Just a crazy backup thought / discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter GT
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GT

I have a Canon HV20 Camcorder that takes MiniDV tapes. A 1 hour tape
obviously holds 1 hour of video, which imports in RAW format to over 12GB of
'M2T' files. I therefore presume that a 1.5hour tape would hold over 18GB of
data. Is there any software in existence that can turn raw binary, hard disk
data into video format for storage out to tape as this would clearly be a
high density backup medium and (for owners of such devices) would cost zero!

I figure that at just 2:1 compression, it would be possible to store nearly
40GB of files onto a single 1.5hour tape. At 5:1 compression it could manage
around 100GB per tape. The backup process would be mindblowingly slow at 1.5
hours + operating overheads for a backup or restore, but for this amount of
data at no cost, would anyone here consider it?

It would probably be very slow for random access of backed up data, as with
most tape systems - have to refer to the index at the beginning, then 'zoom'
to the right place on the tape and read it back. However, for those who
can't be bothered using 35 CDs and don't have tape backup or a DVD writers
(8 DVDs), its better than nothing!

Thoughts / comments?
 
GT said:
I have a Canon HV20 Camcorder that takes MiniDV tapes. A 1 hour tape
obviously holds 1 hour of video, which imports in RAW format to over 12GB of
'M2T' files. I therefore presume that a 1.5hour tape would hold over 18GB of
data. Is there any software in existence that can turn raw binary, hard disk
data into video format for storage out to tape as this would clearly be a
high density backup medium and (for owners of such devices) would cost zero!

I figure that at just 2:1 compression, it would be possible to store nearly
40GB of files onto a single 1.5hour tape. At 5:1 compression it could manage
around 100GB per tape. The backup process would be mindblowingly slow at 1.5
hours + operating overheads for a backup or restore, but for this amount of
data at no cost, would anyone here consider it?

It would probably be very slow for random access of backed up data, as with
most tape systems - have to refer to the index at the beginning, then 'zoom'
to the right place on the tape and read it back. However, for those who
can't be bothered using 35 CDs and don't have tape backup or a DVD writers
(8 DVDs), its better than nothing!
Click to expand...


yep it's a crazy idea all right.

DVD burners are now going for about $30 and the media is 17cents a disk
 
philo said:
yep it's a crazy idea all right.

DVD burners are now going for about $30 and the media is 17cents a disk
Click to expand...

I would never use it either, but its still a good idea!
 
I would never use it either, but its still a good idea!
Click to expand...


Well I have a few tape drives that I took out of some old servers and did
play with making tape backups...
but it was a bit of a PITA...

Burning DVD's is cheap and easy...and no special software is needed to read
the data.
 
Burning DVD's is cheap and easy...and no special software is needed to
read the data.
Click to expand...

Still too difficult having to burn more than 10 dvds for a full system
backup... let's hope blu ray recorders finally get cheaper.
 
I have a Canon HV20 Camcorder that takes MiniDV tapes. A 1 hour tape
obviously holds 1 hour of video, which imports in RAW format to over 12GB of
'M2T' files. I therefore presume that a 1.5hour tape would hold over 18GB of
data.
Click to expand...

No, the video is stored in some compressed format, like
MJPEG for DV. When you import it as RAW you are
decompressing it. If you have the option not to import it
RAW, don't do so as there is minimal benefit to it, that
would only slightly decrease CPU processing time to decode
while editing or recompressing, but at a great expense of
hard drive space.

Is there any software in existence that can turn raw binary, hard disk
data into video format for storage out to tape as this would clearly be a
high density backup medium and (for owners of such devices) would cost zero!
Click to expand...

No, you can zip or rar something to compress it, and these
are higher compression rates than from raw to MJPEG. IOW
the basic premise is flawed in that the MiniDV tape can't
hold as much data as suspected.

If you really want a tape backup your best best is one made
for computer tape backups.
 
No, the video is stored in some compressed format, like
MJPEG for DV. When you import it as RAW you are
decompressing it. If you have the option not to import it
RAW, don't do so as there is minimal benefit to it, that
would only slightly decrease CPU processing time to decode
while editing or recompressing, but at a great expense of
hard drive space.



No, you can zip or rar something to compress it, and these
are higher compression rates than from raw to MJPEG. IOW
the basic premise is flawed in that the MiniDV tape can't
hold as much data as suspected.

If you really want a tape backup your best best is one made
for computer tape backups.
Click to expand...

Upon reflection, part of my post is wrong. The tape can
hold the capacity but not using DV format for data, it would
have to be a compression format optimized for data
compression which is lossless and optimized for more than
just video, unlike MJPEG. What still remains is that the
tape is not unusual in density, you would still be better
off using a tape drive with a direct computer interface.
 
GT said:
I have a Canon HV20 Camcorder that takes MiniDV tapes. A 1 hour tape
obviously holds 1 hour of video, which imports in RAW format to over 12GB of
'M2T' files. I therefore presume that a 1.5hour tape would hold over 18GB of
data. Is there any software in existence that can turn raw binary, hard disk
data into video format for storage out to tape as this would clearly be a
high density backup medium and (for owners of such devices) would cost zero!

I figure that at just 2:1 compression, it would be possible to store nearly
40GB of files onto a single 1.5hour tape. At 5:1 compression it could manage
around 100GB per tape. The backup process would be mindblowingly slow at 1.5
hours + operating overheads for a backup or restore, but for this amount of
data at no cost, would anyone here consider it?

It would probably be very slow for random access of backed up data, as with
most tape systems - have to refer to the index at the beginning, then 'zoom'
to the right place on the tape and read it back. However, for those who
can't be bothered using 35 CDs and don't have tape backup or a DVD writers
(8 DVDs), its better than nothing!

Thoughts / comments?
Click to expand...

I can only say that it isn't a new idea -- back in the dark ages of
personal computers the idea was to record "vast" amounts of data to your
handy VHS recorder. There must have been a half-dozen companies
producing hardware and software along these lines. One that comes to
mind is ArVid and they was probably one of the last purveyors of such.
It never worked well at all in any of its incarnations.

Even tapes and transports which were made for the job such as DAT and
QIC were slow, expensive, and don't hold enough data to make them useful
for modern backup needs. Even worse, the tapes themselves are fragile
and even the slightest hiccup dooms the contents of the tape.

I'll stick with backing up to portable hard drives and to DVDs, both of
which are cheap and easy and which hold a useful amount of data.
 
Rookie said:
Still too difficult having to burn more than 10 dvds for a full system
backup... let's hope blu ray recorders finally get cheaper.
Click to expand...


True, but to me, as long as I keep all the data backed up...
I feel pretty safe.
Harddrives are so cheap now that I've actually made two clones of my main
system onto two other harddrives.
 
Rookie said:
Still too difficult having to burn more than 10 dvds for a full system
backup... let's hope blu ray recorders finally get cheaper.
Click to expand...

HDDs are VERY cheap for the amount they store. Just get an external drive an
back up to it occasionally. Shut it off when not it use and it's safe.
 
I can only say that it isn't a new idea -- back in the dark ages of
personal computers the idea was to record "vast" amounts of data to
your handy VHS recorder. There must have been a half-dozen companies
producing hardware and software along these lines. One that comes to
mind is ArVid and they was probably one of the last purveyors of such.
It never worked well at all in any of its incarnations.

Even tapes and transports which were made for the job such as DAT and
QIC were slow, expensive, and don't hold enough data to make them
useful for modern backup needs. Even worse, the tapes themselves are
fragile and even the slightest hiccup dooms the contents of the tape.

I'll stick with backing up to portable hard drives and to DVDs, both
of which are cheap and easy and which hold a useful amount of data.
Click to expand...

I have some old data tapes lying around here. The 3M DC2120 tapes say
'120 Mbytes' and the Sony QIC WIDE QW 5122F (F= preformatted?) plastic
tape cartridge holder says '200MB Native' and '420MB Compressed'. Of
course those were the days of 700 MB hard drives.

The tapes were good for full system backups and large data dumps or
restoring the same. They were and still are slow for restoring single
files since they are sequential access, although newer tape formats store
directory information on a chip inside the cartridge making that
information immediately available.

They were good for companies that did overnight backups of their servers.
Tapes were created and swapped for the oldest of a batch of tapes by an
off site storage company in a rotation scheme. New tapes were usually
added every so often and one of the batch retired for permanent storage.

Tapes can be written to faster than most might guess, 3 - 16 MB/Sec.
Some manufacturers claim a 30+ year shelf life.

Has anyone priced tape drives lately? I have. They are four times + the
cost of a decent 300 GB hard drive making them a poor choice for the
average PC user.
 
I can only say that it isn't a new idea -- back in the dark ages of
personal computers the idea was to record "vast" amounts of data to your
handy VHS recorder. There must have been a half-dozen companies
producing hardware and software along these lines. One that comes to
mind is ArVid and they was probably one of the last purveyors of such.
It never worked well at all in any of its incarnations.

Even tapes and transports which were made for the job such as DAT and
QIC were slow, expensive, and don't hold enough data to make them useful
for modern backup needs. Even worse, the tapes themselves are fragile
and even the slightest hiccup dooms the contents of the tape.
Click to expand...

During my time in customer support I remember that backups to DAT tape were a
common cause of grief among our customers. H-P DAT Autochangers...shudder...
 
philo said:
Well I have a few tape drives that I took out of some old servers and did
play with making tape backups...
but it was a bit of a PITA...

Burning DVD's is cheap and easy...and no special software is needed to
read
the data.
Click to expand...

But also offers no compression. Backup software + DVDs would be almost as
good as my tape idea. A DVD can take 4.5GB, so if the data is compressed by
backup software, it could actually 'hold' significantly more.
 
Rookie said:
Still too difficult having to burn more than 10 dvds for a full system
backup... let's hope blu ray recorders finally get cheaper.
Click to expand...

Way more than 10 - I have a 500GB and a 160GB drive. Both are about half
full. I need nearly 60 DVDs!
 
kony said:
No, the video is stored in some compressed format, like
MJPEG for DV. When you import it as RAW you are
decompressing it. If you have the option not to import it
RAW, don't do so as there is minimal benefit to it, that
would only slightly decrease CPU processing time to decode
while editing or recompressing, but at a great expense of
hard drive space.
Click to expand...

That was my bad wording again. I don't import the files as RAW - that was my
Canon EOS format confusing me! They import as M2T files, which are basically
MPG. So the tape capacity is around 12-13GB per hour (same capacity as the
files I import).

I know you replied to your own post here, but I though I would just clarify
my wording for everone.
 
But also offers no compression. Backup software + DVDs would be almost as
good as my tape idea. A DVD can take 4.5GB, so if the data is compressed by
backup software, it could actually 'hold' significantly more.
Click to expand...


Although there is plenty of software out there for compressing data...
DVD's are so cheap I never worry about it.

Besides, if the data is not compressed...it can be retrieved from any
machine
and without the need for any add'l software
 
philo said:
Although there is plenty of software out there for compressing data...
DVD's are so cheap I never worry about it.

Besides, if the data is not compressed...it can be retrieved from any
machine
and without the need for any add'l software
Click to expand...

So long as you know which of the 60 DVDs to look on!
 
Way more than 10 - I have a 500GB and a 160GB drive. Both are about half
full. I need nearly 60 DVDs!
Click to expand...

Backing up is a bit of a nightmare.

I made a disc image when I installed the OS. I made another when I'd
installed the software that I use.

Now I just burn stuff to DVD when I've got enought time and blank DVDs.

It's far from ideal. I'd really like to set up some kind of hd backup
system, and carry on with the DVD stuff too.
 
..
So long as you know which of the 60 DVDs to look on!
Click to expand...


That's why I do backups to other harddrives.

I keep anything that's important on at least two harddrives and two DVD's

Some of it is actually backed up on 4 different HD's
 
Way more than 10 - I have a 500GB and a 160GB drive. Both are about half
full. I need nearly 60 DVDs!
Click to expand...

External 500GB HDD, about $120, or since you aren't using
but half the capacity of the present 500GB, buy a 320GB
external and swap the drives around, though having some
breathing room for data expansion is always nice, the more
the better.
 
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