More on Poor pics from Photoshop on his Alps MD printer

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gecko

Thanks, all you guys. My friend seems to making some progress, and
now says:

After working so hard to get the Alps working, I've been working on
the project for which it was intended. I kept running test prints
until I could accurately judge the difference between what I saw on
the monitor and what I got from the printer. Fortunately, the color
was quite close. But the density from the printer was much lighter
than the monitor, which also affected color saturation. I made 20 4x6
of the game for an album and a large one for the frame with his
jersey. I made a deep frame and sandwiched the jersey between glass
with the big team photo across the bottom of the jersey. Held it
together with a bunch of glaziers points. Came out rather nice.

Proper cropping is the most critical element in a photo. I wasn't
using more than 20 percent of some of the photos.Resolution suffered
greatly from such heavy cropping. I won't understand why until I print
some I took under better control. 600 dpi isn't too bad when you're
utilizing the entire image. But 20 percent of the image yields 120
dpi.

The Alps still gives the best color of anything I've seen. It will
help when I know what I'm doing. I've got to find out more about
dithering. A manual shows an example where dithering makes a
noticeable improvement in acuity. But dithering --- which prints
different colors close together to produce a different visual hue ---
is not something you need for 256 colors, which the Alps is supposed
to provide.

Maybe there's an Alps group out there somewhere dedicated to keeping
these abandoned marvels going and sharing information.

How about it? Anyone know of one?

Gecko
 
gecko said:
The Alps still gives the best color of anything I've seen. It will
help when I know what I'm doing. I've got to find out more about
dithering. A manual shows an example where dithering makes a
noticeable improvement in acuity. But dithering --- which prints
different colors close together to produce a different visual hue ---
is not something you need for 256 colors, which the Alps is supposed
to provide.

Yes, you do need dithering for 256 colors. 256 colors is an
extraordinarily limited amount; that's very poor color fidelity indeed.
Remember that each shade of the same color counts as a different color.
 
Yes, you do need dithering for 256 colors. 256 colors is an
extraordinarily limited amount; that's very poor color fidelity indeed.
Remember that each shade of the same color counts as a different color.


My friend responds:

The thing about color --- particularly about fine differences between
hues of color --- is that it is completely subjective. Film --- and I
suppose CCDs as well --- is not subjective. Color depends entirely on
the color temperature of the light. Try taking a color photo with
fluorescent light to see the difference. The curious thing is that we
have color memory; if we know what color a thing should be, we will
see it that way whatever the color temperature of the light. Whites
look white to us because we know they are white. But white is made to
appear more white by tinting it most generally with blue, but also
with yellow and even black. When all the other colors were perfectly
balanced, Keeping bride's dresses from appearing blue in photos was a
challenge for me because of the optical whitening added to the fabric.

So, for purposes where actual color is not known or where critical
rendition of actual color is relatively unimportant, 256 colors will
suffice. For 4x6 snapshots, 256 is good enough. The toughest challenge
for film and CCDs is good skin tones. For a large print of a head
shot, 256 colors are inadequate. Dithering is a poor substitute for
the infinite modeling provided by film. But I shall need to learn to
apply the finest dithering the Alps is capable of to be happy with its
600 dpi resolution. I thought that my MD-4000 was capable of 1200 dpi,
but that may be for scanning only.

-Gecko
 
gecko said:
My friend responds:

Why the intermediary in this matter? Is it that you are actually your
"friend" or that your friend doesn't know how to use newsgroups?
The thing about color --- particularly about fine differences between
hues of color --- is that it is completely subjective. Film --- and I
suppose CCDs as well --- is not subjective. Color depends entirely on
the color temperature of the light. Try taking a color photo with
fluorescent light to see the difference. The curious thing is that we
have color memory; if we know what color a thing should be, we will
see it that way whatever the color temperature of the light. Whites
look white to us because we know they are white. But white is made to
appear more white by tinting it most generally with blue, but also
with yellow and even black. When all the other colors were perfectly
balanced, Keeping bride's dresses from appearing blue in photos was a
challenge for me because of the optical whitening added to the fabric.

Not sure how that's relevant, the eye can still discern the fine differences
in only 256 colors whether the hues are cool, warm or just right.
So, for purposes where actual color is not known or where critical
rendition of actual color is relatively unimportant, 256 colors will
suffice. For 4x6 snapshots, 256 is good enough. The toughest challenge
for film and CCDs is good skin tones. For a large print of a head
shot, 256 colors are inadequate. Dithering is a poor substitute for
the infinite modeling provided by film. But I shall need to learn to
apply the finest dithering the Alps is capable of to be happy with its
600 dpi resolution. I thought that my MD-4000 was capable of 1200 dpi,
but that may be for scanning only.

In my small experience, *any* image with large areas of similar color
suffers from the limitations of 256 colors. I'd venture that that has a more
negative effect than the limitations of 234 dpi. Of course, if you're
looking to output large format, both issues will doom you to some extent.
 
Why the intermediary in this matter? Is it that you are actually your
"friend" or that your friend doesn't know how to use newsgroups?

I read you. Yes - my friend is real, and lives some 200 miles from me
which makes things interesting. No - he doesn't know how to use news
groups, and frankly that would have its own problem(s). Sorry to
provoke anyone here. I am just trying to help. I think this will be
the last for obvious reasons.

Not sure how that's relevant, the eye can still discern the fine differences
in only 256 colors whether the hues are cool, warm or just right.


In my small experience, *any* image with large areas of similar color
suffers from the limitations of 256 colors. I'd venture that that has a more
negative effect than the limitations of 234 dpi. Of course, if you're
looking to output large format, both issues will doom you to some extent.

Thanks for your response anyway.

-Gecko
 
gecko said:
So, for purposes where actual color is not known or where critical
rendition of actual color is relatively unimportant, 256 colors will
suffice.

Actually, no, it won't. You can see this in Photoshop; convert an image
to 256 color mode and see how you like the results.

Even $49 inkjet printers can reproduce thousands of colors. Again, each
different shade of color counts as a different color. For the purposes
of something like a printer, a black and white image contains 256
colors, because each shade of each hue counts as a different color.
 
Actually, no, it won't. You can see this in Photoshop; convert an image
to 256 color mode and see how you like the results.

Even $49 inkjet printers can reproduce thousands of colors. Again, each
different shade of color counts as a different color. For the purposes
of something like a printer, a black and white image contains 256
colors, because each shade of each hue counts as a different color.

I'll pass it on,

Thanks

-Gecko
 
I'm afraid there are many incorrect statements and conclusions in your
friend's commentary and I'd like to clarify them.

We do not see white as white because we know it is. Our eyes have a
chemical "color balancing" system which corrects for color temperature
up to a point. Our cones, which are responsible for our color vision
come in three versions, interestingly, sensitive to red, green and blue,
which are the primary colors of light. We have the most green cones,
followed by red and then blue. As we age we lose more blue cones due to
damage by UV exposure, and for most of us our lens yellows to a fairly
deep orange by the time we are in our 60s. This actually helps filter
out UV to protect the few blue cones we have, but between the loss of
blue cones and the orange lenses, our blue perception is quite poor as
we age. This in part explains why old people wear purple clothing,
think it is brown, and older ladies tend to wear blue hair dye, thinking
it is just toning down the intensity of the white hair.

Anyway, each cone produces chemical set points, and the receptors
saturate to the predominant color and become less sensitive to it. If
you want to see this in action, to prove it isn't just what we "expect"
try these there experiments.

1) Go into a room which is lighted with a strong color lamp, such as a
red lamp. Wait until your cones adjust so that the red begins to "fade"
and the colors in the room begin to become more "normalized" (they never
will fully because simply put a red light source doesn't contain the
full spectrum, or anything close to it, and since color of objects is
perceived by reflection of certain spectral wavelengths, if they aren't
there, the color just isn't visible (an example might be a dark green
piece of paper)). Red light emits almost no green, and therefore the
paper will look nearly black. Anyway, once your vision has acclimated
to the red bias go into something approaching white light and notice how
green it is. Basically, in an attempt to compensate for the overly red
bias, the green cones produced excess chemistry to try to readjust for
that bias.

2) Test two. Go out on a nice sunset night and look at the horizon or
sunset sky (do not look directly into the sun, even at sunset!). Once
your eyes have accommodated to that color balance, which is quite red,
turn around so your back is to the sunset. Now, when no one is looking
at you (if you are easily embarrassed) bend over and look at the sunset
sky, this time through your legs. Suddenly the colors will be much
brighter and red will be stronger. No, it is not because the chemicals
spilled, but close... You have now reversed the area of the retina
exposed to the sunset sky colors. The area which was probably dark and
silhouetted ground has not become the area where the sunset sky is being
perceived, and that area hasn't been saturated with reds.

3) Find a graphic image in a book, one with many primary and secondary
color areas boldly showing. Things like stripes of circles of color are
good. Stare at it for 30-45 sections and try not to move where your
eyes are looking during that period. Now, rapidly take a look at some
well lighted white paper with nothing else on it, and you should notice
something referred to as an "afterimage" and that image will have
"negative color" relative to the colors you were staring at. Dark
portions will be brighter, and vice versa, Greens will look red and vice
versa, etc.

Although optical dyes can create color casts on the white wedding dress,
since they are UV sensitive and our eyes generally are not, but film is,
that is why it is so much more obvious when film is involved.

As for color being subjective, each of our eyes sees and perceives color
differently. I have one eye which is considerably warming than the other
in how it sees light and color.

Now, as to dithering and the ALPS printers. I am assuming he is using
the dye sub dye material and not the hot wax semi opaque "inks".

Dye sub technology cannot be compared spec-wise to inkjet or laserjet,
because the technologies mean very different things.

Dye sub prints are referred to as continuous tone. This means that for
all intents and purposes the number of variations in color depth and
density are such that the human eye won't normally see bands or breaks
in the graduated color or density. The way a dye sub product works is
the head heats a small area of dye which is literally vaporized and made
gaseous. It then reforms as a solid within a specialized usually
plastic coated receiving surface on the print. Most dye sub printers
use 64, 128 or 256 levels of heat to determine how much of the dye gets
vaporized off the ribbon and redeposited onto the print. Most dye subs
used three ribbons to create all their colors, Cyan, magenta and Yellow
(plus a protective clear UV coating) some also provide a black ribbon
or panel. In the case of a dye sub head that provides 256 levels of
heat per color, that's 256 density levels for each of C, M and Y, or a
total of 16.8 million colors. Since the dyes are transparent they are
laid right on top of each other. Each dot on a dye sub when looked at
in detail usually has a soft fading peripheral edge to help them to
blend with each other well. Since each "dot" corresponds directly to one
pixel of data, these printers only need 200 to about 400 dpi.

Inkjet printers and to some extend color laser printers use a very
different approach. Unlike the dye sub with 256 levels of each "ink"
color. inkjet printers basically only can produce one color density of
each ink color. Now, this has been somewhat altered by inkjet printers
which use light and dark cyan, for instance, and they may also have or
more dot sizes they use, but the principal is still similar. Unlike dye
sub where each dot is approximately equivalent to one pixel, inkjets
need to make up a matrix of dots of each ink color which together dither
to create the illusion of a color. The smaller these dots and the more
of them, the less obvious the lack of color variation becomes. So the
reason inkjet printers, for instance, require 1000 up to 5000 dpi is
because each color is represented by 9 or 12 or more dots plus white
paper showing through the spaces between them.

So, in conclusion, dye sub printers do not need to have as high a dpi as
inkjet and laser for equivalent color smoothness (and potentially accuracy).

The disadvantages of dye subs are:

They may be fast fading
They cost more to run (consumable)
They tend to be noisier and slower
If you are using the cartridge type versus the ribbon type a lot of the
dye is wasted because all three of 4 color panels are used per image.
You must used their receiver paper.
The printers can be expensive

Today's inkjet printers with their forever decreasing nozzle sizes and
variable dot sizes plus using more than one ink color density, helps to
provide a near contone image.


CCDs used in scanners and even in digital cameras are actually
colorblind and only detect black and white and those shades in between.
They use color filters to color separate out the colors using some
complex algorythms. However, CCDs are corrected in scanners for a black
and white point each time they are used.

Lastly, while color perception is subjective, colors are not. They are
measuarable by photo spectrometers and densitometers, and are
reproducible, and indeed that's how professional printers keep the
things they print in spec to client's expectations.
 
I'm afraid there are many incorrect statements and conclusions in your
friend's commentary and I'd like to clarify them.

We do not see white as white because we know it is. Our eyes have a
chemical "color balancing" system which corrects for color temperature
up to a point. Our cones, which are responsible for our color vision
come in three versions, interestingly, sensitive to red, green and blue,
which are the primary colors of light. We have the most green cones,
followed by red and then blue. As we age we lose more blue cones due to
damage by UV exposure, and for most of us our lens yellows to a fairly
deep orange by the time we are in our 60s. This actually helps filter
out UV to protect the few blue cones we have, but between the loss of
blue cones and the orange lenses, our blue perception is quite poor as
we age. This in part explains why old people wear purple clothing,
think it is brown, and older ladies tend to wear blue hair dye, thinking
it is just toning down the intensity of the white hair.

Anyway, each cone produces chemical set points, and the receptors
saturate to the predominant color and become less sensitive to it. If
you want to see this in action, to prove it isn't just what we "expect"
try these there experiments.

1) Go into a room which is lighted with a strong color lamp, such as a
red lamp. Wait until your cones adjust so that the red begins to "fade"
and the colors in the room begin to become more "normalized" (they never
will fully because simply put a red light source doesn't contain the
full spectrum, or anything close to it, and since color of objects is
perceived by reflection of certain spectral wavelengths, if they aren't
there, the color just isn't visible (an example might be a dark green
piece of paper)). Red light emits almost no green, and therefore the
paper will look nearly black. Anyway, once your vision has acclimated
to the red bias go into something approaching white light and notice how
green it is. Basically, in an attempt to compensate for the overly red
bias, the green cones produced excess chemistry to try to readjust for
that bias.

2) Test two. Go out on a nice sunset night and look at the horizon or
sunset sky (do not look directly into the sun, even at sunset!). Once
your eyes have accommodated to that color balance, which is quite red,
turn around so your back is to the sunset. Now, when no one is looking
at you (if you are easily embarrassed) bend over and look at the sunset
sky, this time through your legs. Suddenly the colors will be much
brighter and red will be stronger. No, it is not because the chemicals
spilled, but close... You have now reversed the area of the retina
exposed to the sunset sky colors. The area which was probably dark and
silhouetted ground has not become the area where the sunset sky is being
perceived, and that area hasn't been saturated with reds.

3) Find a graphic image in a book, one with many primary and secondary
color areas boldly showing. Things like stripes of circles of color are
good. Stare at it for 30-45 sections and try not to move where your
eyes are looking during that period. Now, rapidly take a look at some
well lighted white paper with nothing else on it, and you should notice
something referred to as an "afterimage" and that image will have
"negative color" relative to the colors you were staring at. Dark
portions will be brighter, and vice versa, Greens will look red and vice
versa, etc.

Although optical dyes can create color casts on the white wedding dress,
since they are UV sensitive and our eyes generally are not, but film is,
that is why it is so much more obvious when film is involved.

As for color being subjective, each of our eyes sees and perceives color
differently. I have one eye which is considerably warming than the other
in how it sees light and color.

Now, as to dithering and the ALPS printers. I am assuming he is using
the dye sub dye material and not the hot wax semi opaque "inks".

Dye sub technology cannot be compared spec-wise to inkjet or laserjet,
because the technologies mean very different things.

Dye sub prints are referred to as continuous tone. This means that for
all intents and purposes the number of variations in color depth and
density are such that the human eye won't normally see bands or breaks
in the graduated color or density. The way a dye sub product works is
the head heats a small area of dye which is literally vaporized and made
gaseous. It then reforms as a solid within a specialized usually
plastic coated receiving surface on the print. Most dye sub printers
use 64, 128 or 256 levels of heat to determine how much of the dye gets
vaporized off the ribbon and redeposited onto the print. Most dye subs
used three ribbons to create all their colors, Cyan, magenta and Yellow
(plus a protective clear UV coating) some also provide a black ribbon
or panel. In the case of a dye sub head that provides 256 levels of
heat per color, that's 256 density levels for each of C, M and Y, or a
total of 16.8 million colors. Since the dyes are transparent they are
laid right on top of each other. Each dot on a dye sub when looked at
in detail usually has a soft fading peripheral edge to help them to
blend with each other well. Since each "dot" corresponds directly to one
pixel of data, these printers only need 200 to about 400 dpi.

Inkjet printers and to some extend color laser printers use a very
different approach. Unlike the dye sub with 256 levels of each "ink"
color. inkjet printers basically only can produce one color density of
each ink color. Now, this has been somewhat altered by inkjet printers
which use light and dark cyan, for instance, and they may also have or
more dot sizes they use, but the principal is still similar. Unlike dye
sub where each dot is approximately equivalent to one pixel, inkjets
need to make up a matrix of dots of each ink color which together dither
to create the illusion of a color. The smaller these dots and the more
of them, the less obvious the lack of color variation becomes. So the
reason inkjet printers, for instance, require 1000 up to 5000 dpi is
because each color is represented by 9 or 12 or more dots plus white
paper showing through the spaces between them.

So, in conclusion, dye sub printers do not need to have as high a dpi as
inkjet and laser for equivalent color smoothness (and potentially accuracy).

The disadvantages of dye subs are:

They may be fast fading
They cost more to run (consumable)
They tend to be noisier and slower
If you are using the cartridge type versus the ribbon type a lot of the
dye is wasted because all three of 4 color panels are used per image.
You must used their receiver paper.
The printers can be expensive

Today's inkjet printers with their forever decreasing nozzle sizes and
variable dot sizes plus using more than one ink color density, helps to
provide a near contone image.


CCDs used in scanners and even in digital cameras are actually
colorblind and only detect black and white and those shades in between.
They use color filters to color separate out the colors using some
complex algorythms. However, CCDs are corrected in scanners for a black
and white point each time they are used.

Lastly, while color perception is subjective, colors are not. They are
measuarable by photo spectrometers and densitometers, and are
reproducible, and indeed that's how professional printers keep the
things they print in spec to client's expectations.


WOW!

Thanks loads for your detailed comments. I can't wait to try some of
your suggested tests, and I will certainly pass your post on to my
friend (yes, Virginia, he does exist). I will post what he says in
reply and I am certain he will have something to say. He always does.

-Gecko
 
Sorry, a lot of typos got into parts of this posting... I was running on
about 2 hours sleep... I want to fix this paragraph because it got more
mangled than others...

3) Find a graphic image in a book, one with many primary and secondary
color areas boldly showing. Things like stripes or circles of color
are good. Stare at it for 30-45 seconds and try not to move where your
eyes are looking during that period. Now, rapidly take a look at some
well lighted white paper with nothing else on it, and you should notice
something referred to as an "afterimage" and that image will have
"negative color" relative to the colors you were staring at. Dark
portions will be brighter, and vice versa, Greens will look red and
vice versa, etc.

Another area where the typos altered the meaning, so I'm correcting it:


Sorry about those creeping in, a mixture of sloppy typing, sleep
deprivation and the spell checker making assumptions as to what I really
meant ;-)

Art
 
I have to admit I jumped into this thread without back reading the
original earlier postings. I should probably explain something about
the ALPS MD printers. They have two different methods of printing,
depending on which "kit" you use. They come with pigmented ink ribbons
which, although they have variable dot, do work similarly to an inkjet
or laser. They transfer small dots of colored pigment and resin
(actually a thermal plastic/wax) to the paper. This may not require
special receiver paper, but it also may use a special pre-coating on
some papers to give the best result.

When using this system, the printer does use small dots and does dither
them together to create the colors, and it seems to operate at between
600 and 2400 dpi. These prints should be quite fade resistance because
it uses a pigment colorant in the ribbons.

However, this same printer is able to print with dye sublimation
ribbons. In that mode it probably uses a lower dpi, at most perhaps 600
dpi, and possibly less. Dye sub works as I previously discussed,
vaporizing the ink from the ribbon to the receiver paper in different
densities depending on the heat level of the head. As I mentioned, dye
sub heads usually use between 64 and 256 heat levels to make 64 to 256
density levels of color. In this mode, dithering becomes unnecessary
because the dyes are integrated into one another transparently.

I haven't looked at the exact specifications for this printer, so my
comments previously are generalized for most dye sub processes. I
probably should have asked for a definitive answer as to if the dyesub
or the microdot solid ink ribbons are being used, since the technology
is different.

Art
 
At 11:24:48 on Mon, 10 Mar 2008 Arthur Entlich opined:-
I haven't looked at the exact specifications for this printer, so my
comments previously are generalized for most dye sub processes. I
probably should have asked for a definitive answer as to if the dyesub
or the microdot solid ink ribbons are being used, since the technology
is different.

Not all Alps MDs can do dye-sub, so it depends which model he has. The
MD 1300 has it by default, on the MD 5000 it's an extra. I don't think
any other model (other than Oki's re-badged version of the 5000) is dye-
sub capable.
 
Not all Alps MDs can do dye-sub, so it depends which model he has. The
MD 1300 has it by default, on the MD 5000 it's an extra. I don't think
any other model (other than Oki's re-badged version of the 5000) is dye-
sub capable.


My friend said his is the MD 4000.

-Gecko
 
OK, I have some backpedaling to do then...

I just did some research on this model and it does NOT accept the dye
sublimation cartridges, only the microdot pigment and resin/wax types.

Therefore, I have to revamp my comments.

This printer does use dithering to create it's colors. The company
claims it's drivers use a 24 bit color depth, meaning that in principal
each color (cyan, magenta and yellow) create the illusion of 256 color
levels each. They do this by using different patterns/screens of color
dots versus white paper showing through. In theory, this should create
16.8 million colors.

This cartridge pack uses a black ribbon as well.

The dye sub ribbon pack (used on the 1300, 2300 and 5000 with optional
adapter) uses a 3 color pack (CMY) plus clear coat, to protect and to
lessen fading from UV light.

The reviews claim the image quality was "better than some inkjet
printers", but that was a few years back and I'm, not sure that will
still hold true with inkjet printers which have up to 12 color inks and
very tight resolutions up to 6000 dpi. Inkjet printer do require
specially coated papers to hold dot gain (bleeding) down so if they
compared the two using regular bond paper, then the ALPS would
definitely look better in most cases.

The advantage to the microdot ALPS system is: the colorants are pure
pigment with an adhesive resin. They are waterproof. They can be
printed onto almost any paper surface. They can be transferred to other
products using a heat press and special transfer papers. The "ink"
doesn't bleed at all meaning a very small and sharp dot. And since the
ALPS is using a dry solid ink, it can use white, gold, foils, etc and
print onto clear decal materials with opaque ink.

I believe the company is out of business, so one is reliant on 3rd party
ribbons and service and parts may be somewhat of a problem. Also, they
had a problem with banding. I remember reading the fix was to gently
heat the print with a hair dryer to remove the bands.

Art
 
Arthur,

I just bought an Epson R260 and found that the SSC Service Utility doesn't work with this printer. I
have the latest version. Would you know why this printer isn't supported by the utility ???

Thanks

Brian..........

Kill filters - The Enema Of The Usenet !!!!!
 
Hi Brian,

I have been trying to get Epson to supply me with a cross reference list
of printer numbers depending upon where they are manufactured and
released, without success for years now.

I notice there are models R260, R270, R280 and R290 models depending if
you look at North America, Europe or Australia.

The current version (4.30) of the SSC Utility does support R240 and R270
models. You might want to email them and see if the codes are the same
for the R260 and R270 models, as they may very well be.

You might also want to ask them about the specific function you need at
this point, as the software may be partially implemented for your model.

Art
 
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