NCQ?

~misfit~ · Nov 17, 2007

Anyone using a PC with Native Command Queuing (NCQ) enabled? It's supposed
to be a feature of the SATA II standard but it seems that, at least with
Intel, only their latest RAID southbridge (ICH9R) supports it. I didn't know
but I was supposed to do the F6/install RAID drivers on Windows XP setup for
it to work.

I found a work-around here:

http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-hardw...hout-reinstalling-windows-p35-ich9-ich9r.html

and after following the instructions, it seems I have it enabled. However, I
don't notice any difference (not really surprised, I'm told that only
benchmarking will show the difference). I just wondered if others are using
it, what their thoughts are etc. My PC has been rock-solid for a couple
weeks but I got up this morning to a blue-screen. I wondered if it has
anything to do with NCQ. The cooler hasn't fallen off the CPU or anything.

(Still waiting for Thermalright's NZ agents to get back to me about getting
one of these:
http://www.thermalright.com/a_page/main_support_installation_lga775_kit_new.htm I
don't trust those plastic dohickeys at all.)

I've been running Stress Prime since I rebooted and all seems to be well
with the CPU/RAM/Northbridge subsystem which makes the HDD(s) the next
obvious candidates for the cause of the BSOD this morning. Hence my interest
in other people's experience of NCQ. I know that. with it enabled, a power
failure can cause loss of data (if it's in the HDD's cache rather than
writted to platter). However, I get maybe 2 power failures a year here and
image my OS partition on a semi-weekly basis so that's not a big deal.

My HDDs have 16MB cache and NCQ is supposed to be a big advantge. It's one
of the factors that affected my choice of HDDs and motherboard (and cost me
extra).

Thoughts folks?

TIA,

Pecos · Nov 18, 2007

Anyone using a PC with Native Command Queuing (NCQ) enabled? It's
supposed to be a feature of the SATA II standard but it seems that, at
least with Intel, only their latest RAID southbridge (ICH9R) supports
it. I didn't know but I was supposed to do the F6/install RAID drivers
on Windows XP setup for it to work.

I found a work-around here:

http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-hardware/112584-how-enable-ahci-raid-mode
-without-reinstalling-windows-p35-ich9-ich9r.html

and after following the instructions, it seems I have it enabled.
However, I don't notice any difference (not really surprised, I'm told
that only benchmarking will show the difference). I just wondered if
others are using it, what their thoughts are etc. My PC has been
rock-solid for a couple weeks but I got up this morning to a
blue-screen. I wondered if it has anything to do with NCQ. The cooler
hasn't fallen off the CPU or anything.

(Still waiting for Thermalright's NZ agents to get back to me about
getting one of these:
http://www.thermalright.com/a_page/main_support_installation_lga775_kit
_new.htm I don't trust those plastic dohickeys at all.)

I've been running Stress Prime since I rebooted and all seems to be
well with the CPU/RAM/Northbridge subsystem which makes the HDD(s) the
next obvious candidates for the cause of the BSOD this morning. Hence
my interest in other people's experience of NCQ. I know that. with it
enabled, a power failure can cause loss of data (if it's in the HDD's
cache rather than writted to platter). However, I get maybe 2 power
failures a year here and image my OS partition on a semi-weekly basis
so that's not a big deal.

My HDDs have 16MB cache and NCQ is supposed to be a big advantge. It's
one of the factors that affected my choice of HDDs and motherboard
(and cost me extra).

Thoughts folks?

TIA,

Hello ~misfit~,

Look for my reply in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2es8nq

I am using NCQ and Intel Matrix RAID 0 and RAID 1 on two 6L250S0 Maxtor
STATA I hard drives.

I occassionally get blue screens but only during shutdown and that is
most likely related to the Intel 537EP modem drivers I am using.

I haven't lost any important files to the best of my knowledge.

Here is an article about Maxtor NCQ and non NCQ drives:

http://www.hothardware.com/printarticle.aspx?articleid=745

~misfit~ · Nov 18, 2007

Somewhere on teh interweb Pecos typed:

Hello ~misfit~,

Look for my reply in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2es8nq

I am using NCQ and Intel Matrix RAID 0 and RAID 1 on two 6L250S0
Maxtor STATA I hard drives.

I occassionally get blue screens but only during shutdown and that is
most likely related to the Intel 537EP modem drivers I am using.

I haven't lost any important files to the best of my knowledge.

Here is an article about Maxtor NCQ and non NCQ drives:

http://www.hothardware.com/printarticle.aspx?articleid=745

Thanks for that Alan, I just had a read. Cheers.

Alex Mizrahi · Nov 18, 2007

m> Anyone using a PC with Native Command Queuing (NCQ) enabled? It's
m> supposed to be a feature of the SATA II standard but it seems that, at
m> least with Intel, only their latest RAID southbridge (ICH9R) supports
m> it.

it depends, i have ASUS motherboard with additional JMicron IDE/SATA disk
controller -- it seems to have NCQ support in AHCI/RAID mode.

indeed i had to install some drivers for it to work some advanced mode, but
luckily i have two HDDs, so i boot from first and then install drivers for
second.

in RAID mode it showed SATA disk as SCSI one, with TCQ thing enabled. i
guess it was actually NCQ enabled. however i was unable to notice any
difference in benchmarks, so i'm still looking for good benchmarks for this
stuff. (i tried some patterns in iometer so far).

Brett Kline · Nov 18, 2007

~misfit~ said:
Anyone using a PC with Native Command Queuing (NCQ) enabled? It's
supposed to be a feature of the SATA II standard but it seems that, at
least
with Intel, only their latest RAID southbridge (ICH9R) supports it. I
didn't know but I was supposed to do the F6/install RAID drivers on
Windows XP
setup for it to work.

My HDDs have 16MB cache and NCQ is supposed to be a big advantge.
It's one of the factors that affected my choice of HDDs and motherboard
(and
cost me extra).

Thoughts folks?

In a true server environment NCQ may have small advantages over TCQ. On the
desktop I've not see any advantage with the WD1500ADFD nor the Seagate
ST3320620AS irrespective of the SATA controller used. Other results have
shown NCQ to be a disadvantage in single user (desktop) use.

http://www.storagereview.com/WD1500ADFD.sr?page=0,5

"It is all too common for an enthusiast to believe that his or her usage
pattern is closer to that of a server's rather than a desktop's. This idea
arises from a variety of sources- "I multitask a lot," "I hear the hard
drive grinding away," "I deal with lots of huge files," etc. The truth is,
however, that even the heaviest, grinding multitasker experiences disk
access patterns that are far more localized in nature than the truly random
access that servers undergo. Individuals who choose a hard drive based on
its prowess in IOMeter with the belief that their usage habits mimic a
server simply do themselves a disservice. It is measures such as the SR
Office and High-End DriveMarks that most accurately depict a non-server's
response, whether it be the sheer speed experienced under intense disk
access or the "snap and feel" associated with intermittent but bursty
operations."

If you'd like to simulate heavy I/O here's a neat piece of software.
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/iometer/iometer-2006.07.27.win32.i386-setup.exe?download
md5: cc5814fd01a0ef936964d590e4bbce7a

~misfit~ · Nov 18, 2007

Somewhere on teh interweb Brett Kline typed:

In a true server environment NCQ may have small advantages over TCQ.
On the desktop I've not see any advantage with the WD1500ADFD nor the
Seagate ST3320620AS irrespective of the SATA controller used. Other
results have shown NCQ to be a disadvantage in single user (desktop)
use.

http://www.storagereview.com/WD1500ADFD.sr?page=0,5

"It is all too common for an enthusiast to believe that his or her
usage pattern is closer to that of a server's rather than a
desktop's. This idea arises from a variety of sources- "I multitask a
lot," "I hear the hard drive grinding away," "I deal with lots of
huge files," etc. The truth is, however, that even the heaviest,
grinding multitasker experiences disk access patterns that are far
more localized in nature than the truly random access that servers
undergo. Individuals who choose a hard drive based on its prowess in
IOMeter with the belief that their usage habits mimic a server simply
do themselves a disservice. It is measures such as the SR Office and
High-End DriveMarks that most accurately depict a non-server's
response, whether it be the sheer speed experienced under intense
disk access or the "snap and feel" associated with intermittent but
bursty operations."

If you'd like to simulate heavy I/O here's a neat piece of software.
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/iometer/iometer-2006.07.27.win32.i386-setup.exe?download
md5: cc5814fd01a0ef936964d590e4bbce7a

Thanks for that Brett, interesting stuff.

~misfit~ · Nov 19, 2007

Somewhere on teh interweb Alex Mizrahi typed:

m> Anyone using a PC with Native Command Queuing (NCQ) enabled? It's
m> supposed to be a feature of the SATA II standard but it seems
that, at m> least with Intel, only their latest RAID southbridge
(ICH9R) supports m> it.

it depends, i have ASUS motherboard with additional JMicron IDE/SATA
disk controller -- it seems to have NCQ support in AHCI/RAID mode.

I have an Asus board with a JMicron controller installed also. However, the
JMicron chip just controls two eSATA ports and an IDE port. The six internal
SATA ports are all through the ICH9R.

indeed i had to install some drivers for it to work some advanced
mode, but luckily i have two HDDs, so i boot from first and then
install drivers for second.

in RAID mode it showed SATA disk as SCSI one, with TCQ thing enabled.
i guess it was actually NCQ enabled. however i was unable to notice
any difference in benchmarks, so i'm still looking for good
benchmarks for this stuff. (i tried some patterns in iometer so far).

Yeah, external controllers (none-chipset) are often mis-identified by
Windows as SCSI. With that being the case I suppose that it would be
referred to as TCQ instead of NCQ as SCSI doesn't 'do' NCQ.

From what I can gather, depending on who's doing the review, NCQ is either
quite useful or not much good at all. Either way, I paid for a motherboard
that supports it and HDDs that support it so wanted to have it working.

I find it interesting that it's been available on HDDs for a couple year now
yet you have to have Intel's top-end RAID capable southbridge, IHC9R, to
have it natively supported by the Intel chipset. That rules out 90% of the
user base, most of whom would have HDDs capable of NCQ but no motherboard
support. <shrug> Doesn't make sense to me. HDD manufacturers have been
pushing at is a feature for a while now, yet few of their clients will be
able to implement it.

Pecos · Nov 20, 2007

I find it interesting that it's been available on HDDs for a couple
year now yet you have to have Intel's top-end RAID capable
southbridge, IHC9R, to have it natively supported by the Intel
chipset. That rules out 90% of the user base, most of whom would have
HDDs capable of NCQ but no motherboard support. <shrug> Doesn't make
sense to me. HDD manufacturers have been pushing at is a feature for a
while now, yet few of their clients will be able to implement it.

Hi Shaun,

There are a lot of Intel Southbridge chipsets that support AHCI and NCQ:

ICH9R, ICH8M-E, ICH8M, ICH8R, 631xESB/632xESB I/O Controller Hub,
ICH7M, ICH7R, ICH7DH, ICH6R and ICH6M.

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imst/sb/CS-012304.htm

I am using NCQ with my ICH7R based motherboard.

~misfit~ · Nov 20, 2007

Somewhere on teh interweb Pecos typed:

Hi Shaun,

There are a lot of Intel Southbridge chipsets that support AHCI and
NCQ:

ICH9R, ICH8M-E, ICH8M, ICH8R, 631xESB/632xESB I/O Controller Hub,
ICH7M, ICH7R, ICH7DH, ICH6R and ICH6M.

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imst/sb/CS-012304.htm

I am using NCQ with my ICH7R based motherboard.

Interesting. I followed a link in another group (lost it now) to an Intel
page that said only ICH9R supported AHCI.

Still, according to that it's only the 'premium' Intel southbridges that
support it, (the 'R' and 'M' versions). The plain IHC6, IHC7, IHC8 and IHC9
versions don't. Yet (AFAIK) all SATA II HDDs offer support. That's still a
chunk of the user-base who'll have NCQ capable drives on hardware that
doesn't support the feature.

Oh, I've just had a horrible thought. SATA controllers in AHCI made still
support optical drives right? I've just ordered (and paid for) a Pioneer
DVR-212 SATA DVD-RW drive, it should be here tomorrow. I'm betting I'm going
to have trouble, my luck with things like this isn't always good. All 6 of
my internal SATA ports are controlled by the ICH9R. I have an on-board
JMicron controller but that's only for two eSATA ports on the I/O backplate.

Brett Kline · Nov 20, 2007

~misfit~ said:
Yeah, external controllers (none-chipset) are often mis-identified by
Windows as SCSI. With that being the case I suppose that it would be
referred to as TCQ instead of NCQ as SCSI doesn't 'do' NCQ.

It's normal for Windows to see controllers as SCSI devices.

I find it interesting that it's been available on HDDs for a couple
year now yet you have to have Intel's top-end RAID capable
southbridge, IHC9R, to have it natively supported by the Intel
chipset. That rules out 90% of the user base, most of whom would have
HDDs capable of NCQ but no motherboard support. <shrug> Doesn't make
sense to me. HDD manufacturers have been pushing at is a feature for
a while now, yet few of their clients will be able to implement it.

ftp://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/30701303.pdf

With AHCI/RAID enabled both the ICH7 and the ICH7-M support NCQ. (page 191)

ftp://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/31305603.pdf

Same thing with the ICH8. (page 196)

HOWTO: enable AHCI mode after installing Windows
http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=444831

What brand and model of hard drives were you using Shaun? Also, have you
see a BSOD since the first time?