drivers for
the PROPRIETARY HP motherboard from Asus. That may be your problem. The
preinstalled version included the motherboard drivers.
Thank you for the reply.

It is true that I went from the "HP XP Home" to a "retail XP Pro", yes.

I'm ignorant that there is a motherboard driver (proprietary or
otherwise). Are you saying that there is no way for me to do this?
Can I not get it off my "HP install cd"? I did use some other drivers
off that cd.
 
I won't deny that I've wondered this. However, this morning, I did
successfully connect the NEC by itself on the primary channel as the
master.
 
backustwo said:
Additionally, each drive will run when hooked up by itself.

In that case check the jumpering. It may have always been
wrong, ever since you added the drive. Some bad jumpering
does work in some situations and that may be the problem.

Both drives need to be jumpered cable
select or one master and the other slave.
 
Rod said:
In that case check the jumpering. It may have always been
wrong, ever since you added the drive. Some bad jumpering
does work in some situations and that may be the problem.

Both drives need to be jumpered cable
select or one master and the other slave.

Is this true even if they each have their own ide channel? I have two
ide channels and each drive was attached to its own. As a side note,
my booted hard disk it sata.

I will give this a try.

Thank you.
 
backustwo said:
Rod Speed wrote
Is this true even if they each have their own ide channel?
No.

I have two ide channels and each drive was attached to its own.
As a side note, my booted hard disk it sata.

OK, then the jumpering shouldnt matter.

Odd that you get an interaction between two drives on different ribbon cables.

Might be some quirk of the sata config tho. Some
motherboards can have rather strange sata configs.
 
HP has suggested that an upgrade to the power supply is in order. I'm
a little mystified as to why the rest of the system would function and
only the rom drives would not function, but I am willing to try. The
stock system comes with a meager 250w ps (another reason to custom
build). HP indicates that a maximum of a 350w ps can be used with this
mobo. What gives? I've never heard of a mobo limit for ps wattage.
 
backustwo said:
HP has suggested that an upgrade to the power supply is in order. I'm
a little mystified as to why the rest of the system would function and
only the rom drives would not function, but I am willing to try. The
stock system comes with a meager 250w ps (another reason to custom
build). HP indicates that a maximum of a 350w ps can be used with this
mobo. What gives? I've never heard of a mobo limit for ps wattage.
The more devices you put in a machine,
the more power you need !.
 
HP has suggested that an upgrade to the power supply is in order. I'm
a little mystified as to why the rest of the system would function and
only the rom drives would not function, but I am willing to try. The
stock system comes with a meager 250w ps (another reason to custom
build). HP indicates that a maximum of a 350w ps can be used with this
mobo. What gives? I've never heard of a mobo limit for ps wattage.


Translated, it probably means "that's the largest wattage we
sell that's tested/qualified for that system".

However, there is a bright side. HP, like some other OEMs,
uses honestly rated PSU. When you see a 250W rating from
them, consider it 250W sustained for the MTBF. Translated,
that is equivalent to a typical 350-400W PSU from most
manufacturers when it comes to ability to run long term.

Some PSU might have a larger transformer and be able to
produce peak wattage a bit higher, but seldom is such
wattage useful, more often a system under that much load is
either runningn a somewhat linear job at continuous full
load, or a job where there are multiple high powered
components drawing cumulative high load (such as gaming).

A 350W HP PSU > most name brand 450W PSU, > practically all
3rd tier 550W or lower PSU.

The other factor might be if it's proprietarily wired, then
without significant reengineering you are left with whatever
they offer.

An honest 250W will power a lot. One of my fileservers has
a 300W Delta and has 8 HDDs in it. Another has 240W Delta
and 6 HDDs. Gotta love Delta, but many of the HP PSU in the
past have been built equivalent to some Seasonics - not a
bad brand at all, PC Power & Cooling had many of theirs made
by Seasonic.

Anyway, you're right, there is no inherant limit in how high
a wattage PSU could be connected to any given motherboard.
The supply merely has to be stable at the lower current
demands of the particular system and practically any system
would produce the minimal current spec'd by most
manufacturers, which is typically around 2A on at least the
5V rail, and 2A on 12V rail with more modern PSU, and 2A on
the 3.3V rail with more sophisticated PSU that also monitor
this rail.

Any system puts more than 2A load on the 5V and 12V. A few
(particularly those that don't derive memory supply from the
3.3V rail or have newer PCI cards) might not have much load
on the 3.3V rail, but in such cases you can always DIY -
Pick the PSU you want and do what it takes to MAKE it work.
In this particular scenario it would mean adding a modest
load to the 3.3V rail. This is not just conjecture, ideally
a PSU would monitor all rails, but not all boards put loads
on all. Some very high quality PSU will not run "some"
systems unless you become the engineer and figure out how to
make-it-work.

Bottom line- Figure out if your system has a proprietary PSU
wiring/pinout. If it does not, you have no need to spend a
premium to buy a PSU from HP. When I write premium I really
mean it, HP has good PSU but you can buy equivalent quality
in the aftermarket for 50% less.

If it does (have proprietary pinout), you can spend a lot of
time reverse engineering it, something I have done, but
frankly it's not worth the time, better to buy the higher
wattage HP PSU if it isn't priced outrageously (Over $100).
 
backustwo said:
HP has suggested that an upgrade to the power supply is in order.

Yeah, that could well produce the effect you are getting,
particularly with it working with just one drive but not with two.
I'm a little mystified as to why the rest of the system would function
and only the rom drives would not function, but I am willing to try.

The 12V rail doesnt supply all that much on those
older systems except the drives and fans etc.
The stock system comes with a meager 250w ps (another reason to custom
build). HP indicates that a maximum of a 350w ps can be used with this mobo.
What gives? I've never heard of a mobo limit for ps wattage.

They likely just mean that those are the two that HP offers for that system.
 
Yeah, that could well produce the effect you are getting,
particularly with it working with just one drive but not with two.


The 12V rail doesnt supply all that much on those
older systems except the drives and fans etc.

Is it an older system? I was lazy, only searched till I
found a hit, but that hit suggested nVidia 6150 platform,
hardly "older".
 
Thank you for the great replies. You're a little over my head on first
read and without more research (which I will do).

I can answer, "no", it is not an older system, to the best of my
knowledge. I purchased it in July 2006, and it seems that I found
somewhere on the net that the board began being manufactured in
February 2006.

There is still one fundamental question that bothers me, why did these
two drives function before I upgraded my os from the oem xp home to a
retail xp pro? Seemingly to me, it is not an os issue though, as the
bios does not even see the drives.

Thank you again.

Matt
 
Thank you for the great replies. You're a little over my head on first
read and without more research (which I will do).

I can answer, "no", it is not an older system, to the best of my
knowledge. I purchased it in July 2006, and it seems that I found
somewhere on the net that the board began being manufactured in
February 2006.

There is still one fundamental question that bothers me, why did these
two drives function before I upgraded my os from the oem xp home to a
retail xp pro? Seemingly to me, it is not an os issue though, as the
bios does not even see the drives.


Did you really only change the OS, or did you have the case
open, perhaps shuffling around drive connections?

Regardless, you are correct that we can rule out OS if the
system can't even detect these drives, that would tend to
suggest (if it's a configuration problem) they aren't
jumpered properly, is it possible you had confused which
jumpers correspond to which positions?

I don't recall if "all" drives have the standard jumper
positions but generally from left to right it's:
Cable Select | Slave | Master

I usually leave them set to Cable Select, only changing that
if it doesn't work. If you had them on the middle of the
cable, put them on the end alone, one-at-a-time and see if
they're detected.

It is possible a struggling PSU could result in either or
both not working, but if the rest of the system was working
and stable otherwise it seems far less likely you would only
have the optical drives failing to detect, especially if
there is no disc in them they are not much of a current draw
relative to anything else when a system POSTs.
 
At the time of the switchover, "no", I had not moved anything.

Now, yes, I have fiddled with things in an attempt to troubleshoot.
When I originally installed the DVD-RW I had set it to master and not
modified the HP drive. At one point I had them both set to master, but
as of today they are both set to cable select - still not co-working.

I'm considering two resolutions. 1/ make the internal dvd-rw and
external dvd-rw with an aftermarket case.
2/ i have an antec 300w ps from a now non-functional system.

assuming i don't have any wiring issues - still tbd, i'm wondering if
trying this antec ps might be risky. you see i ruined either the cpu
or the mobo on this older system. i somewhat satisfactorily verified
that it was not a blown ps by trying a different known good ps and
still the system wouldn't power. my concern is that even though the
antec may not be bad, it may be damaged. is there any excessive risk
that a weak ps could damage my otherwise functioning hp? if so, i'd
rather get the rom case or buy a new psu.

btw, i couldn't find a retailer of delta psu's for consumer level
application.

matt
 
At the time of the switchover, "no", I had not moved anything.

Now, yes, I have fiddled with things in an attempt to troubleshoot.
When I originally installed the DVD-RW I had set it to master and not
modified the HP drive. At one point I had them both set to master, but
as of today they are both set to cable select - still not co-working.

I'm considering two resolutions. 1/ make the internal dvd-rw and
external dvd-rw with an aftermarket case.
2/ i have an antec 300w ps from a now non-functional system.

assuming i don't have any wiring issues - still tbd, i'm wondering if
trying this antec ps might be risky. you see i ruined either the cpu
or the mobo on this older system.

If the motherboard failed (CPU is unlikely unless the
heatsink wasn't on good or fell off) then the PSU would
typically be fine still. If the PSU killed the board, quite
the opposite situation. A separate test of the PSU
including voltage readings would be prudent before trying to
use it with anything of value.


i somewhat satisfactorily verified
that it was not a blown ps by trying a different known good ps and
still the system wouldn't power.

Perhaps, but finding it still won't work is not as useful as
finding combinations that do work.


my concern is that even though the
antec may not be bad, it may be damaged.

I'd sooner expect the PSU was an initial failure point
contributing to the board failure, or the board failing had
progressively stressed the PSU, rather than board failing
then damaging the PSU in one momentary event. I don't tend
to try to predict these things often though, since there are
so many variables it is better to test the PSU and go from
there. An initial test could be something like hooking up a
minor load (like an old hard drive), shorting the PS-ON
green wire to ground and seeing if it runs, if the load gets
power, if multimeter readings indicate voltage output on all
leads is within acceptible levels (though rails that are
unloaded might drift out of spec, it is easier to first take
the readings and then try to interpret them).

is there any excessive risk
that a weak ps could damage my otherwise functioning hp? if so, i'd
rather get the rom case or buy a new psu.

btw, i couldn't find a retailer of delta psu's for consumer level
application.

matt


You wouldn't find Deltas through normal channels, they do
OEM mostly and you get lucky to find some surplus diverted
to the surplus channels every now and then.

You mention the Antec 300W, does this mean you have
concluded your system does use standard motherboard - PSU
wiring? Some HP even use a different shape PSU, taller
(takes a 92mm fan) and slightly narrower.

If your system is working besides these drives, it would
tend to indicate the present PSU is still working. I don't
think the Antec 300W will make a difference but I could be
wrong, at any rate I think it a downgrade, most OEM 250W PSU
are better than a mere 300W Antec and if it's an older Antec
model, it may not have much current capability on it's 12V
rail which is fairly important on a semi-modern system using
12V power for the CPU power supply (on motherboard)
subcircuit.

If you have a multimeter it would be good to take voltage
readings at the drives' power plugs. If they (5V & 12V)
aren't far out of spec and the system otherwise works, I
don't think it worth the bother to try another PSU. Further
considering the questionable state of the Antec, it seems
best left out of the system- though at some point you might
try using it to power something of low/no value to see if it
works.

If a PSU works properly, being weak should not damage a
system in the short term. It should merely shut itself off
if it can't keep the rails at an acceptible voltage range.
On the other hand, putting it under too much stress it could
cause damage if the protection wasn't conservative enough...
which I can't predict, since in general trying to use an
underpowered PSU is best avoided entirely.

I would try each drive separately, hopefully with a known
good data cable. You might also try hooking the drive up in
place of the hard drive on the first PATA channel as a
temporary measure (If you had a PATA on first channel, I
don't recall all details of the system at this point) just
to see if the bios detects it and if it might be able to
boot to CD with that arrangement. Also recheck all bios
settings and you might try clearing cmos as well.

Ultimately it is useful to have another system available to
try suspect parts like the drives.
 
I'm very embarrassed to write this post. As at least one of you
suggested, and likely most of you suspected - it appears as though one
of the ide cables was installed backwards. I was inside the case
poking around again, and was messing around the mobo ide plugs and
something seemed odd. When I looked closer it seemed as though one of
the cables may be in backward. I had swapped in a different ide cable
since my original post, but both the one I pulled and the one I
replaced it with were not keyed, except for the red stripe.

I do appreciate all the advice, and I will need the power supply
information, as I am going to put in a PCI-E graphic card which will
likely require a new psu.

Again, thank you for all your patience and attention.

Matt
 
backustwo said:
I'm very embarrassed to write this post. As at least one of you
suggested, and likely most of you suspected - it appears as though one
of the ide cables was installed backwards. I was inside the case
poking around again, and was messing around the mobo ide plugs and
something seemed odd. When I looked closer it seemed as though one of
the cables may be in backward. I had swapped in a different ide cable
since my original post, but both the one I pulled and the one I
replaced it with were not keyed, except for the red stripe.

I do appreciate all the advice, and I will need the power supply
information, as I am going to put in a PCI-E graphic card which will
likely require a new psu.

Again, thank you for all your patience and attention.

Thanks for having the balls to post that.
 
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