MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job?

[Lewis Lang]

MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang

 

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Diploma's in theory are proof you've taken the courses and read the
material well enough to produce proof at an exam you did read the
material well enough you understood what was explained in them.

They aren't proof you can do what a job requires, only that you have a
certain set of knowledge. With MCS* diploma's the problem is that the
exams are bogus. Often people learn braindumps and go to bootcamps to
get teh diploma, but hardly know the hard facts. Furthermore the exams
are full of questions which ask for stupid trivia everyone would look up
in a help document and which don't represent true understanding the
material. (e.g. what's the value of a constant)

More and more the industry realizes that MCS* certifications aren't
proof you can program your way out of a paper bag. The reason for that
is that you get multiple choice questions on an exam, you didn't take
courses which required you to write software, design a system and really
think, apply knowledge how it is ment to be applied.

In short: if an employer requires an MCSD certification, I wouldn't
bother getting a job there. The reason is that the employer doesn't
undestand what's really important for the job.

That doesn't mean you can relax and just play games. You have to keep
educating yourself. So read the books. And more books. And above all,
write software by applying the knowledge. With that software you can
proof you understood what's important and you can show your potential
employer what you're able to do. That software can be anything, as long
as its done properly, well thought out and that it shows what you're
capable of doing. The fun part is: while writing that software you
really learn what the value is of knowledge distilled from a book.

good luck.

Frans



--

 

[Mark Rae]

In short: if an employer requires an MCSD certification, I wouldn't bother
getting a job there. The reason is that the employer doesn't undestand
what's really important for the job.

I agree 100%. I've always equated MCP certification to driving lessons; they
don't teach you how to be a good driver, just how to pass your driving test.

 

[RCS]

What these guys said..

But I will say, if you are coming right out of college or something - the
MCSD may be that little bit that helps. If anything, it will tell the
employer, you have come a long way on book knowledge, which will only help
you when you start doing real programming.

I got my MSCE in the late 90's.. couple things.. 1) the questions are geared
towards someone who JUST took the classes and don't have any other
experience. 2) the questions have a LOT of silly trivia that you'd either
never use - or if you did, you could just look up. 3) it's a bit of a
scam/very-clever in that the certification expires with the technology - so
you have to keep taking classes and keep taking the exams to keep your
certification current..

So bottom line, if you can get a company to sponsor/pay for it, it won't
hurt you.. but also keep in mind, that the MCSD isn't very impressive to
anyone who is a professional developer.. MCSDs are for managers and HR types
to get you the job..

 

[Samuel R. Neff]

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general

Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups?


BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com

 

[saurabh]

They aren't proof you can do what a job requires, only that you have a
certain set of knowledge. With MCS* diploma's the problem is that the
exams are bogus. Often people learn braindumps and go to bootcamps to get
teh diploma, but hardly know the hard facts. Furthermore the exams are
full of questions which ask for stupid trivia everyone would look up in a
help document and which don't represent true understanding the material.
(e.g. what's the value of a constant)

Can you suggest an exam which is not like that? An exam which will really
test the knowledge of the candidate. In my opinion, that exam is the real
work and to get to appear for 'that exam' could MCS* not be a stepping stone
?

 

[RCS]

This wasn't directed at me, but if I may...

There are 3 kinds of developers (in my mind): ones in and around academia,
"point-n-click" developers and competent developers. Wait! Lemme explain!


Academic developers live and breathe in ideal textbook environments. Staying
in this environment too long will rot your brain. It weakens your ability to
think on your feet and be sharp. To me, this is the worst kind of
environment, because everything is predictable and by the book - when "real"
development is nothing like that. Even today, many military and aerospace
organizations are still like this - and end paying a dear price for the
inefficiency. In todays day and age, you just can't spend 2 years on a
product design - and then start development, because in that 2 years, new
tools and technlogies have come out that will likely impact your design!!
You can test these types by asking how they plan for a project or throwing
curveballs about changing requirements, mid-project.

Point-n-Click developers are ones that came from Excel->Access->VB and
typically have really bad coding techniques simply because they aren't aware
of the alternatives, and typically aren't very motivated to become better
developers. You can weed these types out by asking about complex application
architecture or advanced programming concepts.

Then there are are "regular", competent developers - ones that try to better
themselves constantly, are sharp and can react to a problem very quickly.
It's that agility that is the key to a good developer, to me. Hopefully,
this kind of candidate, you shuold be able to throw anything at them - and
they should be agile enough to react to any concept effectively.


So when you ask to test how capable a candidate is, something that works
every time is give them your own well-rounded test. I interviewed for a MS
consulting job once and they have a pretty cool little 30 question test that
was language independant asking about programming concepts like what is an
array, what is a linked-list, etc. I thought that was fantastic. Things like
that, really test the capacity of your candidate. Between a test and talking
with them - you should have a good idea of what category from above they
fall into.

For whatever it's worth..

 

[Bruce Wood]

Sam,

Just to give you another perspective, I have no .NET anything. No
certs. No exams. I do, however, have 20 years experience doing
object-oriented design and programming. While I'm by no means a guru in
all things .NET, or even the myriad technologies that Microsoft offers,
I am, after 1 year messing around with C#, helping out in this
newsgroup. You can read my responses and judge for yourself my
technical level.

You might still give me an interview, but as you said, you'd be "less
likely" to give one to me than to someone who didn't have my depth of
experience but had passed the certs. Looking for certifications from
Microsoft is not necessarily the best strategy.

If I were interviewing a candidate for our office, I would want to know
two things:

1. To what extent do they understand the kind of software technology
that we are using? We're using Windows Forms and we're looking to get
into Web Services, so I'd want to know if they had any experience in
those things, or at least understood the general concepts and issues
surrounding them.

2. To what extent to they undestand modern design and programming?
Object, classes, overloading? Do they understand when it's appropriate
to use this-versus-that. This sort of thing you learn with experience,
not much from certification exams.

The Java certs impressed me (and scared me, truth be told). In order to
pass one of those things you need hard experience. After looking at the
Java 2 programmer's exam I decided that anyone who wasn't using Java on
a daily basis couldn't pass it. Not so with MS exams: they're more
cram-and-write affairs.

To Lewis, I would say this: Take what Sam said to heart. Spend a few
extra bucks and take the certification exams. _Not_ because this will
give you an edge for the rest of your career. Rather, because it will
improve your chances of getting your next job. Once you have your foot
in the door and some experience under your belt, move from job to job
based on contacts and reputation, not cold calls and MS certs: the
latter are useful only when you don't have the former.

 

[Wayne]

What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am looking
at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However,
when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always the
"BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4 lines
of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to
learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?

Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up little
tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever under
estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
test.


--
Thanks
Wayne Sepega
Jacksonville, Fl


"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But
let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

 

[Samuel R. Neff]

Bruce,

I didn't mean to imply I wouldn't give someone an interview without
them--that's hardly the case especially as we haven't received a
single resume with a .NET certification. What I meant is that a
candidate that we normally would not have given an interview (say
someone with 2-3 years programming experience but zero .net
experience) would get an interview when that candidate otherwise would
not.

For me, personally, the biggest factor is when I talk to someone if
they can talk intelligently about their work. I'm amazed when I talk
to people and they have trouble explaining what it is they do and the
technologies they use. I'm not saying things like "explain what SOA
is" or "tell me about design patterns" when they have expressed no
previous knowledge in those areas. I'm saying people that list things
on their resumes but can't explain the things they list. I look for
someone that can hold a decent programming conversation about the
concepts and talk about technologies they've used.

I would definitely also agree that the MS certifications are worth a
lot less than other certifications. The Java ones, of which I have
none but have reviewed, are considerably better from my perspective.
I have several 5 Macromedia certifications and they are even better
than the MS certs.

To get a better understanding of this thread I went ahead and took a
practice exam for 70-306 (VB.NET WinForms) last night and was really
disappointed. It seemed about as bad as the old VB6 exam
concentrating on things that don't necessarily make someone a good
programmer and providing lots of questions that are fairly easy to
guess at without really knowing the material. Still better than
nothing, but not worth a lot.

My $0.02 only...

Sam

Sam,

Just to give you another perspective, I have no .NET anything. No
certs. No exams. I do, however, have 20 years experience doing
object-oriented design and programming. While I'm by no means a guru in
all things .NET, or even the myriad technologies that Microsoft offers,
I am, after 1 year messing around with C#, helping out in this
newsgroup. You can read my responses and judge for yourself my
technical level.

B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for WinForms + WebServices position with strong possibility of ASPX in future. Seaking mid to senior level developer. For information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.

 

[RCS]

I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way, but
for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one line:
declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a ternary
expression (spelling?)..

 

[Wayne]

Interesting, didn't know you could do that all on one line. HMMM, wonder if
it would pass our code review process.

 

[Andy O'Neill]

Bruce,

To get a better understanding of this thread I went ahead and took a
practice exam for 70-306 (VB.NET WinForms) last night and was really
disappointed. It seemed about as bad as the old VB6 exam
concentrating on things that don't necessarily make someone a good
programmer and providing lots of questions that are fairly easy to
guess at without really knowing the material. Still better than
nothing, but not worth a lot.

Yep.
I've looked at microsoft certification.
The stuff you're tested on is virtually all what I'd call "academic"
knowledge.
Stuff that you just don't care about as you do development.

I'm a contractor, occasionally work as team leader.
I've interviewed a number of people.
To get a feel for how much exerience they have I ask a few very open
questions and just see what they say.
It may be coincidence but the people who were MCSD did badly.
If I were to take my experience literally, certification would seem to be a
negative.

Maybe the approach is interesting.
One of my standard questions was vb6.

You're doing a screen.
The idea is that there's a compound key to the data to be shown.
This is to matched by a series of combo boxes.
Country, county, town or something like that.
The user is to select from the first combo box.
This will then be used to populate a second, which in turn will be used to
populate a third.
When the last one is selected, some other piece of code will be run which
populates other bits of the form.
You're populating each combo by looping through a recordset and adding each
entry.
What problem might you expect to find?

Additem generated a click event, so it'll potentially run the populate next
combo bit for each entry as you populate it.
I'd then go on to ask him what command would that be to stick an entry in
the combo?
Further questions depending on how he/she answers.

My logic being that if the guy had used combo boxes he probably had used
additem to fill em and he probably did something on the click event so he'd
have come across this sort of stuff before.

 

[Jason Black [MSFT]]

Unless your code review process has some aesthetic restrictions on the form
code takes, the ?: version ought to pass. Both versions are absolutely
identical from a semantic point of view. They will both perform identically
in all situations, and both will cause the compiler to emit the same MSIL
code.

 

[Samuel R. Neff]

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam

B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.

 

[Wayne]

not only do the books promote bad practice, but it's painfully obvious that
the author nor the editors, actually went through the exercise in the book,
I've just spent over an hr tracking down a bug in the code in the book, but
the code on the CD is correct.

Starting to wonder if it's even worth doing this to satisfy management.

 

[maxthegold]

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam

I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?

 

[RCS]

I'm not the OP here, but *I* would say that's a bad sign, because that tells
me the person can't multi-task. Most dedicated people have multiple things
going on thier life and "find a way" to do it all. There is absolutely no
need to quit working - and for 3 MONTHS to prepare for an exam!!

In other words, that expression "If you want something done, ask a busy
person" - applies, I think. A busy person would find time, over that 3
months to get some studying in, maybe they'd take a couple 3-day weekends
even, but to be out of work for 3 months is professional suicide. As a
developer, your PRIMARY focus should be (in my opinion):

A) Whatever your expertise is, be great at it. Stay great at it.
B) Be good at your secondary stuff. Work to be great at it.
C) Keep up with the latest technology (be familiar enough to know whether
it's worth pursing or not)
D) Stay agile. Always work on staying sharp with both your skills and with
your problem-solving.

It takes constant work to maintain - nevermind build your career. To me,
taking 3 months off for anything - is going to severely impact every one of
these objectives. It also is telling about your personality, are you going
to be high maintenance? If I give you a big project - are you going to need
to take a sabatical because the stress is just "too much"? What if I give
you TWO important projects?

On the flip side, if someone has a day job *AND* studied for 3 months for an
exam - THAT would be a "very good sign", because they are capable of
multi-tasking and managing thier life. Shows they aren't afraid of work and
shows they are ambitious.

 

[Guest]

What would be the harm in finding out why he/sho chose to do things this way?
Perhaps the applicant was so committed to stay up to date that he/she was
prepared to take this (admittedly) big risk and take 5 tests in three months.
If .NET was new material and if the person did not cheat, then three months
is not bad at all.

 

[Andy O'Neill]

What would be the harm in finding out why he/sho chose to do things this
way?
Perhaps the applicant was so committed to stay up to date that he/she was
prepared to take this (admittedly) big risk and take 5 tests in three
months.
If .NET was new material and if the person did not cheat, then three
months
is not bad at all.

I want to keep up to date, I buy books and read.
If I wanted to start up a software house and needed two people with mcsd
then I'd maybe take 3months off to swot.

I tend not to discount people too quickly just based on the odd thing on
their CV.
If they look like they have the experience I telephone interview.
If their technical abilities seem OK and their personality comes over OK
then I get them in for a chat.

Telephone interviewing saves a lot of time.