motherboard, video, memory questions

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The Quintessential Man...

I'm attempting to construct a PC around an ASUS Vintage V2-AH2 AM2 with
onboard GeForce 6150 video (DVI.) A colleague of mine has cautioned me
against onboard video in general, but did not say why. I would like to
get by with the onboard Video if I could, I am sort of pushing my budget
on this thing (not to mention venturing into uncharted territory - the
last PC I built was a Cyrex PR200 and things apparently have changed a
bit...) Are there any known issues with onboard video in general or
with this board in particular?

Also I noticed that some of the different brands of the DDR2 memory
listed different voltage requirements, but I did not see any mention of
this on the ASUS V2-AH2 product website. Is this a consideration or do
the boards accommodate this?

FYI, I am building a workstation for the home; wife will be web surfing
using ms office apps, I will occasionally be using it for Corel
Draw/Photo/Paint.

I am open to any words of wit, wisdom, or advice (as one would have to
be when posting in Usenet... ;))

Thanks
John
 
The Quintessential Man... said:
I'm attempting to construct a PC around an ASUS Vintage V2-AH2 AM2 with
onboard GeForce 6150 video (DVI.) A colleague of mine has cautioned me
against onboard video in general, but did not say why. I would like to
get by with the onboard Video if I could, I am sort of pushing my budget
on this thing (not to mention venturing into uncharted territory - the
last PC I built was a Cyrex PR200 and things apparently have changed a
bit...) Are there any known issues with onboard video in general or
with this board in particular?

Also I noticed that some of the different brands of the DDR2 memory
listed different voltage requirements, but I did not see any mention of
this on the ASUS V2-AH2 product website. Is this a consideration or do
the boards accommodate this?

FYI, I am building a workstation for the home; wife will be web surfing
using ms office apps, I will occasionally be using it for Corel
Draw/Photo/Paint.

I am open to any words of wit, wisdom, or advice (as one would have to
be when posting in Usenet... ;))

for those purposes OB video will be fine
 
The Quintessential Man... said:
I'm attempting to construct a PC around an ASUS Vintage V2-AH2 AM2 with
onboard GeForce 6150 video (DVI.) A colleague of mine has cautioned me
against onboard video in general, but did not say why. I would like to
get by with the onboard Video if I could, I am sort of pushing my budget
on this thing (not to mention venturing into uncharted territory - the
last PC I built was a Cyrex PR200 and things apparently have changed a
bit...) Are there any known issues with onboard video in general or with
this board in particular?

In general, it's a good idea not to use onboard video. Even if you aren't a
gamer, the onboard video will steal ram used for other applications, which
slows the system down. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with using
onboard video as long as you remember that your RAM quantity (available to
OS and applications) is decreased. So if you think that 1Gig (for example)
would be "enough" RAM, you'd better plan on starting with 1.5Gigs or 2Gigs.
But then, by the time you've paid to add the extra RAM, you probably could
have afforded to buy a decent PCI-Express video card with onboard ram.

To see what I mean, you can take your original spec'd system and add this to
it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227125
And that will make up for the RAM that will be stolen by the onboard video

Or, you can take your original spec'd system and add this to it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814125208
And you'll end up with much better performance for about the same price

Just be sure if you do buy a separate video card, that the RAM on it is not
"shared", as then you will be back where you started! Some are advertised
as 256MB available, 64MB onboard. Ummmm, no, that's only 64MB available,
and it steals the rest, just like onboard video!
Also I noticed that some of the different brands of the DDR2 memory listed
different voltage requirements, but I did not see any mention of this on
the ASUS V2-AH2 product website. Is this a consideration or do the boards
accommodate this?

The short answer is, if you have to ask about voltage level of RAM, then you
don't need to know the answer. :)

You can thank the overclocking crowd for this bit of RAM voltage confusion.
All RAM has default timings that can be achieved quite comfortably at
default voltage levels. And, that is exactly what the RAM *should* use, if
the BIOS properly recognizes the RAM and adjusts accordingly. But most ram
can be overclocked a bit, by turning down certain timing levels. And, those
who do overclock RAM have better luck doing so if they up the voltage a bit.
Consequently, RAM is often judged by how well it overclocks, at what voltage
level (lower voltage is better, if all else is the same). RAM manufacturers
know that many of their consumers are smart, so they have started
advertising RAM timing specs based on X voltage level. Some of the
under-handed RAM manufacturers have spec'd their ram at aggressive timings,
but conveniently fail to mention that they only achieved such an overclock
with a higher (than default) voltage level.

But you shouldn't be overclocking anyway, so ignore the voltage level. Just
buy whatever your mainboard specs call for, such as DDR2 800, and get a good
brand of RAM like OCZ or Kingston or Crucial. -Dave


FYI, I am building a workstation for the home; wife will be web surfing
using ms office apps, I will occasionally be using it for Corel
Draw/Photo/Paint.

In that case, you especially want to steer clear of onboard video. But the
geforce 6600 I referenced above should work great. -Dave
 
JAD said:
for those purposes OB video will be fine

Onboard sucks for gaming or 3D applications. But is fine for 2D apps like
the ones mentioned.

The voltage issue is tricky. It seems some vendors sell DDR2-800 that
really needs a little extra voltage. But not every motherboard is
an "enthusiast/overclocker special". Some boards are intended for
office applications or businesses. You would not expect those boards
to have Vdimm voltage adjustments.

To add "insult to injury", some boards don't apply enough Vdimm so that
the enthusiast RAM can work at first POST. Which means on occasion, a
user has to use RAM rated at slower speed, as the SPD will tell the
motherboard to use a slower clock, and that will work with less
applied voltage.

So, yes, there can be issues with using performance memoty, on any
recent DDR2 board. Sometimes fixed with BIOS update, sometimes with
the user bootstrapping the process with a single, cheap DIMM.

The Asus product page has a QVL (a RAM listing). The really humorous
part for your barebones, is I could not view the PDF document (no
text appeared), until I loaded the Chinese Traditional Fonts package
from Adobe for the Acrobat Reader. Then the listing showed up. While
you could buy your RAM from that list, in the past at least, finding
any of the products in the list has been difficult.

Another practice I notice Asus is adopting, is the barebones are not
getting proper manuals any more. I cannot recommend the purchase of
gear that does not document the BIOS settings. Knowing what is in the
BIOS in advance, helps users decide whether it is safe to buy a product.
For example, as a user, I'd be tickled pink if there was a Vdimm
adjustment in the BIOS, because then I could buy two expensive DDR2-800
sticks that run at higher voltage, one cheapo 256MB DDR2-400 stick, just
to bootstrap the computer, and know that I could adjust Vdimm so the
enthusiast memory would post. But without a proper manual, who knows ?

I went to the JEDEC site, to see if DDR2-800 has been granted an
exception for operating voltage, but DDR2 specs are not available for
free download. I think it would cost $127 to get the answer. The
normal DDR2 voltage range is 1.8V +/- 0.1V. But some enthusiast
RAM can run at up to 2.3V. Some motherboards have been known to have
"stock" Vdimm designs, meaning there is no "bailout" mechanism for the
user.

Your processor has the memory interface on it. Your processor is AM2.
I'd like to tell you what the max memory voltage is, on the processor
side of things, but the last time I looked, there wasn't even an AM2
spec available on the AMD site.

So I guess, proceed in ignorance. Have fun doing compatibility testing
for the computer industry (/sarcasm). If your local vendor is an
obliging soul, maybe he will allow testing that the barebones
comes up, with whatever RAM you want to buy. Otherwise, stick with
some DDR2-533, as maybe it follows the rules, whatever those rulse
might be.

On the download page for the V2-AH2, several of the BIOS have
release notes that say:

"Enhance compatibility with some memory sticks"

and you know what that means. It means Caveat Emptor, upgrade your
BIOS - somehow.

Paul
 
In general, it's a good idea not to use onboard video.

Wrong, as always.
Even if you aren't a gamer, the onboard video will steal ram used for other applications, which
slows the system down.

No it doesnt when you have enough physical ram.
Having said that, there is nothing wrong with using onboard video as long as you remember that
your RAM quantity (available to OS and applications) is decreased.

Normally its decreased by so little its completely academic.
So if you think that 1Gig (for example) would be "enough"
RAM, you'd better plan on starting with 1.5Gigs or 2Gigs.

Completely off with the ****ing fairys now when
most onboard video doesnt use more than 64M.
But then, by the time you've paid to add the extra RAM, you probably could have afforded to buy a
decent PCI-Express video card with onboard ram.

Or you can have a clue and notice that the 1G
will be fine for most personal desktop use.
To see what I mean, you can take your original spec'd system and add this to it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227125
And that will make up for the RAM that will be stolen by the onboard video

Pathetic, really. He's trying to minimise the cost, stupid.
Or, you can take your original spec'd system and add this to it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814125208
And you'll end up with much better performance for about the same price

See above.
Just be sure if you do buy a separate video card, that the RAM on it
is not "shared", as then you will be back where you started! Some
are advertised as 256MB available, 64MB onboard. Ummmm, no, that's only 64MB available, and it
steals the rest, just like onboard video!

Pathetic, really.
The short answer is, if you have to ask about voltage level of RAM,
then you don't need to know the answer. :)
You can thank the overclocking crowd for this bit of RAM voltage
confusion. All RAM has default timings that can be achieved quite
comfortably at default voltage levels. And, that is exactly what the
RAM *should* use, if the BIOS properly recognizes the RAM and adjusts
accordingly. But most ram can be overclocked a bit, by turning down
certain timing levels. And, those who do overclock RAM have better
luck doing so if they up the voltage a bit. Consequently, RAM is
often judged by how well it overclocks, at what voltage level (lower
voltage is better, if all else is the same). RAM manufacturers know
that many of their consumers are smart, so they have started
advertising RAM timing specs based on X voltage level. Some of the
under-handed RAM manufacturers have spec'd their ram at aggressive
timings, but conveniently fail to mention that they only achieved
such an overclock with a higher (than default) voltage level.
But you shouldn't be overclocking anyway, so ignore the voltage
level. Just buy whatever your mainboard specs call for, such as DDR2
800, and get a good brand of RAM like OCZ or Kingston or Crucial.
In that case, you especially want to steer clear of onboard video.

Wrong, as always.
But the geforce 6600 I referenced above should work great.

He doesnt need it for those apps.
 
Rod Speed said:
Wrong, as always.


No it doesnt when you have enough physical ram.

Bollocks. It does not matter how much physical RAM you have, the important
point to note is that your CPU RAM is being muxed ( sorry - multiplexed or
time shared) with the requirements of the video controller. This means that
the CPU will be held up frequently as the video controller has priority over
the RAM and so will slow down the processor. Not important for most Officey
type apps but a real killer when you want to do anything
taxing/useful/entertaining.
Normally its decreased by so little its completely academic.

see above

Completely off with the ****ing fairys now when
most onboard video doesnt use more than 64M.


whatever ...
 
Bollocks.

We'll see...
It does not matter how much physical RAM you have, the important point to note is that your CPU
RAM is being muxed ( sorry - multiplexed or time shared) with the requirements of the video
controller.

Wrong again.
This means that the CPU will be held up frequently as the video controller has priority over the
RAM and so will slow down the processor.

Wrong again.

And completely trivial to prove thats crap using benchmarks.
Not important for most Officey type apps but a real killer
when you want to do anything taxing/useful/entertaining.

Pity he isnt.
see above

See above.
whatever ...

In spades with you silly shit.
 
The Quintessential Man... said:
I'm attempting to construct a PC around an ASUS Vintage V2-AH2 AM2

I wonder whether "attempting" means you have already bought it.
A colleague of mine has cautioned me against onboard video in
general,

That's because generally onboard video stinks.
FYI, I am building a workstation for the home; wife will be web
surfing using ms office apps, I will occasionally be using it for
Corel Draw/Photo/Paint.

Not good for onboard video.

You can test easily enough by trying a decent video card from
another system, but that's assuming you already bought the
mainboard. Otherwise you might want to avoid the onboard video and
spend slightly less on the mainboard.
 
Lorne Mower said:
Bollocks. It does not matter how much physical RAM you have, the important
point to note is that your CPU RAM is being muxed ( sorry - multiplexed or
time shared) with the requirements of the video controller. This means that
the CPU will be held up frequently as the video controller has priority over
the RAM and so will slow down the processor. Not important for most Officey
type apps but a real killer when you want to do anything
taxing/useful/entertaining.

some people use OB video for gaming....do I recommend it? No but it is and can be done with OB
video and sound on a PIII 1 gig. So please refrain from the doom saying because its exagerated.
 
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