NBTSTAT problem : "-a" works, "-A" not.

[Espronceda]

Hi everybody !
..
Can someone explain this situation : (from a W98 to W2000, same LAN).
..
a) "PING hostname" works OK.
b) "NBTSTAT -a hostname" works fine.
c) "NBTSTAT -A hostip" fails.
..
Local machine is a W98 with IP=9.136.0.183/255.255.255.0
Remote machine is W2000 with ZoneLabs Firewall ... IP=9.136.0.226
..
Here are (Cut&Paste) the results :
..
(A) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

C:\>ping francesc

Pinging francesc [9.136.0.226] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128
Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=128
Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128
Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=128

Ping statistics for 9.136.0.226:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 1ms, Average = 0ms

(B) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

C:\>nbtstat -a francesc


NetBIOS Remote Machine Name Table

Name Type Status
---------------------------------------------
FRANCESC <00> UNIQUE Registered
FRANCESC <20> UNIQUE Registered
WORKGROUP <00> GROUP Registered

MAC Address = 00-09-6B-86-5C-57

(C) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

C:\>nbtstat -A 9.136.0.226

Host not found.
C:\>

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Herb Martin]

Hi everybody !
.
Can someone explain this situation : (from a W98 to W2000, same LAN).
.
a) "PING hostname" works OK.
b) "NBTSTAT -a hostname" works fine.
c) "NBTSTAT -A hostip" fails.

Is it possible that these machines have more than
one Network Protocol in common?

NetBEUI or NWLink ?

Local machine is a W98 with IP=9.136.0.183/255.255.255.0
Remote machine is W2000 with ZoneLabs Firewall ... IP=9.136.0.226
.
Here are (Cut&Paste) the results :
.
(A) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

C:\>ping francesc

Pinging francesc [9.136.0.226] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128
Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=128
Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128
Reply from 9.136.0.226: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=128

Ping statistics for 9.136.0.226:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 1ms, Average = 0ms

(B) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

C:\>nbtstat -a francesc


NetBIOS Remote Machine Name Table

Name Type Status
---------------------------------------------
FRANCESC <00> UNIQUE Registered
FRANCESC <20> UNIQUE Registered
WORKGROUP <00> GROUP Registered

MAC Address = 00-09-6B-86-5C-57

(C) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

C:\>nbtstat -A 9.136.0.226

Host not found.
C:\>

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???

 

[Espronceda]

You mean you want to know all the protocols the W98 machine has ?
If so, I shall tell you on Monday !
Thanks !

 

[Herb Martin]

You mean you want to know all the protocols the W98 machine has ?

Not really, I am only referring to "network protocols" like
IP, IPX (NWLink), NetBEUI, Appletalk (unlikely), etc.

If so, I shall tell you on Monday !

If there is a common protocol other than IP then things
you don't expect may connect.

 

[Espronceda]

Hi ! Here's Monday's continuation ...
..
On W98, let's say the "origin" of the NBTSTAT commands,
we have ( "Newtrok" icon + "Properties" ) :
..
*) TCPIP
*) NETBEUI
..
On the other side ("FRANCESC" computer) we have a W2000 ... with Protocols :
..
*) TCP/IP
*) IBM LLC2
*) Network Monitor driver
*) AEGIS Protocol (IEEE 802.1x)
..
If I remove "NETBEUI" from W98, shall this help ???
..
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Herb Martin]

Hi ! Here's Monday's continuation ...
.
On W98, let's say the "origin" of the NBTSTAT commands,
we have ( "Newtrok" icon + "Properties" ) :
.
*) TCPIP
*) NETBEUI
.

.
*) TCP/IP
*) IBM LLC2
*) Network Monitor driver
*) AEGIS Protocol (IEEE 802.1x)
.
If I remove "NETBEUI" from W98, shall this help ???

I don't really know that it will "Help" -- remember we were
trying to explain why some name resolution was intermittent
or only partial broken.

If you remove the NetBEUI it may break completely and
that might not be "better".

On the other hand, completely broken will cause you to
fix the REAL problems <grin>.

For Win9x IP (and really for Win2003) you need NetBIOS
to work -- NetBIOS over IP works if you have a single
subnet, OR if you use WINS server.

Make all machines (including the servers, DCs, and even
the WINS servers) clients of the WINS server.

Also fix you DNS -- make every machine a client of ONLY
the iternal DNS server(s) if you have them.

 

[Michael D. Ober]

Do you have a WINS server on your network? Windows 98's TCPIP stack is
dependent on WINS for some functions, specificially any that require NetBIOS
over TCP (NBT). This means that NBTStat won't work properly on any DOS
based version of Windows (Windows 3.x, 95, 98, ME) without a WINS server.

Mike Ober.

Hi ! Here's Monday's continuation ...
.
On W98, let's say the "origin" of the NBTSTAT commands,
we have ( "Newtrok" icon + "Properties" ) :
.
*) TCPIP
*) NETBEUI
.

 

[Espronceda]

Hi everybody, and thanks for the help !
..
Herb : neither do I like to remove NETBEUI ...
I can NOT make my machine a WINS Server user ... see bellow.
The machine IS a DNS client ...
..
Michael - No, I would say we do NOT have a WINS Server ...
Otherwise : how can I know ?
All I did was to use "WINIPCFG" on the W98,
and "Primary DNS Server" field is empty.
..
I know we use DNS, and the "DNS Servers" field is filled up in the
WINIPCFG window ....
..
You say "NBTSTAT wont work properly on DOS based version of W98" ...
Where did you get this information from ????
..
Thanks !
..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Herb Martin]

Hi everybody, and thanks for the help !
.
Herb : neither do I like to remove NETBEUI ...
I can NOT make my machine a WINS Server user ... see bellow.

Why not? If you have the "wrong" IP stack on it change it.

You cannot expect an IP client to work properly for NetBIOS
in a routed (multiple subnet) IP network UNLESS it is a WINS
client.

(Ok, you could create, distribute, maintain etc an LMHOSTS
file but that is much harder than doing the same for a WINS
server.)

The machine IS a DNS client ...

Irrelevant to NetBIOS name resolution and some other NetBIOS
related stuff.

Michael - No, I would say we do NOT have a WINS Server ...
Otherwise : how can I know ?
All I did was to use "WINIPCFG" on the W98,
and "Primary DNS Server" field is empty.

Then the machine is not a DNS server either.

You must list a DNS server as Preferred (Primary is server
side concept) or Alternate for it to BE a DNS client.

Unless this client is configured through DHCP but that is
the same setting.

I know we use DNS, and the "DNS Servers" field is filled up in the
WINIPCFG window ....

I though you just said it was empty?

You say "NBTSTAT wont work properly on DOS based version of W98" ...
Where did you get this information from ????

(I am not involved in this one. <grin>)

 

[Michael D. Ober]

NBTSTAT stands for NetBIOS over TCP Status. If you don't have either a
LMHOSTS table showing all the machines on your network or a WINS Server,
NetBIOS over TCP simply won't work. In one of your earlier posts, you said
that ping <name> works. This tells me that you have a working hosts file or
DNS server. Ping uses ICMP, which is an internet protocol running over IP.
NBT was the IBM Lan Manager protocol for driving NetBIOS over TCP and
NBTSTAT is the program used to test NBT connections. Microsoft acquired
this technology during the OS/2 developement and modified it to work with
NETBEUI (NetBIOS Enhanced User Interface). NBT does not use DNS. It uses
the Windows Internet Name Service (WINS). Thus, without either a LMHOSTS
file containing the IP addresses of all your network resources or a WINS
server, NBT will not resolve names.

All versions of windows prior to Windows 2000 require a DNS integrated WINS
server to be fully network operational in a TCP/IP based network. MS
finally integrated the NBT name lookups into the local machine's DNS
resolver starting in Windows 2000. As a result, without WINS, NBTStat -a
<name> simply won't work.

As for not being able to install WINS on your Windows 2000 server, it takes
about 30 minutes to install and configure.

Mike Ober.

 

[Herb Martin]

NBTSTAT stands for NetBIOS over TCP Status. If you don't have either a
LMHOSTS table showing all the machines on your network or a WINS Server,
NetBIOS over TCP simply won't work.

The above is incorrect. NetBIOS on a single subnet
will work just fine without either of those.

It will even work without them on a routed network but
it will not work correctly -- it will be incompletely able
to resolve names.

In one of your earlier posts, you said
that ping <name> works. This tells me that you have a working hosts file or
DNS server.

Usually, but it could in theory be resolving by NetBIOS
broadcast so don't reject that possibility, especially when
the full name fails.

Microsoft DNS resolution (ping proceeds this way) may
use NetBIOS methods to assist when the DNS methods fail.

Ping uses ICMP, which is an internet protocol running over IP.

Yes, and it may resolve using NetBIOS broadcast but that implies
problems with the DNS resolution which is tried first.

NETBEUI (NetBIOS Enhanced User Interface). NBT does not use DNS.

This is incorrect too. It is quite possible that NetBIOS
resolution also uses DNS to supplement itself.
(There is a check box on the IP->WINS property tab.

It uses
the Windows Internet Name Service (WINS).

Only if it is a WINS client. And then almost all of them use
Broadcasts as well. Some will fail over to DNS methods.

Thus, without either a LMHOSTS
file containing the IP addresses of all your network resources or a WINS
server, NBT will not resolve names.

Not true (see above.)

All versions of windows prior to Windows 2000 require a DNS integrated WINS
server to be fully network operational in a TCP/IP based network.

That's just not true either. DNS to WINS integration is a useful
supplement in some environements but not required to make older
clients and servers work.

It's main function is in a legacy network where you wish to resolve
(usuall client) names that are only dynamically registered in WINS
but you wish to use DNS>

But for staticly registered Servers or even for DHCP clients offering
peer services on the same subnetwork it is not necessary.

MS
finally integrated the NBT name lookups into the local machine's DNS
resolver starting in Windows 2000. As a result, without WINS, NBTStat -a
<name> simply won't work.

Windows clients have long been able to supplement one
method (DNS, NetBIOS) with the other.

As for not being able to install WINS on your Windows 2000 server, it takes
about 30 minutes to install and configure.

Actually it takes less than five and seldom needs any
serious configuration in a small network or for initial
use.

If you need to REPLICATE more than a few WINS servers
it will take a few minutes for each pair.

 

[Espronceda]

I Am sorry : the empty field is the "Primary WINS Server", not
"DNS"...
when I use WINIPCFG at the Windows 98 ...
And the "filled" field, is, of course, the DNS Servers ...
..
So, the conclusion is that I NEED to have a WINS Server configured if
I want to use "names" instead of IP numbers ???
..
THANKS !
..
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Herb Martin]

I Am sorry : the empty field is the "Primary WINS Server", not
"DNS"...
when I use WINIPCFG at the Windows 98 ...
And the "filled" field, is, of course, the DNS Servers ...
.
So, the conclusion is that I NEED to have a WINS Server configured if
I want to use "names" instead of IP numbers ???

If you want to use "NetBIOS NAME" instead of number AND
you have most than one subnet (internally) then yes, you must
use a WINS servers.

You do not need a WINS server for resolving DNS names
unless you DNS is broken, and then the WINS server is
only going to help for your internal machines, not on the
same subnet.

 

[Espronceda]

OK, I will reverse my question then ...
..
What services DO to have WINS working ?
..
I have "learned" that "NBTSTAT" requires WINS,
I have found that "NET VIEW" does require WINS also ...
I read thet "My Network Places" require WINS also ...
..
Some more ???
..
Thanx !
..

 

[Herb Martin]

OK, I will reverse my question then ...
.
What services DO to have WINS working ?
.
I have "learned" that "NBTSTAT" requires WINS,

That is only partially true -- NBTStat is a NetBIOS program
(for IP networks) that will work with or without WINS if
NetBIOS is running.

It will show both broadcast resolutions (non-WINS) and
server lookups (WINS client).

I have found that "NET VIEW" does require WINS also ...

No, net view can also work based on broadcasts.

The key to WINS is this: IF you need NetBIOS name resolution
you will need WINS IF you have more than one subnet.

I read thet "My Network Places" require WINS also ...

Again, it's NetBIOS that is needed -- and WINS if you have
more than one subnet.

Some more ???

Anything that resolves NetBIOS names across subnets.


Also note, WINS server will not do what you need unless
(ALL of) your machines are set as WINS clients -- this means
servers too, including even the WINS server.

If they are not WINS clients they will not be in the WINS
database when you look up their name.

 

[Espronceda]

..
a) I can NOT install a WINS server at my office ... 20 machines !
..
b) my situation is REVERSED :

1) nbtstat -a francesc => works
2) nbtstat -A 9.136.0.226 => does NOT work
..
There is NO problem with the Name resolution .. IT WORKS !
..
Ciao !
..

 

[Herb Martin]

.
a) I can NOT install a WINS server at my office ... 20 machines !

It is not about "number of machines" but about having more than
one subnet.

With 20 machines you likely have only one subnet however.

Perhaps not though, if you have a separate subnet for wireless
and for wired computers.

If you have more than one subnet you have a practical need for
a WINS server.

Since you own Windows server, WINS server is practically free.
And trivial to setup if you only need one, or perhaps two.

b) my situation is REVERSED :

1) nbtstat -a francesc => works
2) nbtstat -A 9.136.0.226 => does NOT work

Is the address of "francesc" 9.136.0.226 ?

When you do the "name", what address appears near
the top (for Node IPAddress or equivalent line)?

 

[Phillip Windell]

The version of Nbtstat matters. Some of them "-a" works for everything and
"-A" is not required, but the built in "Help" [nbtstat /?] probably hasn't
been updated since electricity was invented and may not be correct.

In all the machines I have tried here, I can use "-a" for everything and
never need to use
"-A".