Looking for technical info

  • Thread starter Thread starter Louis de Stoutz
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Louis de Stoutz

Hi,

I'm looking for technical info on the inner workings of the scanners I
use (Minolta Multi Pro and 5400 (old, not II), and, less important,
Epson 4870).

The subjects I need to understand better are:
- details of the optical path
and especially:
- configuration of the CCD, i.e. dimensions of the cells
and distance between the cells
- are there distinct cells for R, G and B and how are they placed,
or are the same cells used with changing filters/light source
- if distinct cells, how are they mapped to the pixels
- in general, how is the CCD signal mapped to the pixels,
i.e. are there any hard-wired filtering functions applied,
could one get to the CCD level by writing another driver,

etc. you get the picture.

Googeling around I find only user-information.
Could somebody please lead me to the right information-source?

Many thanks,
Louis
 
Louis de Stoutz said:
Hi,

I'm looking for technical info on the inner workings of the scanners I use
(Minolta Multi Pro and 5400 (old, not II), and, less important, Epson
4870).

The subjects I need to understand better are:
- details of the optical path
and especially:
- configuration of the CCD, i.e. dimensions of the cells
and distance between the cells
- are there distinct cells for R, G and B and how are they placed,
or are the same cells used with changing filters/light source
- if distinct cells, how are they mapped to the pixels
- in general, how is the CCD signal mapped to the pixels,
i.e. are there any hard-wired filtering functions applied,
could one get to the CCD level by writing another driver,

etc. you get the picture.

Googeling around I find only user-information.
Could somebody please lead me to the right information-source?

Many thanks,
Louis

Good description of the inter workings of a scanner.
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/scanner.htm
 
Thanks, Carl, but that's the kind of info I was alluding to.
I need something more detailed and, of course, specific to
the scanners I use.

Anybody else?

Louis
 
Thanks, Carl, but that's the kind of info I was alluding to.
I need something more detailed and, of course, specific to
the scanners I use.

In theory, that sort of information is only available to registered
developers after signing an NDA (non-disclosure agreement).

In practice, however, these days that level of hardware detail is
considered proprietary information and it's very unlikely anyone would
share that.

The only way to find out more is to open the device yourself or get in
touch with hardware hackers. You may try some of the Linux groups
because many low level Linux drivers are written without manufacturer
support so people do it by taking things apart to see how they work.

Don.
 
P.S. Looking at your original question again, some generic hints...

One caveat: I'm a software guy so bear that in mind when reading the
stuff below!

You really need a regular contributor here called Kennedy to explain
this is detail, but he hasn't been around lately. See PS below for an
example. Use the keywords from the quote to Google for more info.
I'm looking for technical info on the inner workings of the scanners I
use (Minolta Multi Pro and 5400 (old, not II), and, less important,
Epson 4870).

The subjects I need to understand better are:
- details of the optical path

There's usually a mirror at some stage, either to redirect the light
from the light source, or to reflect the image to the CDD array.

Just curious, but why do you need to know this?
and especially:
- configuration of the CCD, i.e. dimensions of the cells
and distance between the cells

It's usually a single row of CCDs cells although some film scanners
(but not Minolta) use two rows to speed up scanning, while some
flatbeds use two rows (staggered by half a pixel) to increase
resolution, etc.

You should try CCD cell manufacturers. That sort of information should
be available as specifications including electrical data etc.
- are there distinct cells for R, G and B and how are they placed,
or are the same cells used with changing filters/light source

In general (I know, not much help...) but there is usually a single
cell with filters in front, or filters in front the light source.

I know you asked about Minolta, but as clarification Nikon film
scanners use different color LEDs so they don't need filters resulting
in better color purity and color separation.
- if distinct cells, how are they mapped to the pixels

In general, directly except in case of staggered twin arrays (flatbed)
when the pixels are interpolated. However, do note that "stuff" is
done to (really) raw data before it even leaves the scanner.
- in general, how is the CCD signal mapped to the pixels,
i.e. are there any hard-wired filtering functions applied,
could one get to the CCD level by writing another driver,

The problem is a lot happens in firmware. That is to say, unless you
are prepared to rewrite the firmware you have to work with what the
scanner delivers.

Don.

P.S.
 
Now that's a P.S. how I like them ;-)

Thank you very much, Don, for having taken the time to answer my
question in detail. That does get me further, be it only to know that I
won't find that kind of info served on a silver platter.

Let me give you the background of my thoughts to answer some of your
questions, and maybe prompt complementary, better targeted answers from
you and others.

I use the scanners in my normal B&W workflow, where I still work with
film (and hope to do so for a long time). I am thus looking for every
way to squeeze the maximum out of those machines.

I've been preoccupied by the recently resurfaced subject of "grain
alias" (or however one wants to call it) for a long time now, and my
approach is clearly to try to catch the photographic grain as well as
possible. This means highest possible resolution.

At some point I was hoping that if they use different CCDs for the three
wavelengths, and if they don't compensate for the different locations
of those arrays, there may have been a way to interweave the pixels of
the 3 channels such as to get a higher monochrome resolution...
But my feet must have lost contact with the ground by now, and I should
try to get down again.

(In the meantime I've found out that the Multi-Pro has an "RGB 3-line
CCD". But how? All close together, staggered, under the same "lens", or
is the light beam split into 3, such that the arrays get exactly the
same signal, geometrically speaking?)

But, as I can see, Kennedy answered just that in your P.S. to the P.S.

I am further interested in the geometry of the array because I would
like to do my own research/modeling of how the image of the photographic
grain is being distorted when it gets in the neighbourhood of the
scanner's resolution.

For the details of the optical path, I'm just curious about the kind of
optics they use. Ordinary circular lenses, or maybe rather long
cylindrical ones (since the info to be reproduced is basically
one-dimensional)? What shapes are used for the diaphragm, if there is
one at all? And so on, all this having an impact on the way tiny signals
like grain are being handled.

Although I'm a software person too, I'm not too eager to write something
that goes that deep down the layers towards the hardware. But maybe some
kind of smart Photoshop plugin based on exact knowledge of what's in my
(as raw as possible) files?

Louis.
 
Now that's a P.S. how I like them ;-)
:-)

Thank you very much, Don, for having taken the time to answer my
question in detail.

You're most welcome. As you could see from that P.S. (and this loooong
message) it's the type of thing I also like to learn more about.
I use the scanners in my normal B&W workflow, where I still work with
film (and hope to do so for a long time). I am thus looking for every
way to squeeze the maximum out of those machines.

I'm just scanning my slide, negative and prints collection but I also
want to achieve maximum quality. That's because I archive the original
scans and then edit a copy to create processed results for viewing on
a monitor (I don't print).

Therefore, I scan "raw". If you check this group's archives there were
many messages on the subject. Basically it means scanning at maximum
resolution and color depth the scanner is capable of without using any
of the editing features of scanner software. In other words, get
"uncontaminated" data directly from the scanner. The only exception is
hardware based feature such as ICE because you can't do that later.
Such a "raw" scan is often called a "digital negative".

In theory a pure "raw" scan should also be in gamma 1.0 but, like most
people, I don't do that because I work in gamma 2.2 so the first step
would be a conversion to 2.2 anyway. But it certainly doesn't hurt to
scan in gamma 1.0.
I've been preoccupied by the recently resurfaced subject of "grain
alias" (or however one wants to call it) for a long time now, and my
approach is clearly to try to catch the photographic grain as well as
possible. This means highest possible resolution.

That was one of my first concerns too. The trouble is grain is a very
"elastic" thing.

Nominally a 4000 dpi scanner should get everything on the film. The
only exception may be a perfectly exposed shot taken with a tripod
and high quality film. The key word here is "may". It also depends on
scanner optics, etc.

However, not all grain is the same size. Every film has some grain
which is very small. The consensus seems to be that in order to get
every piece of grain regardless of film rating is to have a scanner
with about 10,000 dpi, in other words a drum scanner.

But there's a catch. At this level of precision the scanner does not
see film as flat. The film also has a depth (i.e. thickness). That's
why grain is often called "grain clouds".

Given all that, 4000 is most likely to be enough resolution but 5400
doesn't hurt, although scanner optics or the shot may make the
difference hard or even impossible to see.

Finally, as I like to say, a scanned image is really "a picture of a
picture". When one scans film one is taking a picture of this film,
not of the original subject! (That's why I went digital to avoid this
intermediate step although lately I've been tempted to go back to try
these new low grain films specifically made for scanning.)
At some point I was hoping that if they use different CCDs for the three
wavelengths, and if they don't compensate for the different locations
of those arrays, there may have been a way to interweave the pixels of
the 3 channels such as to get a higher monochrome resolution...
But my feet must have lost contact with the ground by now, and I should
try to get down again.

I know! From time to time, I do a "reality check" and ask myself if
I'm going too far in this quest for perfection and maximum quality.
It's good to consider that and make reasonable compromises.

But speaking of B&W film, two things. I scan B&W film in color because
different LEDs (in my Nikon scanner) sample different wavelengths.
This makes it easier to make corrections later. Which leads me to the
second thing: I noticed that the 3 channels are *not* in sync i.e.
there's a slight sub-pixel misalignment! Anyway, see below another
interesting PS with more wisdom from Kennedy about this! ;o)

In brief, things working against perfect channel alignment are:
- residual scanner head motion
- finite misalignment of LED sources on the optic axis.
I am further interested in the geometry of the array because I would
like to do my own research/modeling of how the image of the photographic
grain is being distorted when it gets in the neighbourhood of the
scanner's resolution.

The CCD array is linear which means they are just next to each other.
The only exception is the twin array CCDs as mentioned earlier.

You probably know this already, but that's not the same as what
happens in digital cameras where the array is two dimensional. There
are a number of different ways these chips work but the most common is
the so-called "Bayer pattern". This means that each "software" (image)
pixel is generated from 4 "hardware" pixels (samples) arranged in a
regular square pattern (1 red, 1 blue and 2 (!) green). There are
variations on this theme (hexagonal pattern, pixel in pixel, etc) but
that's the basic principle.

Anyway, the reason there are two green pixels is because humans are
more sensitive to green than to other two colors. The human perception
ratio is (roughly) red 30%, green 59% and blue 11%. These 4 samples
are then mathematically combined to create a "pixel". But since they
don't occupy the same space (obviously) the result is "blurry". Our
eyes interpret such results as "smooth". Also, don't forget that there
is much more post-processing in a digicam (usually involving
interpolation!) than in a scanner.

So scanners nominally produce a much better result but (as I mentioned
above) the problem is scanners sample the film's impression of the
real world while digicams sample the real world directly!
For the details of the optical path, I'm just curious about the kind of
optics they use. Ordinary circular lenses, or maybe rather long
cylindrical ones (since the info to be reproduced is basically
one-dimensional)? What shapes are used for the diaphragm, if there is
one at all? And so on, all this having an impact on the way tiny signals
like grain are being handled.

This is something Kennedy would be perfect for!
Although I'm a software person too, I'm not too eager to write something
that goes that deep down the layers towards the hardware. But maybe some
kind of smart Photoshop plugin based on exact knowledge of what's in my
(as raw as possible) files?

I actually did try to go that deep and even got the software developer
kit (SDK) from Nikon. The trouble is the SDK is still far too high a
level for my taste.

Anyway, I ended up writing my own scanner program but my concern was
more about the dynamic range, specifically as it relates to
Kodachromes. It's all finished now, but I scanned each slide twice
(multi-pass) and then combined them after sub-pixel alignment and my
own version of "tone mapping" (I actually extract the characteristic
curve of each two scans which gives me maximum flexibility).

But what I really wanted to do is perform this "twin scan" single-pass
in firmware to eliminate sub-pixel alignment, but that just proved to
be too time consuming. Nikon doesn't provide any information about the
firmware so it would mean disassembling the firmware and I just didn't
have the time - although I love doing things like that.

The bottom line is I started this some 3 years ago thinking I will
finish in a month or two. Instead, I learned more than I ever wanted
to and ended up writing three programs!

Don.

P.S.
 
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