Kodak Paper on an Epson :-(

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Paul Furman

I just got an Epson R1800 & picked up a small pack of 11x17 Kodak
primium high glass photo paper to begin playing. The results are awful.
To start with it needed quite some time to dry & there were marks on
both ends from the printer toughing while wet, and the result looked
quite banded though to some extent that seems to be the texture of the
flimsy lumpy paper.

Is this paper simply incompatible or just crummy or I really need to
download a profile to get the correct amount of ink?

This was my test image:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/Santa-Cruz/2005-01-26&PG=10>
Lots of black which came out horribly banded on my previous cheap Epson
printer on Office Depot brand paper. I knew it would be challenging but
still.
 
I just got an Epson R1800 & picked up a small pack of 11x17 Kodak
primium high glass photo paper to begin playing. The results are awful.
To start with it needed quite some time to dry & there were marks on
both ends from the printer toughing while wet, and the result looked
quite banded though to some extent that seems to be the texture of the
flimsy lumpy paper.

Is this paper simply incompatible or just crummy or I really need to
download a profile to get the correct amount of ink?
Click to expand...

I would say incompatible.
 
Ed said:
I would say incompatible.
Click to expand...

Hmph. I looked up the Kodak web site & they list my Epson model but not
for that paper. I figured because it's a new printer though. Kodak's web
site suggested downloading their software, I got as far as registering
so I could see the tutorial and it's just a dumbed down picture browser
with a print button.

The settings (if not using their software) are very minimal.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=9/36/1963&pq-locale=en_US
then pull down the Epson R1800 & it doesn't list any premium glossy
papers so it would seem it is incompatible or they haven't updated yet.


Epson Stylus Photo R1800
KODAK Paper Product - Ink Cartridge - Paper/Media - Advanced Settings
Kodak Picture Paper Matte
PP-2-M Photo Enhanced Matte Photo
Kodak Matte Paper
PP-2-M Photo Enhanced Matte Photo
Kodak Picture Paper
PP-1-A Photo Plain Paper Photo
Kodak Anytime Picture Paper
APP-2-A Photo Plain Paper Photo
Kodak Everyday Picture Paper
APP-2-A Photo Plain Paper Photo
Kodak Scrapbook Matte Paper
SCPP-1-M Photo Enhanced Matte Photo

Anybody want $30 worth of 24 sheets 11x17?

I can see the problem is it put down too much ink. I wonder what paper
type setting gives less ink.
 
Paul Furman said:
I just got an Epson R1800 & picked up a small pack of 11x17 Kodak primium
high glass photo paper to begin playing. The results are awful. To start
with it needed quite some time to dry & there were marks on both ends from
the printer toughing while wet, and the result looked quite banded though
to some extent that seems to be the texture of the flimsy lumpy paper.

Is this paper simply incompatible or just crummy or I really need to
download a profile to get the correct amount of ink?

This was my test image:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/Santa-Cruz/2005-01-26&PG=10>
Lots of black which came out horribly banded on my previous cheap Epson
printer on Office Depot brand paper. I knew it would be challenging but
still.

--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com
Click to expand...

Hi there.

Seems a bit odd to me to go and buy a really good printer like the R1800,
and then to only buy Kodak Paper which is not really any cheaper than the
Epson Premium Glossy.

You have found out that Kodak Paper is incompatible with it, and to the best
of my knowledge Kodak only publish profiles for their "Professional" papers.
If you are using Col. Management, it would be best to find out which papers
have Profiles supplied, before buying. Tetenal and Olmec do supply
Profiles. If you are in the UK then 7 Day Shop's own brand is more than a
little similar to Olmec, and is reasonably priced.

I have seen Prints from this machine which were done on a "cheap" matt
paper, which were excellent, but I have forgotten which paper.

Roy G
 
The previous high end pigment printers from epson couldn't handle gloss. It
used to run. I suspect if you stick to matte finish or satin you may fair
better. you really need to use absorbent papers.
 
Paul said:
Hmph. I looked up the Kodak web site & they list my Epson model but not
for that paper. I figured because it's a new printer though. Kodak's web
site suggested downloading their software, I got as far as registering
so I could see the tutorial and it's just a dumbed down picture browser
with a print button.

The settings (if not using their software) are very minimal.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=9/36/1963&pq-locale=en_US

then pull down the Epson R1800 & it doesn't list any premium glossy
papers so it would seem it is incompatible or they haven't updated yet.


Epson Stylus Photo R1800
KODAK Paper Product - Ink Cartridge - Paper/Media - Advanced Settings
Kodak Picture Paper Matte
PP-2-M Photo Enhanced Matte Photo
Kodak Matte Paper
PP-2-M Photo Enhanced Matte Photo
Kodak Picture Paper
PP-1-A Photo Plain Paper Photo
Kodak Anytime Picture Paper
APP-2-A Photo Plain Paper Photo
Kodak Everyday Picture Paper
APP-2-A Photo Plain Paper Photo
Kodak Scrapbook Matte Paper
SCPP-1-M Photo Enhanced Matte Photo

Anybody want $30 worth of 24 sheets 11x17?

I can see the problem is it put down too much ink. I wonder what paper
type setting gives less ink.
Click to expand...

You have to goto the R800 its all there.

My experience with the Kodak paper with the R1800 is not good. The best
paper I have used is the Ilford Galerie both gloss and smooth pearl.
Ilford have profiles to use with it on there site.

rm
 
KODAK PAPER IS SHIT. MANY GLOSSY PAPERS DO NOT PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS
WITH PIGMENTED INK. FIND AN EPSON GLOSSY PAPER THAT IS RECOMMENDED FOR
THE PRINTER. THEN TRY SMALL QUANTITIES OF OFFICE DEPOT, STAPLES, AND
COSTCO-KIRKLAND.

IN THE LONG RUN YOU MAY HAVE TO USE ALL EPSON PRODUCTS TO GET THE BEST
RESULTS.
 
ian said:
The previous high end pigment printers from epson couldn't handle gloss. It
used to run. I suspect if you stick to matte finish or satin you may fair
better. you really need to use absorbent papers.
Click to expand...


I emailed Kodak to see if it is truly incompatible. Kind of ticks me off
to spend $30 & it says real clearly on the package that it "works on all
inkjet printers including epson". What you say about needing absorbent
paper sounds right because it came out so sticky & made marks running
through the machine on both ends I had to crop off.

I'll probably tinker around with settings on quarter sheets & come up
with something usable. I guess the banding isn't so bad once it's dry.
 
Roy said:
Seems a bit odd to me to go and buy a really good printer like the R1800,
and then to only buy Kodak Paper which is not really any cheaper than the
Epson Premium Glossy.
Click to expand...


Yeah, there wasn't any 11x17 Epson paper in the stores, I'll have to
mail order it. I just wanted some to get started with.
 
Rob said:
You have to goto the R800 its all there.
Click to expand...

Nothing tricky, see my paste of that below. I wonder if the R800 is the
same technology.

KODAK Paper Product - Ink Cartridge - Paper/Media - Advanced Settings

Kodak Premium Picture Paper
PPP-3-A Photo Premium Glossy Photo Paper Best Photo
My experience with the Kodak paper with the R1800 is not good. The best
paper I have used is the Ilford Galerie both gloss and smooth pearl.
Ilford have profiles to use with it on there site.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
Paul said:
Yeah, there wasn't any 11x17 Epson paper in the stores, I'll have to
mail order it. I just wanted some to get started with.
Click to expand...

I only buy A3+ 329x483mm (compared with A3 297x420 mm which I assum
you are talking about)



 
Paul said:
Nothing tricky, see my paste of that below. I wonder if the R800 is the
same technology.

KODAK Paper Product - Ink Cartridge - Paper/Media - Advanced Settings

Kodak Premium Picture Paper
PPP-3-A Photo Premium Glossy Photo Paper Best Photo
Click to expand...

Yes its the same ink as the same cartridges are for the R800/R1800.
 
Paul said:
I just got an Epson R1800 & picked up a small pack of 11x17 Kodak
primium high glass photo paper to begin playing. The results are awful.
To start with it needed quite some time to dry & there were marks on
both ends from the printer toughing while wet, and the result looked
quite banded though to some extent that seems to be the texture of the
flimsy lumpy paper.

Is this paper simply incompatible or just crummy or I really need to
download a profile to get the correct amount of ink?

This was my test image:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/Santa-Cruz/2005-01-26&PG=10>

Lots of black which came out horribly banded on my previous cheap Epson
printer on Office Depot brand paper. I knew it would be challenging but
still.
Click to expand...
I mentioned this in an answer to another of your threads below.
Many gloss photo papers are coated with a "swellable polymer" top layer
which is intended to absorb dye inks, thus protecting the dyestuff from
gas fading. The pigments in Ultrachrome ink do not penetrate into the
surface layer and sit "unbound" on top, thus you get poor colour, slow
drying, terrible mar resistance, and lose one of the main advantages of
pigment ink photo printing - water resistant archival printing.
The correct photo papers are "micro-porous", sometimes referred to as
ceramic coated, or "fast-dry" papers. Examples are Epson Premium
Gloss/Semi-Gloss Photo Paper, Ilford Galerie "Smooth" (NOT "Classic")
Gloss and Pearl.
Kodak actually make some of this type of paper in their pro range, but
it's not available where I live. Their retail/consumer photo paper is
garbage with an epson pigment printer.
The Ilford Paper is my current preferred paper. Profiles are
downloadable from Ilford's website. It's a brighter white base than the
Epson equivalents, and well priced - especially in that as I have a
rotary paper cutter and it's one of the few ranges of paper where one a3
sheet actually costs less than two a4 sheets.
 
ian said:
The previous high end pigment printers from epson couldn't handle gloss. It
used to run. I suspect if you stick to matte finish or satin you may fair
better. you really need to use absorbent papers.
Click to expand...
The R800/1800/2400 etc can handle gloss paper of the correct type.
The problem is that the paper used was "swellable polymer" type intended
for dye ink printers - not pigment.
 
I believe the paper is guaranteed so you should be able to get a refund
if appropriate.

Art
 
I would simply like to point out that you have an expenssive, high quality
printer that you obviously have no clue about how to set up and use and have
spent no time or effort on it other than whipping out the old credit card.
Why would anyone buy an expensive, high end printer like this and run cheapo
paper through it in an uncontrolled fashion and expect anything but
disaster?
Buying a Leica (or the hi end camera of choice) does not make one a good
photographer any more than buying an expensive printer makes one an expert
printer.
Learn color management and the ins and outs of your printer, as well as how
to manipulate an image in Photoshop.
You will never post about Office Depot paper again.
 
frederick said:
I mentioned this in an answer to another of your threads below.
Many gloss photo papers are coated with a "swellable polymer" top
layer which is intended to absorb dye inks, thus protecting the
dyestuff from gas fading. The pigments in Ultrachrome ink do not
penetrate into the surface layer and sit "unbound" on top, thus you
get poor colour, slow drying, terrible mar resistance, and lose one of
the main advantages of pigment ink photo printing - water resistant
archival printing.
The correct photo papers are "micro-porous", sometimes referred to as
ceramic coated, or "fast-dry" papers. Examples are Epson Premium
Gloss/Semi-Gloss Photo Paper, Ilford Galerie "Smooth" (NOT "Classic")
Gloss and Pearl.
Kodak actually make some of this type of paper in their pro range, but
it's not available where I live. Their retail/consumer photo paper is
garbage with an epson pigment printer.
The Ilford Paper is my current preferred paper. Profiles are
downloadable from Ilford's website. It's a brighter white base than
the Epson equivalents, and well priced - especially in that as I have
a rotary paper cutter and it's one of the few ranges of paper where
one a3 sheet actually costs less than two a4 sheets.
Click to expand...
 
frederick said:
The R800/1800/2400 etc can handle gloss paper of the correct type.
The problem is that the paper used was "swellable polymer" type intended
for dye ink printers - not pigment.
Click to expand...


Thanks, it just pisses me off that the package says very clearly it's
suitable for all inket printers, the fine print even mentions dye &
pigment inks. If it's not suitable for dye inks, they should change the
labelling.
 
I should have said "pigment" not dye, my mistake...

Paul said:
frederick said:
The R800/1800/2400 etc can handle gloss paper of the correct type.
The problem is that the paper used was "swellable polymer" type
intended for dye ink printers - not pigment.
Click to expand...



Thanks, it just pisses me off that the package says very clearly it's
suitable for all inket printers, the fine print even mentions dye &
pigment inks. If it's not suitable for dye [should read pigment]
inks, they should change the labelling.
Click to expand...
 
Firstly, it would have been nice to have a partial quote from the
previous poster to know which posting your comments apply to...

However, I won't suggest you should never step foot on the internet
again as a result ;-) (your posting is quoted under mine, BTW).

I work with Epson printers everyday of my life, both in terms of helping
people with repairs and use, and in my own fine art work.

I TOTALLY disagree with your comments and attitude.

I continually test and try differing papers and move around with inks.
I play with papers not even designed for inkjet use, and I certainly try
all sorts of non-Epson papers, from other manufacturers.

Do you think Office Depot MAKES the paper they sell under their name?
In the US, it appears they repackage Konica-Minolta paper and I only
wish they did so in Canada, because that paper is one of the nicest
papers one can use with Epson printers for glossy prints and dye inks.

I would agree that when a person is developing an basic understanding of
how the printer works it *may* make sense to try some Epson inks and
papers to start with, to recognize issues that come up so you can
recognize which may be due to a new paper type or ink and which are just
not making best use of the drivers Epson provides.

People also need to recognize that Epson designs the printers, software,
papers and inks as a system, but it hardly means that nothing else
works. There is a multi million dollar industry in third party papers
and inks for a reason, and all that paper and those inks aren't being
used by amateurs, in fact, I would wager more 3rd inks and papers are
used by professional artists and photographers who sell their work than
by people who are just trying to save money.

To the person you are responding to in such a hostile manner I say this:

Some papers and ink combos don't work at all in spite of what the
advertising on the package may imply. SOme require a lot of testing and
new ICC profiles to have them work, and some will work but may never be
as good as others for certain types of applications. To some extent,
you have to accept the experimentation as part of the wonder of the
process, and some of that cost.

However, if the manufacturer or distributor implies a paper will work
with "all" printers, or even all Epson printers, and doesn't provide
profiles for the product, or indicate you need to make your own or buy
some, and instead suggests they will work with Epson's own driver
profiles, and you cannot get reasonable results while you did with Epson
products (indicating your printer probably isn't malfunctioning) then
its time to ask the company to explain why, and to ask for a refund on
the product if they cannot provide a way for it to meet the packaging
statements.

I can tell people who are using Kodak papers that the O.P.'s comments
about his experience with Kodak paper in an Epson is not unique, and
Kodak supplies profiles and suggestions on their website because of
that. If someone cannot get the paper to provide reasonable results
after that, or if Kodak doesn't address the Epson printer model in
particular printer, and particularly when using Epson inks, then asking
for a refund for the paper is appropriate.

Some manufacturers know their papers work best with only certain brands
of printers or ink types, yet sell them as universal. They probably
figure most people will accept the lower quality result or just take the
loss and move on. If you find the price is burdensome and have the
time, ask for a refund.

Lastly, some manufacturers will provide low cost or even free sample
product packages for you to test, offering a few sheets of several types
of paper, so you can determine which work best for you. The ones that
charge a fee sometimes will include a coupon toward your next purchase
to make the sample kit paper free or nearly so if you make another purchase.

I certainly do encourage people to read the instructions and learn more
about their printers and the consumables they have offered to them, but
I also recognize that sometimes the advertising hype doesn't live up to
reasonable expectation, even for a reasonably careful consumer. Also,
not everyone wishes to dedicate their lives to learning to use a
computer peripheral, and just wants to make some prints that look good
from their printer. Certainly using strictly Epson will make that
process the easiest, but working with 3rd party products shouldn't
require a PhD in color management to get a fairly acceptable output result.

Art
 
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