Latest Athlon 64 product introductions

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Yousuf Khan

AMD introduced 4 new Athlon 64 and FX models. However each one seems to be
designed for three different types of sockets. Athlon 64 3500+ and 3800+ are
designed for the Socket 939, while Athlon 64 3700+ is designed for Socket
754. Meanwhile are now two FX-53 models, the older one designed for Socket
940, while the newer one is designed for Socket 939. There's a table in this
article to help you keep it all clear in your mind:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1605309,00.asp

Yousuf Khan
 
Yousuf Khan said:
AMD introduced 4 new Athlon 64 and FX models. However each one seems to be
designed for three different types of sockets. Athlon 64 3500+ and 3800+ are
designed for the Socket 939, while Athlon 64 3700+ is designed for Socket
754. Meanwhile are now two FX-53 models, the older one designed for Socket
940, while the newer one is designed for Socket 939. There's a table in this
article to help you keep it all clear in your mind:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1605309,00.asp

This is silly, how many socket types does one line of processors
require? Will there be a socket 941 next week?

Quote:
The FX-53 and 3500+, 3700+ and 3800+ include the Sunnyvale, Calif.,
company's Enhanced Virus Protection technology, which will be enabled
with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows XP Service Pack 2 release later this year
and is designed to add another layer of protection to desktops and
notebooks.
/Qoute

This is also absurd. CPU's should not be engineered to solve MS design
deficiencies.
 
Good point.

The more different "consumer" opterons (939/754) are released the
better the "real" opteron looks.

Really AMD is only following the market leader Intel. Intel and AMD
have had enough of folks running desktop processors for workstations
and/or servers. So therefore the best thing to do is engineer an
artifical difference. No more xp's running as mp's. AMD has finally
caught up with the p4/xeon duo. AMD has the amd64/opteron duo.

Whatever sounds confusing with all the models but still a lot better
than trying to decide which drug discount card to buy. Now that is a
real mess. ;-). Also a real ripoff.

Later




Anthony> This is silly, how many socket types does one line of
Anthony> processors require? Will there be a socket 941 next week?

Anthony> Quote: The FX-53 and 3500+, 3700+ and 3800+ include the
Anthony> Sunnyvale, Calif., company's Enhanced Virus Protection
Anthony> technology, which will be enabled with Microsoft Corp.'s
Anthony> Windows XP Service Pack 2 release later this year and is
Anthony> designed to add another layer of protection to desktops and
Anthony> notebooks. /Qoute

Anthony> This is also absurd. CPU's should not be engineered to solve
Anthony> MS design deficiencies.
 
This is silly, how many socket types does one line of processors
require? Will there be a socket 941 next week?

This has been discussed before, but to sum up briefly:

- Originally all Athlon64 processors were to be socket 754, that's it,
that's all. Socket 940 would be used for all Opteron processors and
never the two shall meet

- Then a few months before the Athlon64 was released, dual-channel
memory became a checkmark feature that all high-end systems needed to
have. Socket 754 wouldn't cut it and AMD needed something quick.
Easy solution: take an Opteron and sell it as a desktop chip in socket
940.

- For the long-term though, AMD needed a proper solution, one designed
for dual-channel memory for the desktop. The result is socket 939.

That should be it for sockets for the entire K8 line-up. 3 sockets
actually isn't all that bad, especially if you compare it to Intel's
P4/Xeon line. They started with Socket 423 for the desktop and Socket
603 for workstations/server. Then moved to Socket 474 for the
desktop/laptop and socket 604 for workstations/servers. In another
couple months they'll move to a totally new socket 775 for desktops
(and laptops?), and they may have another new socket for servers soon.

The PIII was even worse though, since it actually had three different
and not-quite-compatible Socket 370s as well as Slot 1, not to mention
Slot 2 for servers. AMD's old Athlon chips also went through a few
revisions, first going from Slot A to Socket A and then changing the
voltage and bus speed sufficiently that old socket A boards couldn't
handle new chips.

Long story short, socket changes are the norm, not the exception. AMD
having only 3 sockets for a processor core isn't too bad.
Quote:
The FX-53 and 3500+, 3700+ and 3800+ include the Sunnyvale, Calif.,
company's Enhanced Virus Protection technology, which will be enabled
with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows XP Service Pack 2 release later this year
and is designed to add another layer of protection to desktops and
notebooks.
/Qoute

This is also absurd. CPU's should not be engineered to solve MS design
deficiencies.

Again, this has been discussed at length, but the short version of
this is that it's a feature that *SHOULD* have been in the processor
long ago. x86 was one of a very small number of high-end
architectures that doesn't already have this feature (except in
segmentation, and there's already a big flame-war going on about that
is this newsgroup!).

It's not just for Windows either, Linux and some of the BSD's already
make use of this security feature in their x86-64 distributions. Of
course, calling it "Virus Protection" is a total misnomer, it won't do
a thing to stop viruses. What it will help prevent is worms and
hacking attempts through buffer overruns. However the difference
between a "virus" and a "worm" has been pretty much lost on the
mainstream media, let along the general public.
 
Anthony Fremont said:
Quote:
The FX-53 and 3500+, 3700+ and 3800+ include the Sunnyvale, Calif.,
company's Enhanced Virus Protection technology, which will be
enabled with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows XP Service Pack 2 release
later this year and is designed to add another layer of protection
to desktops and notebooks.
/Qoute

This is also absurd. CPU's should not be engineered to solve MS
design deficiencies.

this is NX bit, some stupid marketoid turned it into "av protection tech
bla bla, and now we rule baby" "/


Pozdrawiam.
 
Tony Hill said:
Again, this has been discussed at length, but the short version of
this is that it's a feature that *SHOULD* have been in the processor
long ago. x86 was one of a very small number of high-end
architectures that doesn't already have this feature (except in
segmentation, and there's already a big flame-war going on about that
is this newsgroup!).

It's not just for Windows either, Linux and some of the BSD's already
make use of this security feature in their x86-64 distributions. Of
course, calling it "Virus Protection" is a total misnomer, it won't do
a thing to stop viruses. What it will help prevent is worms and
hacking attempts through buffer overruns. However the difference
between a "virus" and a "worm" has been pretty much lost on the
mainstream media, let along the general public.

In light of that, I agree with you. Rather than taking the comment at
face value, I should have looked to see what was really being added to
the proc. I know better than to listen to media hype, but I guess I got
caught with my pants down on that one by taking their comment at face
value. Segment protection features in the CPU as you described are
sensible.
 
RusH said:
this is NX bit, some stupid marketoid turned it into "av protection tech
bla bla, and now we rule baby" "/

Ahh....ok. That's allot more sensible than "antivirus protection". NX
is a good idea, data pages shouldn't be executable and code pages
shouldn't be writable (well most of the time anyway ;-).
 
Anthony Fremont said:
This is silly, how many socket types does one line of processors
require? Will there be a socket 941 next week?

There were originally only two sockets available, Socket 754 and 940. Socket
754 was for single-channel, unbuffered DDR RAM; it was only going to be used
by Athlon 64 systems. Socket 940 was dual-channel, buffered DDR RAM; it was
only to be used by Opteron systems. But then it introduced the Athlon 64 FX
which was really a rebadged Opteron. Thus Athlon 64 FX and Opteron were
sharing the same type of motherboard platform, so the distinction between
Opteron and Athlon 64 blurred.

Later AMD decided that it would like Athlon 64 systems to be dual-channel
too like the Opterons, but it didn't want them to use the expensive buffered
RAM like the Opterons. So Socket 939 was born -- dual-channel, unbuffered
DDR RAM.
Quote:
The FX-53 and 3500+, 3700+ and 3800+ include the Sunnyvale, Calif.,
company's Enhanced Virus Protection technology, which will be enabled
with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows XP Service Pack 2 release later this
year and is designed to add another layer of protection to desktops
and notebooks.
/Qoute

This is also absurd. CPU's should not be engineered to solve MS
design deficiencies.

Well, "anti-virus" is really a marketing term. It's really a type of
anti-buffer overflow feature, and it's not really something meant to be used
against viruses, but against worms.

Yousuf Khan
 
Yousuf> and 940. Socket 754 was for single-channel, unbuffered DDR
Yousuf> RAM; it was only going to be used by Athlon 64 systems.
Yousuf> Socket 940 was dual-channel, buffered DDR RAM; it was only to
Yousuf> be used by Opteron systems. But then it introduced the Athlon
Yousuf> 64 FX which was really a rebadged Opteron. Thus Athlon 64 FX
Yousuf> and Opteron were sharing the same type of motherboard
Yousuf> platform, so the distinction between Opteron and Athlon 64
Yousuf> blurred.

A quick question if one believes the recent benchmarks posted at
several sites it appears the performance advantage of dual-channel
memory over single-channel is really not significant. With faster
processors or faster memory will dual-channel memory make significant
performance gains over single-channel memory in the future? I guess
does the market expect dual channel because that appears to be the
standard?

Thanks
 
Yousuf said:
There were originally only two sockets available, Socket 754 and 940. Socket
754 was for single-channel, unbuffered DDR RAM; it was only going to be used
by Athlon 64 systems. Socket 940 was dual-channel, buffered DDR RAM; it was
only to be used by Opteron systems. But then it introduced the Athlon 64 FX
which was really a rebadged Opteron. Thus Athlon 64 FX and Opteron were
sharing the same type of motherboard platform, so the distinction between
Opteron and Athlon 64 blurred.

Later AMD decided that it would like Athlon 64 systems to be dual-channel
too like the Opterons, but it didn't want them to use the expensive buffered
RAM like the Opterons. So Socket 939 was born -- dual-channel, unbuffered
DDR RAM.

There is no "later" about it. AMD planned for sockets 754, 939
and 940 right from day one. Manufacturers were eager to start
making socket 939 boards a full year ago - there just weren't
any Socket 939 chips. No point in making the boards if the
consumers can't buy chips to put in them. And now that the 939
chips are finally starting to come out, manufacturers seem to
have lost a lot of their initial enthusiasm for Socket 939 -
probably due in part to the success of Socket 754. They seem
to be happy with 754 for now and seem to be planning on tying
939 together with PCI-E for the next generation of desktops
rather than for today.
 
Post Replies Here Please said:
Yousuf> and 940. Socket 754 was for single-channel, unbuffered DDR
Yousuf> RAM; it was only going to be used by Athlon 64 systems.
Yousuf> Socket 940 was dual-channel, buffered DDR RAM; it was only to
Yousuf> be used by Opteron systems. But then it introduced the Athlon
Yousuf> 64 FX which was really a rebadged Opteron. Thus Athlon 64 FX
Yousuf> and Opteron were sharing the same type of motherboard
Yousuf> platform, so the distinction between Opteron and Athlon 64
Yousuf> blurred.

A quick question if one believes the recent benchmarks posted at
several sites it appears the performance advantage of dual-channel
memory over single-channel is really not significant.

This is quite believable. Theoretically, dual-channel memory delivers
twice the _peak_ memory bandwidth. In real life, however, the
performance gain is lowered due to the latency of the memories are
incurred almost every time the processor makes a jump in the
addressing to the RAM.

So streaming memory bandwidth tests will show you x2 the bandwidth,
but it is very seldom this is obtainable for your joe-average program.
With faster
processors or faster memory will dual-channel memory make significant
performance gains over single-channel memory in the future? I guess
does the market expect dual channel because that appears to be the
standard?

I haven't done any research on this, but I'd expect that the built-in
memory controller to have a bigger impact than single/dual-channel
memory.

Regards,


Kai
 
Yousuf> and 940. Socket 754 was for single-channel, unbuffered DDR
Yousuf> RAM; it was only going to be used by Athlon 64 systems.
Yousuf> Socket 940 was dual-channel, buffered DDR RAM; it was only to
Yousuf> be used by Opteron systems. But then it introduced the Athlon
Yousuf> 64 FX which was really a rebadged Opteron. Thus Athlon 64 FX
Yousuf> and Opteron were sharing the same type of motherboard
Yousuf> platform, so the distinction between Opteron and Athlon 64
Yousuf> blurred.

A quick question if one believes the recent benchmarks posted at
several sites it appears the performance advantage of dual-channel
memory over single-channel is really not significant.

This is not altogether surprising, though the difference does exist at
least. This page on Ace's Hardware has a good run-down of how much
dual-channel memory helps:

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=65000314

Quick summary: performance increases anywhere from 0% up to 23.8%, but
with the average being about 3.9% for the 28 benchmarks they ran.
Nothing huge, but it is worth about a speed grade of a processor.

Another nice advantage of dual-channel Athlon64 systems is that they
allow more memory to be installed. The single-channel Socket 754
Athlon64 chips could only handle a maximum of 3 DIMMs, and many boards
either didn't have the third DIMM slot or they weren't reliable if all
3 DIMM slots were used. The new dual-channel Socket 939 Athlon64
systems can handle up to 4 DIMMs reliably (though usually with
somewhat slower memory timings).
With faster
processors or faster memory will dual-channel memory make significant
performance gains over single-channel memory in the future?

Not likely. Latency is most important for most applications,
bandwidth is somewhat secondary.

In fact, despite populate belief, dual-channel memory doesn't help
performance for Intel chips much either and they are already running
at 3GHz+. Take a look sometime at a comparison between Intel's 848
(single channel) and otherwise identical 865PE (dual-channel)
chipsets. Performance difference is a bit larger than for these AMD
chips, but typically only in the 4-5% range.

A lot of people thought that P4 chips were super-bandwidth hungry
because of early comparison between the single-channel 845 chipset and
the dual-channel 875 chipset, but now it seems that most of the
performance difference came from factors other than just memory
bandwidth (perhaps most importantly is that Intel did a bang-up job in
getting super-low memory latency on the i875 chipset).
I guess
does the market expect dual channel because that appears to be the
standard?

That's pretty much it. Intel has dual-channel, therefore AMD should
have dual-channel as well, right?
 
Post Replies Here Please said:
A quick question if one believes the recent benchmarks posted at
several sites it appears the performance advantage of dual-channel
memory over single-channel is really not significant. With faster
processors or faster memory will dual-channel memory make significant
performance gains over single-channel memory in the future? I guess
does the market expect dual channel because that appears to be the
standard?

I think AMD might be able save some money by going dual-channel. It looks
like the benchmarks show that you get pretty identical performance if you
halve the cache, but go dual-channel. Reducing the cache would help the
price of these things.

Yousuf Khan
 
Another nice advantage of dual-channel Athlon64 systems is that they
allow more memory to be installed. The single-channel Socket 754
Athlon64 chips could only handle a maximum of 3 DIMMs, and many boards
either didn't have the third DIMM slot or they weren't reliable if all
3 DIMM slots were used.

Dunno who's rule it is but the recent MSI K8T Neo mbrd I did with Athlon64
does not support the 3 DIMMs at DDR400 - right there in the manual. That's
with unbuffered DIMMs of course.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
Thanks to all for the interesting discussion about dual channel vs.
single channel memory. Also thanks for the link.

Alan
 
Later AMD decided that it would like Athlon 64 systems to be dual-channel
too like the Opterons, but it didn't want them to use the expensive buffered
RAM like the Opterons. So Socket 939 was born -- dual-channel, unbuffered
DDR RAM.

939 boards are also cheaper to make, 4 layer instead of 6.
 
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