]Loong]..Cleaning up volumes/drives

[Michael]

My plan:

Task 1 :

Hd0 with Win2k in the primary/first partition (the second partition
full), the remainder not partitioned, about 2 gig free, there.
Hd1 with Win 2k in the Primary/first partition, the next one is full but
I have much space in the rest of the drive.

Initially I tried to use Partition Magic to resizize the partitions and
create more space in the system/primary partitions.

It glitched in the process and my tells me my LBA geomotry doesn't match
the chs...I could "fix" it but all seems to be well and I have heard I
may cause more problems than not by tampering with what I have...

So, I still wish to increase the space in the primary partitions!

What if I?:

Move data from the partitions (D:\ and G:\)"behind" the system
partitions...I could "empty them. Yes, I will have free space in the
adjacent "volumes". The question is (sorry for the suspense)...

If I "eliminate" (D:\ G:\) via Disk Manager (Partition Magic will not
function unless I address its disk geometry) do they (the volumes I
"delete) become a part of C:\ and F:\ or do they become part of D:\ and
H:\? Will I end up "adding to the primary volume? When one elimininates
a volume does it become part of the PREceeding or SICeeding volume?

Next-----> Further, my boot sector(C:\) is a mess (with several
operating systems and loaders having been there) over the years.(Several
utilities "see" different MBR'S there! (I Diskmapped it and I think it
is rather huge---)

I would like to clean hd0 up (FixMBR and FixBoot doesn't do that).
But!--I could move all the data from hd0 to hd1 (while using W2k
from/while in hd1), re-partition and reformat hd0. (wiping out all
MBR's, but the data will be safe on hd1)

However, my next move concerns me...

!!!!!I can "restore" the data to hd0, but will the system boot?

Yes, I'm sure I can boot from the CD and perform a complicated repair
(I've had to do what amounted to re-"installs" before) of the systems.
I'd prefer not?

Is their a simpler way to clean up Hd0 without the time/effort
(possibly) resorting to risking loss of W2k when it returns to the drive
after being parked on hd1 during the process.

Two problems---slightly related...

Thanks, now attack!

Michael

 

[DL]

It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what reason?
Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to hd1
Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the app.
eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on a
different hd.

 

[Michael]

It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what reason?
Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to hd1
Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the app.
eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on a
different hd.

[snipped my original note]

Thanks for your suggestion but I believe I have accounted for that
option and came here for an alternative.

I have had a two os's forever. It has saved my butt many times. I have
never gotten as much relief from a gig of space. But that's another
story...and not relevent to my goal.

Yes, I anticipated your solution...I was hoping to avoid a clean
install. ----I can move and park each of the os's, but I can't move
*all* of the data from hd0 to hd1.

Thus, my remaining query remains:
1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to
re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

2. I suppose I'll find the answer to question 2 elsewhere as no one
seems to know:----> It is not clear what happens to other partitions if
one volume is deleted via disk manager. Does the "space" morph into the
volume ahead of it or behind it or does it remain an unformatted block?

Again, (simple) two goals: Reformat primary hd0 and have a minimal
recovery after I restore the back-up of W2k (ie, not re-install--simply
restore the back-up)

---and (on hd1) create MORE space in the primary by (I hope) clearing
out and deleting the volume behind it and combining it with the primary
on hd1.

As of now, because Partition Magic screwed up the geometry on hd1 it
won't even recognize ANY partitions. It suggests I format the entire
drive (which appears healthy based on several other diagnostic tools.)
All advice suggest I ignore PM's evaluation....and move on!

Thus, I am looking to do this via the OS' disk manager--PM has failed me
before and I'm a bit leary of Ranish as they document the danger of
using their app following a PM screw-up. I'm open to any other partition
re-sizing solution.

P.S My data is already seperate from the apps.

A final query...I notice on the older OS I have a giant (80 meg) "driver
cache." Why, what is it and is there a reason to have duplicate .dll
files in that folder -- they are newer but I don't have a similar
situation in the newer os on HD0. Seems like a waste that can be managed?

Same with the "shell cache---what 'n' why?

Again, thanks...

 

[DL]

I believe you need to rethink yr options.
You cannot amend a partition size without either
Deleting partitions using win2k cd
or using a third party tool, eg PM
The win2k cd is bootable and will thus allow access for a repair
1) if I understand correctly; Formatting primary partition will require a
reinstall of Win
It depends how you 'backed up' win as to whether you can recover the
'backup'
I have allways found PM stable so if it has failed on yr sys it does'nt bode
well for yr sys.
Why cannot you move data?

It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what reason?
Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to hd1
Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the app.
eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on a
different hd.

[snipped my original note]

Thanks for your suggestion but I believe I have accounted for that
option and came here for an alternative.

I have had a two os's forever. It has saved my butt many times. I have
never gotten as much relief from a gig of space. But that's another
story...and not relevent to my goal.

Yes, I anticipated your solution...I was hoping to avoid a clean
install. ----I can move and park each of the os's, but I can't move
*all* of the data from hd0 to hd1.

Thus, my remaining query remains:
1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to
re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

2. I suppose I'll find the answer to question 2 elsewhere as no one
seems to know:----> It is not clear what happens to other partitions if
one volume is deleted via disk manager. Does the "space" morph into the
volume ahead of it or behind it or does it remain an unformatted block?

Again, (simple) two goals: Reformat primary hd0 and have a minimal
recovery after I restore the back-up of W2k (ie, not re-install--simply
restore the back-up)

---and (on hd1) create MORE space in the primary by (I hope) clearing
out and deleting the volume behind it and combining it with the primary
on hd1.

As of now, because Partition Magic screwed up the geometry on hd1 it
won't even recognize ANY partitions. It suggests I format the entire
drive (which appears healthy based on several other diagnostic tools.)
All advice suggest I ignore PM's evaluation....and move on!

Thus, I am looking to do this via the OS' disk manager--PM has failed me
before and I'm a bit leary of Ranish as they document the danger of
using their app following a PM screw-up. I'm open to any other partition
re-sizing solution.

P.S My data is already seperate from the apps.

A final query...I notice on the older OS I have a giant (80 meg) "driver
cache." Why, what is it and is there a reason to have duplicate .dll
files in that folder -- they are newer but I don't have a similar
situation in the newer os on HD0. Seems like a waste that can be managed?

Same with the "shell cache---what 'n' why?

Again, thanks...

 

[Michael]

I believe you need to rethink yr options.
You cannot amend a partition size without either
Deleting partitions using win2k cd
or using a third party tool, eg PM
The win2k cd is bootable and will thus allow access for a repair
1) if I understand correctly; Formatting primary partition will require a
reinstall of Win
It depends how you 'backed up' win as to whether you can recover the
'backup'
I have allways found PM stable so if it has failed on yr sys it does'nt bode
well for yr sys.
Why cannot you move data?

Yes, Disk Management seems
rather limited.

I was hoping --See below:

hd1
|F;\|G:\|H:|------>More partitions...

If I emptied out and deleted G:\? Would\could W2k merge
the vacant space with F:\..?
That is, in Disk Management, what happens
to the primary partition if the first/next logical volume is deleted?
Nuttin'...eh?

As far as third party software? Well. the first step in increasing the size
of a primay partition requires creating space in the adjacent volume.
I'm ready for that----G:\ will now give up space (albeit w/third-party
software) to F:\

I'd hoped that if I eliminated the next volume (G:\) via Disk Management,
the primary partition would either pick up the slack on its own. So,
yes, it appears third party software will have to manage the
expansion of the primary partition.

As for part two? Think again?
Yes, the plan was to do a full backup of C:\. (I'd be in
win2k from drive two), at that stage--I've done this part before.

I'd park it on hd1.
Still in W2k, I would re-format C:\ *with* a single Fat32 MBR.
(The goal for this is to clean out
the multiple MBR's that reside in that sector.)

So? Why can't I simply replace (restore) W2k back to C:\?

Why is an install necessary?

All the boot files are there...the MBR is there.
Why would it *not* re-boot?
Jeeze! I'm simply *replacing* the contents of a partion into its old
home---the only diff is that there is a single MBR there.
So, at BIOS--> POST----->1MBR
Then, same ole ntldr, boot.ini and ntdetect.com and the same
EVERYTHING all drives--including both OS's!
And you say it won't re-boot without a re-install?

Exactly what is happening (or not) which requires an
install? Hell, I've had a completely corrupeted registry and
the most I had to do was use the back-ups in repair.
I really don't believe W2k will *know* what happened while
it was parked elsewhere...
It should be right at home upon its return!

It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what

reason?

Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to hd1
Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the

app.

eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on

a

different hd.

[snipped my original note]

Thanks for your suggestion but I believe I have accounted for that
option and came here for an alternative.

I have had a two os's forever. It has saved my butt many times. I have
never gotten as much relief from a gig of space. But that's another
story...and not relevent to my goal.

Yes, I anticipated your solution...I was hoping to avoid a clean
install. ----I can move and park each of the os's, but I can't move
*all* of the data from hd0 to hd1.

Thus, my remaining query remains:
1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to
re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

2. I suppose I'll find the answer to question 2 elsewhere as no one
seems to know:----> It is not clear what happens to other partitions if
one volume is deleted via disk manager. Does the "space" morph into the
volume ahead of it or behind it or does it remain an unformatted block?

Again, (simple) two goals: Reformat primary hd0 and have a minimal
recovery after I restore the back-up of W2k (ie, not re-install--simply
restore the back-up)

---and (on hd1) create MORE space in the primary by (I hope) clearing
out and deleting the volume behind it and combining it with the primary
on hd1.

As of now, because Partition Magic screwed up the geometry on hd1 it
won't even recognize ANY partitions. It suggests I format the entire
drive (which appears healthy based on several other diagnostic tools.)
All advice suggest I ignore PM's evaluation....and move on!

Thus, I am looking to do this via the OS' disk manager--PM has failed me
before and I'm a bit leary of Ranish as they document the danger of
using their app following a PM screw-up. I'm open to any other partition
re-sizing solution.

P.S My data is already seperate from the apps.

A final query...I notice on the older OS I have a giant (80 meg) "driver
cache." Why, what is it and is there a reason to have duplicate .dll
files in that folder -- they are newer but I don't have a similar
situation in the newer os on HD0. Seems like a waste that can be managed?

Same with the "shell cache---what 'n' why?

Again, thanks...

 

[DL]

Personally I think yr making life awkward for yourself, two o/s,fat32 etc
I mean do you update both o/s?
I've run win2k sys 24/7 for some yrs, have yet to have a non recoverable
software crash, have had two hd's fail but never lost data. When
reinstalling after a hd failure, yes its a pain/takes time but at least you
get rid of the junk.

I believe you need to rethink yr options.
You cannot amend a partition size without either
Deleting partitions using win2k cd
or using a third party tool, eg PM
The win2k cd is bootable and will thus allow access for a repair
1) if I understand correctly; Formatting primary partition will require a
reinstall of Win
It depends how you 'backed up' win as to whether you can recover the
'backup'
I have allways found PM stable so if it has failed on yr sys it does'nt bode
well for yr sys.
Why cannot you move data?

Yes, Disk Management seems
rather limited.

I was hoping --See below:

hd1
|F;\|G:\|H:|------>More partitions...

If I emptied out and deleted G:\? Would\could W2k merge
the vacant space with F:\..?
That is, in Disk Management, what happens
to the primary partition if the first/next logical volume is deleted?
Nuttin'...eh?

As far as third party software? Well. the first step in increasing the size
of a primay partition requires creating space in the adjacent volume.
I'm ready for that----G:\ will now give up space (albeit w/third-party
software) to F:\

I'd hoped that if I eliminated the next volume (G:\) via Disk Management,
the primary partition would either pick up the slack on its own. So,
yes, it appears third party software will have to manage the
expansion of the primary partition.

As for part two? Think again?
Yes, the plan was to do a full backup of C:\. (I'd be in
win2k from drive two), at that stage--I've done this part before.

I'd park it on hd1.
Still in W2k, I would re-format C:\ *with* a single Fat32 MBR.
(The goal for this is to clean out
the multiple MBR's that reside in that sector.)

So? Why can't I simply replace (restore) W2k back to C:\?

Why is an install necessary?

All the boot files are there...the MBR is there.
Why would it *not* re-boot?
Jeeze! I'm simply *replacing* the contents of a partion into its old
home---the only diff is that there is a single MBR there.
So, at BIOS--> POST----->1MBR
Then, same ole ntldr, boot.ini and ntdetect.com and the same
EVERYTHING all drives--including both OS's!
And you say it won't re-boot without a re-install?

Exactly what is happening (or not) which requires an
install? Hell, I've had a completely corrupeted registry and
the most I had to do was use the back-ups in repair.
I really don't believe W2k will *know* what happened while
it was parked elsewhere...
It should be right at home upon its return!

On 8/18/2004 3:52 AM, DL wrote:

It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what
reason?

Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to hd1
Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the
app.

eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on
a

different hd.


[snipped my original note]

Thanks for your suggestion but I believe I have accounted for that
option and came here for an alternative.

I have had a two os's forever. It has saved my butt many times. I have
never gotten as much relief from a gig of space. But that's another
story...and not relevent to my goal.

Yes, I anticipated your solution...I was hoping to avoid a clean
install. ----I can move and park each of the os's, but I can't move
*all* of the data from hd0 to hd1.

Thus, my remaining query remains:
1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to
re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

2. I suppose I'll find the answer to question 2 elsewhere as no one
seems to know:----> It is not clear what happens to other partitions if
one volume is deleted via disk manager. Does the "space" morph into the
volume ahead of it or behind it or does it remain an unformatted block?

Again, (simple) two goals: Reformat primary hd0 and have a minimal
recovery after I restore the back-up of W2k (ie, not re-install--simply
restore the back-up)

---and (on hd1) create MORE space in the primary by (I hope) clearing
out and deleting the volume behind it and combining it with the primary
on hd1.

As of now, because Partition Magic screwed up the geometry on hd1 it
won't even recognize ANY partitions. It suggests I format the entire
drive (which appears healthy based on several other diagnostic tools.)
All advice suggest I ignore PM's evaluation....and move on!

Thus, I am looking to do this via the OS' disk manager--PM has failed me
before and I'm a bit leary of Ranish as they document the danger of
using their app following a PM screw-up. I'm open to any other partition
re-sizing solution.

P.S My data is already seperate from the apps.

A final query...I notice on the older OS I have a giant (80 meg) "driver
cache." Why, what is it and is there a reason to have duplicate .dll
files in that folder -- they are newer but I don't have a similar
situation in the newer os on HD0. Seems like a waste that can be managed?

Same with the "shell cache---what 'n' why?

Again, thanks...

 

[Michael]

Personally I think yr making life awkward for yourself, two o/s,fat32 etc
I mean do you update both o/s?
I've run win2k sys 24/7 for some yrs, have yet to have a non recoverable
software crash, have had two hd's fail but never lost data. When
reinstalling after a hd failure, yes its a pain/takes time but at least you
get rid of the junk.

Um, you really haven't addressed my concerns?

"Two os's" is a straw man here. It has *nothing* at all to do with my
two goals:

1. Increasing the size of a primary partition.
2. Reformatting a partition and replacing the OS in that partition.

#2 I can deal with. I don't believe it will require a complete
re-install. Perhaps a longer repair, but I will keep all settings after
the backed-up OS returns to the partition. (I'm not convinced it will
need much work at all)

Face it, you don't propose the best argument for backing-up! Most people
don't back-up with the intention of a re-install as part of the bargain...

As for #1?

I'll get it done. My question was limited to the viabiltiy of Disk
Management to do anything more than format/create/delete partitions.
Seems as though MS could include something more to manage drives---as it
exists as freeware.

As for Fat32? Perhaps it's my impression, but as I scan the groups I see
it as more trouble than it's worth.

Again, another strawman as NTFS/Fat32 has *nothing* to do with my two
goals above.

Loyalty to MS is great and expected in these groups. However, one need
not be dogmatic to the point of ignoring one's dilemma.

Hey, I have two problems---removing an OS won't solve them, nor will
switching to NTFS.

Thanks though. No one else has a clue!

I believe you need to rethink yr options.
You cannot amend a partition size without either
Deleting partitions using win2k cd
or using a third party tool, eg PM
The win2k cd is bootable and will thus allow access for a repair
1) if I understand correctly; Formatting primary partition will require

a

reinstall of Win
It depends how you 'backed up' win as to whether you can recover the
'backup'
I have allways found PM stable so if it has failed on yr sys it does'nt

bode

well for yr sys.
Why cannot you move data?

Yes, Disk Management seems
rather limited.

I was hoping --See below:

hd1
|F;\|G:\|H:|------>More partitions...

If I emptied out and deleted G:\? Would\could W2k merge
the vacant space with F:\..?
That is, in Disk Management, what happens
to the primary partition if the first/next logical volume is deleted?
Nuttin'...eh?

As far as third party software? Well. the first step in increasing the
size

of a primay partition requires creating space in the adjacent volume.
I'm ready for that----G:\ will now give up space (albeit w/third-party
software) to F:\

I'd hoped that if I eliminated the next volume (G:\) via Disk Management,
the primary partition would either pick up the slack on its own. So,
yes, it appears third party software will have to manage the
expansion of the primary partition.

As for part two? Think again?
Yes, the plan was to do a full backup of C:\. (I'd be in
win2k from drive two), at that stage--I've done this part before.

I'd park it on hd1.
Still in W2k, I would re-format C:\ *with* a single Fat32 MBR.
(The goal for this is to clean out
the multiple MBR's that reside in that sector.)

So? Why can't I simply replace (restore) W2k back to C:\?

Why is an install necessary?

All the boot files are there...the MBR is there.
Why would it *not* re-boot?
Jeeze! I'm simply *replacing* the contents of a partion into its old
home---the only diff is that there is a single MBR there.
So, at BIOS--> POST----->1MBR
Then, same ole ntldr, boot.ini and ntdetect.com and the same
EVERYTHING all drives--including both OS's!
And you say it won't re-boot without a re-install?

Exactly what is happening (or not) which requires an
install? Hell, I've had a completely corrupeted registry and
the most I had to do was use the back-ups in repair.
I really don't believe W2k will *know* what happened while
it was parked elsewhere...
It should be right at home upon its return!

On 8/18/2004 3:52 AM, DL wrote:


It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what

reason?


Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to

hd1

Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the

app.


eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on

a


different hd.


[snipped my original note]

Thanks for your suggestion but I believe I have accounted for that
option and came here for an alternative.

I have had a two os's forever. It has saved my butt many times. I have
never gotten as much relief from a gig of space. But that's another
story...and not relevent to my goal.

Yes, I anticipated your solution...I was hoping to avoid a clean
install. ----I can move and park each of the os's, but I can't move
*all* of the data from hd0 to hd1.

Thus, my remaining query remains:
1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to
re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

2. I suppose I'll find the answer to question 2 elsewhere as no one
seems to know:----> It is not clear what happens to other partitions if
one volume is deleted via disk manager. Does the "space" morph into the
volume ahead of it or behind it or does it remain an unformatted block?

Again, (simple) two goals: Reformat primary hd0 and have a minimal
recovery after I restore the back-up of W2k (ie, not re-install--simply
restore the back-up)

---and (on hd1) create MORE space in the primary by (I hope) clearing
out and deleting the volume behind it and combining it with the primary
on hd1.

As of now, because Partition Magic screwed up the geometry on hd1 it
won't even recognize ANY partitions. It suggests I format the entire
drive (which appears healthy based on several other diagnostic tools.)
All advice suggest I ignore PM's evaluation....and move on!

Thus, I am looking to do this via the OS' disk manager--PM has failed me
before and I'm a bit leary of Ranish as they document the danger of
using their app following a PM screw-up. I'm open to any other partition
re-sizing solution.

P.S My data is already seperate from the apps.

A final query...I notice on the older OS I have a giant (80 meg) "driver
cache." Why, what is it and is there a reason to have duplicate .dll
files in that folder -- they are newer but I don't have a similar
situation in the newer os on HD0. Seems like a waste that can be

managed?

Same with the "shell cache---what 'n' why?

Again, thanks...

 

[DL]

I was'nt meaning to be difficult/awkward
The inbuilt disk management doesnt allow for ammending partition size. This
can only be accomplished using a third party tool.
If PM has failed it 'may' be an indication of underlying disk problem.
You can format a partition and reinstall a win backup
My ref. to backup was only in regard you having two o/s installs, which if
yr happy with is up to you.

Personally I think yr making life awkward for yourself, two o/s,fat32 etc
I mean do you update both o/s?
I've run win2k sys 24/7 for some yrs, have yet to have a non recoverable
software crash, have had two hd's fail but never lost data. When
reinstalling after a hd failure, yes its a pain/takes time but at least you
get rid of the junk.

Um, you really haven't addressed my concerns?

"Two os's" is a straw man here. It has *nothing* at all to do with my
two goals:

1. Increasing the size of a primary partition.
2. Reformatting a partition and replacing the OS in that partition.

#2 I can deal with. I don't believe it will require a complete
re-install. Perhaps a longer repair, but I will keep all settings after
the backed-up OS returns to the partition. (I'm not convinced it will
need much work at all)

Face it, you don't propose the best argument for backing-up! Most people
don't back-up with the intention of a re-install as part of the bargain...

As for #1?

I'll get it done. My question was limited to the viabiltiy of Disk
Management to do anything more than format/create/delete partitions.
Seems as though MS could include something more to manage drives---as it
exists as freeware.

As for Fat32? Perhaps it's my impression, but as I scan the groups I see
it as more trouble than it's worth.

Again, another strawman as NTFS/Fat32 has *nothing* to do with my two
goals above.

Loyalty to MS is great and expected in these groups. However, one need
not be dogmatic to the point of ignoring one's dilemma.

Hey, I have two problems---removing an OS won't solve them, nor will
switching to NTFS.

Thanks though. No one else has a clue!

On 8/18/2004 12:51 PM, DL wrote:

I believe you need to rethink yr options.
You cannot amend a partition size without either
Deleting partitions using win2k cd
or using a third party tool, eg PM
The win2k cd is bootable and will thus allow access for a repair
1) if I understand correctly; Formatting primary partition will require
a

reinstall of Win
It depends how you 'backed up' win as to whether you can recover the
'backup'
I have allways found PM stable so if it has failed on yr sys it does'nt
bode

well for yr sys.
Why cannot you move data?


Yes, Disk Management seems
rather limited.

I was hoping --See below:

hd1
|F;\|G:\|H:|------>More partitions...

If I emptied out and deleted G:\? Would\could W2k merge
the vacant space with F:\..?
That is, in Disk Management, what happens
to the primary partition if the first/next logical volume is deleted?
Nuttin'...eh?

As far as third party software? Well. the first step in increasing the
size

of a primay partition requires creating space in the adjacent volume.
I'm ready for that----G:\ will now give up space (albeit w/third-party
software) to F:\

I'd hoped that if I eliminated the next volume (G:\) via Disk Management,
the primary partition would either pick up the slack on its own. So,
yes, it appears third party software will have to manage the
expansion of the primary partition.

As for part two? Think again?
Yes, the plan was to do a full backup of C:\. (I'd be in
win2k from drive two), at that stage--I've done this part before.

I'd park it on hd1.
Still in W2k, I would re-format C:\ *with* a single Fat32 MBR.
(The goal for this is to clean out
the multiple MBR's that reside in that sector.)

So? Why can't I simply replace (restore) W2k back to C:\?

Why is an install necessary?

All the boot files are there...the MBR is there.
Why would it *not* re-boot?
Jeeze! I'm simply *replacing* the contents of a partion into its old
home---the only diff is that there is a single MBR there.
So, at BIOS--> POST----->1MBR
Then, same ole ntldr, boot.ini and ntdetect.com and the same
EVERYTHING all drives--including both OS's!
And you say it won't re-boot without a re-install?

Exactly what is happening (or not) which requires an
install? Hell, I've had a completely corrupeted registry and
the most I had to do was use the back-ups in repair.
I really don't believe W2k will *know* what happened while
it was parked elsewhere...
It should be right at home upon its return!






On 8/18/2004 3:52 AM, DL wrote:


It appears that you have win2k installed on hd0 and hd1, for what

reason?


Unless there is some specific reason for this, move data from hd0 to
hd1

Boot from win2k cd, and perform a clean install on hd0 C?
Reinstall apps and move data back to hd0
Then move data from hd1 and format/partion hd1 as required.
Most apps allow data to be placed on a different hd/partition than the

app.


eg I have win on a seperate partition to Office, with the data files on

a


different hd.


[snipped my original note]

Thanks for your suggestion but I believe I have accounted for that
option and came here for an alternative.

I have had a two os's forever. It has saved my butt many times. I have
never gotten as much relief from a gig of space. But that's another
story...and not relevent to my goal.

Yes, I anticipated your solution...I was hoping to avoid a clean
install. ----I can move and park each of the os's, but I can't move
*all* of the data from hd0 to hd1.

Thus, my remaining query remains:
1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to
re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

2. I suppose I'll find the answer to question 2 elsewhere as no one
seems to know:----> It is not clear what happens to other partitions if
one volume is deleted via disk manager. Does the "space" morph into the
volume ahead of it or behind it or does it remain an unformatted block?

Again, (simple) two goals: Reformat primary hd0 and have a minimal
recovery after I restore the back-up of W2k (ie, not re-install--simply
restore the back-up)

---and (on hd1) create MORE space in the primary by (I hope) clearing
out and deleting the volume behind it and combining it with the primary
on hd1.

As of now, because Partition Magic screwed up the geometry on hd1 it
won't even recognize ANY partitions. It suggests I format the entire
drive (which appears healthy based on several other diagnostic tools.)
All advice suggest I ignore PM's evaluation....and move on!

Thus, I am looking to do this via the OS' disk manager--PM has failed me
before and I'm a bit leary of Ranish as they document the danger of
using their app following a PM screw-up. I'm open to any other partition
re-sizing solution.

P.S My data is already seperate from the apps.

A final query...I notice on the older OS I have a giant (80 meg) "driver
cache." Why, what is it and is there a reason to have duplicate .dll
files in that folder -- they are newer but I don't have a similar
situation in the newer os on HD0. Seems like a waste that can be
managed?

Same with the "shell cache---what 'n' why?

Again, thanks...

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Michael.

After reading (most of) the thread thus far, I have a few comments. But
first, a few caveats: My experience is only with "basic" volumes; I know
nothing of "dynamic drives". I've used only Microsoft's system for
dual-booting; I have no experience with third-party boot managers. And I
haven't used Win2K since WinXP arrived in October 2001, so if I sometimes
refer to WinXP instead of Win2K, that's why.

First, deleting any partition does NOT automatically add its space to any
other partition. Ditto deleting any logical drive in the extended
partition. Deleting any volume makes its space available, and one or more
new volumes can be created in the freed space. Or, in some situations, the
freed space can be added to the preceding contiguous volume. For details
about this, search the Help and Support Center for the word "extend" and
(very carefully!) read about DiskPart /extend. (This is DiskPart.exe, run
from inside Win2K/XP; it is NOT the same as the DiskPart command in the
Recovery Console.)

Note that there are many roadblocks to using DiskPart /extend: can't be
used for the current system or boot volumes, volume must be NTFS, etc.
Click Related Topics for more details.

Second, many of us dual-boot. I've dual-booted since Win95 and WinNT4,
including dual-booting multiple installations of Win2K and of WinXP, using 2
or 3 HDs. The basic pattern of dual-booting is a "Y", where the base of the
"Y" is always in Drive C:. (Well, not always C:, but always the "system
partition", which is the first partition on the first physical HD, which
must be a primary partition and Active (bootable); this is not always C:,
but typically it is.) After starting in the system partition, the Windows
loader progresses up to the fork of the "Y" and will load whichever OS the
user selects from the menu, using the pointers in C:\boot.ini. (The "Y" can
have more than two branches in the fork.)

Third, Disk Management can do a lot of things, but there are some things it
cannot do. It cannot do much with the current System or Boot volumes. It
cannot resize a volume, either up or down. It cannot move a volume. To do
these things, you have two choices:
1. Invest your time: backup; repartition; reformat; restore, or
2. Invest your money: use a third-party program, such as Partition Magic.

Fourth, in one message, you said:

1. By reformating the primary partition on hd0, will I have to

re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

You need to read some good references on disks and file systems. Most of
the information is in the Help file reached from Disk Management, but the
Win2K and WinXP Resource Kits have it in more readable form. And there is
no shortage of good reference books on the market. You can read the RKs
online by starting at:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/reskits/default.asp

We do not format hard disk drives. We create volumes (primary partitions
and logical drives in the extended partition) on the hard disk and format
each of those volumes. Each physical HDD has an MBR that deals with that
whole hard disk, not with the individual volumes. The MBR is not affected
at all by reformatting, except for the single byte in the Partition Table
that tells how that partition is formatted. Each volume on the HD has its
own boot sector, and this is rewritten when the volume is reformatted. So,
on your HDD-0 there is one MBR, plus a boot sector for each volume on that
HD. There is another MBR on HDD-1, plus boot sectors for the volumes on
that disk.

Next-----> Further, my boot sector(C:\) is a mess (with several operating
systems and loaders having been there) over the years.(Several utilities
"see" different MBR'S there! (I Diskmapped it and I think it is rather
huge---)

As you can see from the help files and RKs, this is garbage! The MBR and
boot sector are only a single sector each: 512 bytes. Never more, never
less. And the boot sector is completely rewritten each time, never amended.

Because of all this, I like to create a small primary partition at the front
of my first HDD, format it FAT for maximum compatibility, and use it as my
"system partition". That is, it has only the "system files": NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini. I don't install any Windows here. I create an
extended partition covering the rest of the HDD, and create logical drives
within that partition. The first logical drive (D:, usually) is where I
install Windows. Since I can install Win2K/XP on just about any volume on
any physical drive in the computer, I install a second Win2K or WinXP on a
logical drive in the extended partition on my second HDD. This way, in
addition to the usual ability to boot into the second Windows to repair the
first, I also have insurance in case my first HD becomes unreadable for any
reason. If I have to, or want to, I can boot into X: (wherever that is)
from a Win2K/XP boot floppy, which contains nothing but the NT-style boot
sector and system files. (Or from the small system partition I've created
on the second HD.) I can reformat D: without affecting E: or X: - or C:,
the system partition. Maybe some variation of my scheme will fit you.

Well, this message could go on and on, but it's too long already. If you
have further questions, please post back. But, please read some good disk
and file system reference materials first.

RC

 

[Michael]

Hi, Michael.

After reading (most of) the thread thus far, I have a few comments. But
first, a few caveats: My experience is only with "basic" volumes; I
know nothing of "dynamic drives". I've used only Microsoft's system for
dual-booting; I have no experience with third-party boot managers. And
I haven't used Win2K since WinXP arrived in October 2001, so if I
sometimes refer to WinXP instead of Win2K, that's why.

My drives are basic/Fat32---quite mundane. So far as boot managers I
only tried a couple in anticipation of experimenting with Lynux. Suffice
to say they left their fingerprints. No, there is no harm--I simply
would feel better if there was an easy way to remove them, have one MBR
and be done with it.

First, deleting any partition does NOT automatically add its space to
any other partition. Ditto deleting any logical drive in the extended
partition. Deleting any volume makes its space available, and one or
more new volumes can be created in the freed space. Or, in some
situations, the freed space can be added to the preceding contiguous
volume. For details about this, search the Help and Support Center for
the word "extend" and (very carefully!) read about DiskPart /extend.
(This is DiskPart.exe, run from inside Win2K/XP; it is NOT the same as
the DiskPart command in the Recovery Console.)

Clearly current disk management/configuration is stuck with limitations
that were set down a long time ago. Yes, it is problematic that a
primary partition is limited regarding its relationship to an extended
partition. Simply put, it appears that my several partitions following
my primary do not lend themselvs to easy manipulation in order to make
room for the primary. Even third party software doesn't make it easy to
gain space for the primary from an extended partition!

Read this summary from Pargon Partition Manager concerning gain space in
the primary from the logical drive:

"This exercise involves four steps. The logical drive must first be
reduced 200 MB, then moved to the end of the
extended partition (two steps). Then the extended partition must be
reduced in size by 200 MB by shifting its head
inward, to create extra primary free space between the partitions.
Finally the primary partition can be enlarged, using
the primary free space after it."

Clearly Partition Magic attempts to do this in one fell swoop upon
re-boot---and in my case something bad happened!

Note that there are many roadblocks to using DiskPart /extend: can't be
used for the current system or boot volumes, volume must be NTFS, etc.
Click Related Topics for more details.

Count me out---I'm basic/Fat32---

Second, many of us dual-boot. I've dual-booted since Win95 and WinNT4,
including dual-booting multiple installations of Win2K and of WinXP,
using 2 or 3 HDs. The basic pattern of dual-booting is a "Y", where the
base of the "Y" is always in Drive C:. (Well, not always C:, but always
the "system partition", which is the first partition on the first
physical HD, which must be a primary partition and Active (bootable);
this is not always C:, but typically it is.) After starting in the
system partition, the Windows loader progresses up to the fork of the
"Y" and will load whichever OS the user selects from the menu, using the
pointers in C:\boot.ini. (The "Y" can have more than two branches in
the fork.)

I'm and old dual-booter myself. Win2k is in the primary partition on
each of two drives.

Third, Disk Management can do a lot of things, but there are some things
it cannot do. It cannot do much with the current System or Boot
volumes. It cannot resize a volume, either up or down. It cannot move
a volume. To do these things, you have two choices:
1. Invest your time: backup; repartition; reformat; restore, or
2. Invest your money: use a third-party program, such as Partition Magic.

I'm leaning toward that...however, I can't back-up the entire drive. I
hope to at least be able to park the OS on drive 0 and fix the MBR
problem and park the os Plus the adjacent partition (though it is part
of an extended partition?) while I resize those two.

Fourth, in one message, you said:


re-install Wdk as primary intention is to wipe out the multiple MBR(s).
I'm sure I won't be able to directly boot into it, but I do have a boot
disk that should allow me to get to get to the console in hd1 and hope
that FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will allow a normal entry to the OS on hd0.

You need to read some good references on disks and file systems. Most
of the information is in the Help file reached from Disk Management, but
the Win2K and WinXP Resource Kits have it in more readable form. And
there is no shortage of good reference books on the market. You can
read the RKs online by starting at:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/reskits/default.asp

We do not format hard disk drives. We create volumes (primary
partitions and logical drives in the extended partition) on the hard
disk and format each of those volumes. Each physical HDD has an MBR
that deals with that whole hard disk, not with the individual volumes.
The MBR is not affected at all by reformatting, except for the single
byte in the Partition Table that tells how that partition is formatted.
Each volume on the HD has its own boot sector, and this is rewritten
when the volume is reformatted. So, on your HDD-0 there is one MBR,
plus a boot sector for each volume on that HD. There is another MBR on
HDD-1, plus boot sectors for the volumes on that disk.

Thanks, I did understand that. I was speaking of the MBR on the boot in
generic terms. Clearly, I wish to straighten out the entire mess in
those early clusters of hd0---trust me, there is more than one "MBR"
there. They aren't used as FIXBOOT and FIXMBR have "blinded" W2k from
seeing them.

As you can see from the help files and RKs, this is garbage! The MBR
and boot sector are only a single sector each: 512 bytes. Never more,
never less. And the boot sector is completely rewritten each time,
never amended.

I thought so too...you should see a snapshot to the beginning of my
drive. Have you heard of the program WinHex----it took some nice pics
and you can see from the asci txt next to the binary data that there are
clearly sectors that were put there by a couple of boot managers. They
were not overwritten by W2k...

Because of all this, I like to create a small primary partition at the
front of my first HDD, format it FAT for maximum compatibility, and use
it as my "system partition". That is, it has only the "system files":
NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini. I don't install any Windows here. I
create an extended partition covering the rest of the HDD, and create
logical drives within that partition. The first logical drive (D:,
usually) is where I install Windows. Since I can install Win2K/XP on
just about any volume on any physical drive in the computer, I install a
second Win2K or WinXP on a logical drive in the extended partition on my
second HDD. This way, in addition to the usual ability to boot into the
second Windows to repair the first, I also have insurance in case my
first HD becomes unreadable for any reason. If I have to, or want to, I
can boot into X: (wherever that is) from a Win2K/XP boot floppy, which
contains nothing but the NT-style boot sector and system files. (Or
from the small system partition I've created on the second HD.) I can
reformat D: without affecting E: or X: - or C:, the system partition.
Maybe some variation of my scheme will fit you.

Well you did clear some things up. Actually I'd like to have dos on hd0.
I use many utilities and diagonostic proggies and it would be nice to
boot directly into dos. It has never been clear to me that one could
have dos AND the nt files in a minimal partition that is FAT. Further
you are testimonial to having a second OS...
But, you are saying a minimal primary FAT can be used not only the NT
boot files, but I could also park my dos files there as well.
Thus, on my boot.ini I would have a line that said DOS and I would
execute msdos.sys and io.sys from the same FAT partition that holds the
NT boot files.

On the other hand, I ran NT and W2k (different drives, booting from C:\)
and NT was FAT.

My confusion?

My laptop is 98SE---The drive is Fat32...one partition. So how does dos
run if all the files are booting/running in a Fat32 partition.

 

[Michael]

I was'nt meaning to be difficult/awkward
The inbuilt disk management doesnt allow for ammending partition size. This
can only be accomplished using a third party tool.
If PM has failed it 'may' be an indication of underlying disk problem.
You can format a partition and reinstall a win backup
My ref. to backup was only in regard you having two o/s installs, which if
yr happy with is up to you.

Hey, I'm tough. Google me and you'll see I met worse on Usenet!

Actualy the disk is sound. You do know that LBA disks ignore CHS values.
I don't have a clue why PM finds them so valuable.

I'm considering the suggestion (here, by r.c. w to have a small primary
FAT. I could have Dos and the nt boot/start files there plus, I would
never have to worry about the limitations a primary partition has. I'll
just have it in a logical partition which is easier to manage/manipulate.

I wish MS was more forthcoming about the options in installing W2k. Not
only do they make it reflexive to go with NTFS (I avoided that)...but
they totally ignore the potential to run DOS. If the other poster is
corrrect---it would be nice to have the boot/start files for W2k in a
tiny Fat partition (w/Dos.

Say it's so!

Michael