Neatimage

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Steve

Anyone use this? I am very impressed though some say you lose detail and the
picture looks 'flat' (I don't agree). One added advantage is that my JPEG
files reduce in size from around 13MB to 3MB (scanned film 4000 dpi). That
grain must take a lot of memory!
 
Anyone use this? I am very impressed though some say you lose detail and the
picture looks 'flat' (I don't agree). One added advantage is that my JPEG
files reduce in size from around 13MB to 3MB (scanned film 4000 dpi). That
grain must take a lot of memory!
lots of people use it, me too.

I usually get a small reduction in jpeg size after noise reduction,
nothing like you report but I also use modest levels of noise reduction.
Are you sure you are saving with the same quality setting as your source
file?

Normally I use a 16 bit/channel tiff file as input and output, although I
usually save as jpeg for my final result if it is "just another image".
 
I will check that. I can say I don't see any degradation or artefacts, in
fact the image is better without the grain. Any loss of detail you have to
look really hard - its minimal - anyway photos are to look at and enjoy not
scrutinise under a microscope! Lets face it until digital and scanners came
along we used to look at machine processed 6" x 4" from the local film
shop - you would never see an enlargement equivalent to a 17" monitor
screen!
 
Steve said:
Anyone use this? I am very impressed though some say you lose detail and the
picture looks 'flat' (I don't agree). One added advantage is that my
JPEG

If you look closely, you might notice a drop in contrast in previously
strong regions of the image. I've seen this at times with the NI and
Noise Ninja demos as well as Paint Shop Pro's Digital Camera Noise
Reduction.
files reduce in size from around 13MB to 3MB (scanned film 4000 dpi). That
grain must take a lot of memory!

Some of that is bound to be loss of detail due to the repeated file
compression. When I was getting started with image editing, I didn't
know JPEGs were lossy and saved several revisions of an image on top of
each other at whatever compression level the simple software was using.
File size dropped by a factor of 10 or more, and no noise removal was
involved. Check the before-and-after hue and saturation channels to be
sure you're not losing more than you realize.

That said, it's reasonable to assume (though not a sure thing, since I
don't know exactly how JPEG goes to work) that any blending and
smoothing out of sharp, few-pixel grain artifacts will improve the
compression ratio.

false_dmitrii
 
A similar product is the Noise Ninja, which I use following
the recommendation of Rob Galbraith.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/index.asp

Both products manage to provide magnificent results on large,
smooth areas, and... to spoil completely fine details beyond
believe. You called it "looking flat"! Considering the price
of these "filter only" utilities I consider them overpriced.
Your mileage may vary, but I prefer edge analyzing smoothening
filter, such as the one Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro.

http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/is_noiseninja_good

My recommendation for the use: Obtain a large scan, filter
it and than sample down to the desired resolution. This will
help preserve detail and also will average a bit filter
artifacts. Noise Ninja has a batch processor, a bit clumsy
with a 'unique' interface, but it is a batch processor.

Thomas
 
ThomasH said:
A similar product is the Noise Ninja, which I use following
the recommendation of Rob Galbraith.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/index.asp

Both products manage to provide magnificent results on large,
smooth areas, and... to spoil completely fine details beyond
believe. You called it "looking flat"! Considering the price
of these "filter only" utilities I consider them overpriced.
Your mileage may vary, but I prefer edge analyzing smoothening
filter, such as the one Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro.

http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/is_noiseninja_good

By "edge analyzing smoothening filter," do you mean the PS or PSP
equivalents to NI/NN, or do you instead mean the simpler "edge
preserving smooth" or equivalent feature? NI and similar filters on
default settings may smooth too much detail, but a much better balance
can be reached through tweaking. NN and PSP's DCNR offer selective hue
protection, which can be a quick way to isolate fine details such as
distant tree branches. Although I'm still not especially good at
putting these filters to work, with conservative settings I'm usually
happier with PSP's DCNR output (perhaps followed by some sharpening)
than with any of the simpler blur functions.
My recommendation for the use: Obtain a large scan, filter
it and than sample down to the desired resolution. This will
help preserve detail and also will average a bit filter
artifacts. Noise Ninja has a batch processor, a bit clumsy
with a 'unique' interface, but it is a batch processor.

Yeah, scan resolution makes a big difference. It took a lot of work to
protect detail on my 1200ppi Epson scans, whereas a 5400ppi Minolta
image looked just fine with DCNR small noise filtering set to full.
The noise removers work much better when the digital grain is smaller
than most of the image detail. :)

false_dmitrii
 
ThomasH said:
A similar product is the Noise Ninja, which I use following
the recommendation of Rob Galbraith.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/index.asp

Both products manage to provide magnificent results on large,
smooth areas, and... to spoil completely fine details beyond
believe. You called it "looking flat"! Considering the price
of these "filter only" utilities I consider them overpriced.
Your mileage may vary, but I prefer edge analyzing smoothening
filter, such as the one Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro.

http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/is_noiseninja_good

Yikes.

From what I remember of the NN demo it's much like NI, the one I use.
With either program, the 'standard' noise reduction profile is often
overly agressive. In this case you've got too much low and mid
frequency filtering. IMO, both programs can do much better if you spend
the time, maybe 5 minutes, playing with the filter sliders to achieve
the noise reduction level you need.

-Greg
 
Or even better, make your own profile from a featureless area of the
image and tweak that profile to suit your needs.



GC> Yikes.

GC> From what I remember of the NN demo it's much like NI, the one I
GC> use. With either program, the 'standard' noise reduction profile is
GC> often overly agressive. In this case you've got too much low and mid
GC> frequency filtering. IMO, both programs can do much better if you
GC> spend the time, maybe 5 minutes, playing with the filter sliders to
GC> achieve the noise reduction level you need.


GC> -Greg
 
Greg said:
Yikes.

From what I remember of the NN demo it's much like NI, the one I use.
With either program, the 'standard' noise reduction profile is often
overly agressive. In this case you've got too much low and mid

It is also my experience. I usually calculate a reduction profile
from every image and I also play with the degree of reduction.
One annoyance in NN is that it cannot read compressed tiffs.
I have to convert tiffs for the NN pass...

Of course everybody's mileage may vary, but I found NeatImage not
providing any satisfactory results at all, it appeared to me as
a naive primitive tool destroying images, but that might have been
caused by my inability to setup the filter parameters. I saw here
many people bashing or appraising either one these both noise
removal products.

Thomas
 
By "edge analyzing smoothening filter," do you mean the PS or PSP
equivalents to NI/NN, or do you instead mean the simpler "edge
preserving smooth" or equivalent feature? NI and similar filters on

I used the "edge preserving smooth" in these examples.
What is DCNR? I cannot find it in the PSP manual and in
the jasc.com web site search. Maybe its a time to upgrade
my PSP at last??

Thomas
 
SNIP
I usually calculate a reduction profile from every image
and I also play with the degree of reduction.

If you regularly scan from a typical film type on the same scanner,
you can start with a pre-built noise-profile for that combination. You
then only need to change the parameters that determine the amount of
reduction. If you practice a little, you can achieve very good
results. Just don't try to eliminate all graininess, because with film
the graininess is partly detail. One of the first things I usually do
is reduce the luminance reduction from default 60, down to 45 or 50.
Looking at the small channel previews I might reduce Cr and Cb noise
reduction if it takes away too much real detail.
One annoyance in NN is that it cannot read compressed
tiffs.

The Photoshop plug-in version eliminates that inconvenience. It also
allows to apply the noise reduction on a selection or a layer. The
layer NR allows e.g. different amounts for skies than for the rest of
the image. You can also adjust the opacity of a layer to tweak the
effect.
Of course everybody's mileage may vary, but I found
NeatImage not providing any satisfactory results at all,
it appeared to me as a naive primitive tool destroying
images, but that might have been caused by my
inability to setup the filter parameters.

That's a pitty, because it is really a must for the toolbox, IMHO of
course. There is no need for deteriorating the image, but it might
take a bit more practice to stay in control. If applied with some
constraint, it can only improve the image. Just don't overdo it.
By the way, it is also useful with digicam images, allowing to apply
more USM sharpening without making the noise more visible because the
noise was reduced.

Bart
 
Bart said:
If you regularly scan from a typical film type on the same scanner,
you can start with a pre-built noise-profile for that combination. You
then only need to change the parameters that determine the amount of
reduction. If you practice a little, you can achieve very good
results. Just don't try to eliminate all graininess, because with film
the graininess is partly detail.

At the NI site, there is a tutorial on how to build such a profile, and
there is also a target file for download. But I find NI's User's Guide
very confusing when it comes to building and fine tuning a profile. I
never understand what High/Mid/Low noise levels mean. Are they
describing the noise size from fine to coarse? Then there are there RGB
tabs. Are they for info only, or do I have to profile each channel
separately? The red/yellow/green indicator under each slider is yet
another mystery. What are they telling us, and what should we shoot for?
Without an understanding of these, it is a shot in the dark trying to
build a profile.
One of the first things I usually do
is reduce the luminance reduction from default 60, down to 45 or 50.
Looking at the small channel previews I might reduce Cr and Cb noise
reduction if it takes away too much real detail.

In the Noise filter settings window, do you adjust the Noise levels as
well as the Noise reduction amounts? I believe your suggestion is the
latter. There are two sets of adjustments for each: High/Mid/Low
(again!) vs Y/Cr/Cb. How do you get to "small channel previews" to
decide Cr/Cb adjustments?

Thanks.
 
SNIP
At the NI site, there is a tutorial on how to build such a
profile, and there is also a target file for download. But I
find NI's User's Guide very confusing when it comes to
building and fine tuning a profile. I never understand what
High/Mid/Low noise levels mean. Are they describing the
noise size from fine to coarse?

Yes, "High" addresses high spatial frequency noise (which is close to
1 pixel variation in an otherwise smooth area). "Medium" and "Low"
then obviously address larger (multiple pixel) noise, and there is
even a "very low" switch.
Then there are there RGB tabs. Are they for info only, or
do I have to profile each channel separately?

When making a profile, all spatial frequencies are analyzed at the
same time for the RGB input. You can tweak the RGB input data at 9
brightness levels, but if you use the downloadable profile file and
shoot one image of it on the film you use, all levels and colors are
profiled in one go.

Then, NI can either work it's miracles in an RGB space or, and that is
preferable, in a YCrCb space. The latter is preferable because it is
more in line with how the human eye works. Luminance is most important
and it can be addressed seprately.
The red/yellow/green indicator under each slider is yet
another mystery. What are they telling us, and what
should we shoot for?

They are an indicator of the brightnesses per color that have been
selected to build the profile. They allow you to see if there are any
colors/brighnesses not specifically included in the profile. Gaps can
be "auto completed", or filled in by selecting another image from the
same origin.

SNIP
In the Noise filter settings window, do you adjust the
Noise levels as well as the Noise reduction amounts?
I believe your suggestion is the latter.

I basically only use the Noise levels controls if there are artifacts
in the NI'd result. You can e.g. get into trouble with brick
walls/roads or gravel lanes, which may be mistaken for noise, but this
rarely happens. If it happens you can make the artifacts go away and
still reduce noise.
There are two sets of adjustments for each: High/Mid/Low
(again!) vs Y/Cr/Cb. How do you get to "small channel
previews" to decide Cr/Cb adjustments?

In my version, there are three buttons next to the zoom amount
indicator at the top of the preview pane, the middle of which is
called "Component viewer on/off" in the tooltip that appears when you
hover the mouse pointer over it for half a second or so. When you
click on the images of the components, you'll see a before and after
image of the selected component, which allows to access the amount of
detail loss. Then reduce the Noise reduction amounts till you strike a
balance between noise left behind and detail retained. As indicated
above, in pathetic cases, you may want to tweak the noise levels
sliders at the top to remove artifacts, and again fine-tune the
reduction amounts.

That should get you a much lower graininess (also allowing more USM
sharpening), without visible loss of detail.

Hope this helps to reduce confusion as well ;-),
Bart
 
ThomasH said:
I used the "edge preserving smooth" in these examples.
What is DCNR? I cannot find it in the PSP manual and in
the jasc.com web site search. Maybe its a time to upgrade
my PSP at last??

Thomas

Digital Camera Noise Removal is one of the main features of PSP9, which
seems to build on rather than overhaul PSP8's underlying design. It
can do at least as good a job as NI or NN if you don't mind working
exclusively with 8-bit images in sRGB color. It takes quite a bit of
processing power, but so do NI, NN, and Edge Preserving Smooth. The
upgrade cost compares quite favorably with NI and NN if you find the
rest of the new features useful. (There was a recent thread in
comp.graphics.apps.paint-shop-pro that gave good advice on how to apply
the filter--search Google Groups for "digital camera noise reduction".)

Some of the other major PSP9 features are a flexible displacement map
filter; a non-sequential selective undo tool (which at times can be
selective about what it can handle); a "resource manager" to allow
multiple categories within assets such as tubes, textures, patterns,
etc.; RAW camera support; Art Media (virtual paint, chalk, marker,
etc., that interacts with itself and its canvas, in the same vein as
Corel Painter but more limited); and a couple of new vector shape and
text options, plus various tweaks across the board. It shipped early
and buggy but has been patched into better shape. It's not at all
obvious what the future holds for PSP now that Corel owns it--maybe
they'll build on it, maybe they'll strip out the photo-only stuff and
work it into their suites, or maybe nothing will come of the merger in
the end, though they seem to be supporting PSP at present.

false_dmitrii
 
Bart, thanks for the explanations in layman's terms. They are far better
than in the NI user guide. A couple more questions.
SNIP


They are an indicator of the brightnesses per color that have been
selected to build the profile. They allow you to see if there are any
colors/brighnesses not specifically included in the profile. Gaps can
be "auto completed", or filled in by selecting another image from the
same origin.

When generating a rough profile, I often have to decide how many samples
to take before applying "auto complete". Here are some scenarios:

1. After a sample, the indicators under the sliders have all three rgb
colors present. After a few such samples, I apply "auto complete". But
such cases are rare.

2. After a sample, some colors are missing in the indicators. This is
usually what happens. What should I do before applying "auto complete"?

3. After a sample, one of the colors in the indicators have broken
lines. What does that mean and should I include this sample before
applying "auto complete"?

There are also warnings about color clipping. What does that mean and
how should I handle it?

Above each slider there is a color coded %. % of what? How should the
color coding be interpreted?

What is the difference between "auto complete" and "auto fine tune"?
Should both be applied, in what sequence?

NI provides users with lots of features and information. It surely would
help if we know what they mean and how to use them.
SNIP

I basically only use the Noise levels controls if there are artifacts
in the NI'd result. You can e.g. get into trouble with brick
walls/roads or gravel lanes, which may be mistaken for noise, but this
rarely happens. If it happens you can make the artifacts go away and
still reduce noise.

NI recommends to sample only areas without real textures. I try to
follow that, often ending up with very few samples.
In my version, there are three buttons next to the zoom amount
indicator at the top of the preview pane, the middle of which is
called "Component viewer on/off" in the tooltip that appears when you
hover the mouse pointer over it for half a second or so. When you
click on the images of the components, you'll see a before and after
image of the selected component, which allows to access the amount of
detail loss. Then reduce the Noise reduction amounts till you strike a
balance between noise left behind and detail retained. As indicated
above, in pathetic cases, you may want to tweak the noise levels
sliders at the top to remove artifacts, and again fine-tune the
reduction amounts.

That should get you a much lower graininess (also allowing more USM
sharpening), without visible loss of detail.

Knowing how to operate these previews is a great help. NI should put
this in their user's guide. Thanks.
 
SNIP
When generating a rough profile, I often have to decide how
many samples to take before applying "auto complete".
Here are some scenarios:

1. After a sample, the indicators under the sliders have all
three rgb colors present. After a few such samples, I apply
"auto complete". But such cases are rare.

If you previously built a profile and saved it, you can use it on a
scan of the same type of film on the same scanner at the same ppi
setting. You can then use the actual image you want to treat,
optionally fine-tuning the profile, if it has featureless areas that
you could use for analysis. You can also use one (or more) other
image(s) from that roll to improve the profile you have so far. The
graininess is similar throughout the film. That is also useful if your
image has no featureless areas at all.
2. After a sample, some colors are missing in the indicators.
This is usually what happens. What should I do before
applying "auto complete"?

See above. You can use other images as well.
3. After a sample, one of the colors in the indicators have
broken lines. What does that mean and should I include this
sample before applying "auto complete"?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean with broken lines.
If you mean not all brightnesses are sampled, well that's what
autocomplete means; interpolate or even extrapolate to fill in the
missing parts. That would seldom be the case if you shot one target
image in the first place, and build a profile from that.
If on the other hand you mean that the line is irregular, you can
always change the measured values by hand with the sliders. It is
usually caused by some features (e.g. a smooth gradient) where you
should have measured a flat tone.
There are also warnings about color clipping. What does that
mean and how should I handle it?

It means that one or more channels will produce negative, or higher
than possible to encode values. It would mean that colors may be
changed when removing the noise, therefore NI warns that you better
not use that sample.
Above each slider there is a color coded %. % of what? How
should the color coding be interpreted?

The percentage is the positive/negative deviation from average noise
that was measured in the first "Rough noise" sample. It may well be
that dense film areas produce more than average noise levels, and
transparent film areas less. That will be reflected in the slider
settings. The colors of the percentages e.g. tell whether the sample
was aquired automatically, or changed by hand, or changed drastically
between sampling the same tone. The exact meanings are described in
the helpfile.
What is the difference between "auto complete" and "auto fine tune"?
Should both be applied, in what sequence?

Auto fine-tune automatically searches the entire image for featureless
areas, and automagically builds a profile without intervention.
However, as with anything automagic, the algorithm can fail to detect
featureless areas. Therefore you can additionally resample a few areas
to check if things change drastically. You can also use another image
to do that.
That may still leave a few brightnesses unsampled. Auto complete does
inter/extra-polation of those missing brightness values.
NI provides users with lots of features and information. It surely
would
help if we know what they mean and how to use them.

Well, they are described in the help file, but I understand it may be
a bit intimidation in the beginning.
They also have a support forum of their own, you can learn from
questions that others have asked in the past, or you can ask your own.
Of course some prior effort to find the answer in the help file will
speed up the resolution of issues, bacause you can tell what has been
tried and others can take it from there.

SNIP
NI recommends to sample only areas without real textures.
I try to follow that, often ending up with very few samples.

And so you should, but it can still lead to some misinterpretation of
what is noise and what is not.

SNIP
Knowing how to operate these previews is a great help. NI should put
this in their user's guide.

They are open for improvement suggestions.
You basically choose the channel you want to inspect, then
click/release/click release till you've got a feeling for what
changed. If it results in too much detail loss or not enough noise
reduction for a component, change the relevant amounts.

Once you gain some experience, you'll probably see that you will apply
more subtle amounts of reduction, rather than the default amounts.
That will result in an improved but not artifical looking image. Just
don't overdo it, and you'll be fine.

Bart
 
My questions are based on the info that came with NI version 2.x. The
new user's guide for version 4.x answers most of my questions. The 4.x
version also seems to have make significant improvements. Thanks.
 
My questions are based on the info that came with NI version 2.x. The
new user's guide for version 4.x answers most of my questions. The 4.x
version also seems to have make significant improvements. Thanks.

Frequently I keep wondering about such observation: If there
was a significant improvement done in the V4.x of NeatImage,
that there was... a significant problem and fault before.

Well than, this would confirm my assessment of this program,
which I made a while ago: A perfect image destroyer, to be kept
away from my computer! :-)

Thomas
 
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