Issues with external hard drives

[PeteK]

I have two internal EIDE HDs. My BIOS is set to AUTO mode for these, which
I believe defaults to LBA mode (Master is 40GB, Slave 120GB) for large
drives. I just bought another 160GB EIDE drive. All three drives live in
removable disk caddies. The intention of this set-up was to give me a bit of
flexibility, particularly for backing-up my boot drive.

I successfully cloned my 12GB boot partition on the master (40GB) HD to the
External HD. When I swap these drives, the new (160GB) drive boots OK.
However, when I cloned the newly created 12GB partition from the 160GB HD
(in its exerenal USB drive) to the Slave IDE drive, the resulting partition
won't boot (it gets so fat, then just hangs).

Could I be hiting an issue with incompatible LBA modes ?

I'm running windows XP2, using partition magic v7 to clone the drives.

TIA,

Pete K

 

[Peter]

I have two internal EIDE HDs. My BIOS is set to AUTO mode for these,
which

I believe defaults to LBA mode (Master is 40GB, Slave 120GB) for large
drives. I just bought another 160GB EIDE drive. All three drives live in
removable disk caddies.

Where is third caddy hooked up to?

The intention of this set-up was to give me a bit of
flexibility, particularly for backing-up my boot drive.

I successfully cloned my 12GB boot partition on the master (40GB) HD to the
External HD.

Is External HD a fourth hard disk in your setup?

When I swap these drives, the new (160GB) drive boots OK.
However, when I cloned the newly created 12GB partition from the 160GB HD
(in its exerenal USB drive) to the Slave IDE drive, the resulting partition
won't boot (it gets so fat, then just hangs).

Could I be hiting an issue with incompatible LBA modes ?

I'm running windows XP2, using partition magic v7 to clone the drives.

Have fun in experimenting. Maybe MBR does not get transfered, BIOS settings
interfere with your idea of booting of Slave drive, partition magic
malfunctioned or Windows XP did something when all disks were connected and
visible to OS. Keep playing.

 

[Tim Chandler]

Have fun in experimenting. Maybe MBR does not get transfered, BIOS settings
interfere with your idea of booting of Slave drive, partition magic
malfunctioned or Windows XP did something when all disks were connected and
visible to OS. Keep playing.

I can't claim any expertise with this kind of problem, but I do know that,
at least in Win 2K, the recovery console has commands Fixboot and Fixmbr.
Maybe those would be useful to try??

 

[Rod Speed]

I have two internal EIDE HDs. My BIOS is set to AUTO mode for these,
which I believe defaults to LBA mode (Master is 40GB, Slave 120GB)

That isnt an ideal config, basically because the 40G is likely the slowest
drive.

for large drives. I just bought another 160GB EIDE drive. All three
drives live in removable disk caddies. The intention of this set-up was to
give me a bit of flexibility, particularly for backing-up my boot drive.

I successfully cloned my 12GB boot partition on the master (40GB) HD to the
External HD. When I swap these drives, the new (160GB) drive boots OK.

Thats said a bit confusingly, try rewording
it. Not clear what you are swapping.

However, when I cloned the newly created 12GB partition from the 160GB HD (in
its exerenal USB drive) to the Slave IDE drive,
the resulting partition won't boot (it gets so fat, then just hangs).

Could I be hiting an issue with incompatible LBA modes ?

That isnt the problem.

I'm running windows XP2, using partition magic v7 to clone the drives.

One problem with a failure to clone successfully is what you do on
the first boot after the clone has been done. Its important to not have
both the original and the clone visible to XP on the first boot after the
clone has been done. It looks like you wouldnt have had them both
visible due to the way the internal drives have been done tho.

Most likely the problem is that you need to clone more than
just the partition itself to be able to boot successfully with XP.
The boot sequence is surprisingly complex and its likely that
the entrys in the boot.ini no longer refer to the correct partition
on the correct physical drive with where XP resides after the clone.

 

[Jim]

I have two internal EIDE HDs. My BIOS is set to AUTO mode for these, which
I believe defaults to LBA mode (Master is 40GB, Slave 120GB) for large
drives. I just bought another 160GB EIDE drive. All three drives live in
removable disk caddies. The intention of this set-up was to give me a bit of
flexibility, particularly for backing-up my boot drive.

I successfully cloned my 12GB boot partition on the master (40GB) HD to the
External HD.

Am I to assume the "External HD" is an enclosure that has the new 160GB HD??
This reference to the "External HD" has just popped up out of nowhere.

When I swap these drives, the new (160GB) drive boots OK.

Ok, so now that you've cloned the boot partition to the 160GB (using an
external enclosure?), you've removed it from the enclosure and installed is
as the master, and it operates normally?? Good.

However, when I cloned the newly created 12GB partition from the 160GB HD
(in its exerenal USB drive) to the Slave IDE drive, the resulting partition
won't boot (it gets so fat, then just hangs).

Ok, I'm lost again. Now it sounds like the 160GB is back in the external
enclosure. So what's the story here, are you booting the 12GB partition on
the 160GB from the master IDE, or perhaps booting it from the external USB
enclosure? Maybe it's not even germane, but is getting confusing.

So you've cloned from the 160GB HD to old slave HD (120GB), and now it won't
boot from there? That's the question?

First, if I've read this correctly, all this movement using the new 160GB HD
sounds irrelevant. It sounds like you could have simply cloned the boot
partition from the old master to the old slave and had the same problem.
Introduction of the 160GB is only confusing things (again, if I'm reading
this correctly).

In general, Windows does NOT like to boot from anything but the first HD.
So it's no surprise that it would fail to boot. At a minimum, you would
still need boot files on the master HD, which in turn could boot the OS from
the slave HD. In fact, I use BootIt NG to sometimes boot from other than
the first HD, and for this to wok, I have to use a special feature that
logically changes the HD id from hd1 (the second HD) to hd0 (the first HD).
When Windows sees anything but hd0, it will not boot it. So my boot manager
manipulates the HD id so Windows will boot it anyway.

Of course, all this is somewhat speculative since I'm not even sure I
completely understand the config, I'm making a few logical conclusions based
on scant information. But in general, booting the OS from anything but the
first HD can be tricky. You could perhaps update the boot.ini file on the
first HD to include a boot option for the OS on the slave, which is part of
the problem. BUT, this raises another problem. Your OS on the slave is
probably still C:, but the boot partition on the old master is ALSO C:! In
order to make the boot partition on the old master boot the cloned OS on the
slave, the OS partition on the slave needs to be OTHER THAN C:, like D:, E:,
etc. But you can't easily make that change since the registry on that slave
partition is riddled w/ C: references. IOW, it's probably a mess.

The way to correct the problem is use a good boot manager, like BootIt NG.
You can then use *it* to boot any OS partition, on ANY HD, and most
importantly, HIDE other partitions so you can keep the OS on the slave HD
still bootable as C:.

HTH

Jim

 

[Rod Speed]

Am I to assume the "External HD" is an enclosure that has the new
160GB HD?? This reference to the "External HD" has just popped up out
of nowhere.


Ok, so now that you've cloned the boot partition to the 160GB (using
an external enclosure?), you've removed it from the enclosure and
installed is as the master, and it operates normally?? Good.


Ok, I'm lost again. Now it sounds like the 160GB is back in the
external enclosure. So what's the story here, are you booting the
12GB partition on the 160GB from the master IDE, or perhaps booting
it from the external USB enclosure? Maybe it's not even germane, but
is getting confusing.

So you've cloned from the 160GB HD to old slave HD (120GB), and now
it won't boot from there? That's the question?

First, if I've read this correctly, all this movement using the new
160GB HD sounds irrelevant. It sounds like you could have simply
cloned the boot partition from the old master to the old slave and
had the same problem. Introduction of the 160GB is only confusing
things (again, if I'm reading this correctly).

In general, Windows does NOT like to boot from anything but the first HD.

Oh bullshit.

So it's no surprise that it would fail to boot.

More bullshit.

At a minimum, you would still need boot files on the master
HD, which in turn could boot the OS from the slave HD.

More bullshit.

In fact, I use BootIt NG to sometimes boot from other
than the first HD, and for this to wok, I have to use a
special feature that logically changes the HD id from
hd1 (the second HD) to hd0 (the first HD). When
Windows sees anything but hd0, it will not boot it.

Just because you have ****ed up the Win boot detail.

So my boot manager manipulates the
HD id so Windows will boot it anyway.

Thats just a complete kludge.

Of course, all this is somewhat speculative since I'm not even sure I
completely understand the config, I'm making a few logical
conclusions based on scant information. But in general, booting the
OS from anything but the first HD can be tricky. You could perhaps
update the boot.ini file on the first HD to include a boot option for
the OS on the slave, which is part of the problem. BUT, this raises
another problem. Your OS on the slave is probably still C:, but the
boot partition on the old master is ALSO C:! In order to make the
boot partition on the old master boot the cloned OS on the slave, the
OS partition on the slave needs to be OTHER THAN C:, like D:, E:,
etc. But you can't easily make that change since the registry on
that slave partition is riddled w/ C: references. IOW, it's probably
a mess.

You clearly havent got a clue about the Win boot process.

The way to correct the problem is use a good boot manager,
like BootIt NG. You can then use *it* to boot any OS partition,
on ANY HD, and most importantly, HIDE other partitions so
you can keep the OS on the slave HD still bootable as C:.

That's just one way.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

Am I to assume the "External HD" is an enclosure that has the new 160GB HD??

This reference to the "External HD" has just popped up out of nowhere.

"I have *two internal EIDE HDs*"
"I just bought *another 160GB EIDE drive*"
"I successfully cloned my 12GB boot partition on the master (40GB) HD to the
*External HD*".
"However, when I cloned the newly created 12GB partition from the 160GB HD
*(in its external USB drive)*"

How many clues do you need?

Reading is not your forte, is it, Jimmy. Ranting is more your thing.
Lots of ranting. No proofreading, bad quoting etc. etc.
You already start ranting before you have read the entire post and it wasn't
even so big. But, of course, it is now.

Ok, so now that you've cloned the boot partition to the 160GB (using an
external enclosure?),

Wow, you're quick.

you've removed it from the enclosure and installed is
as the master, and it operates normally?? Good.

He must be so happy that he has your seal of approval now.

Ok, I'm lost again.

Already? Again?

Now it sounds like the 160GB is back in the external enclosure.

Yup that's what he said.

So what's the story here, are you booting the 12GB partition on the 160GB
from the master IDE, or perhaps booting it from the external USB enclosure?

Nope, on the slave drive obviously, either connected as slave or swapped to master.

Maybe it's not even germane, but is getting confusing.

Not if you refrain from making stupid assumptions.

So you've cloned from the 160GB HD to old slave HD (120GB), and now it
won't boot from there? That's the question?

Bloody obvious it is.

First, if I've read this correctly, all this movement using the new 160GB HD
sounds irrelevant. It sounds like you could have simply cloned the boot
partition from the old master to the old slave

and had the same problem.

But he didn't. It worked.

Introduction of the 160GB is only confusing things

It answers the resulting question of what you just put above.

(again, if I'm reading this correctly).

But you can't.

In general, Windows does NOT like to boot from anything but the first HD.

Works fine from an installation standpoint.
What it may not like is if you change things around it it doesn't adapt so well
as that it should.

So it's no surprise that it would fail to boot.

Yes it does. He did that on the other drive and that worked fine.
Obviously windows doesn't like what happened to "the other drive"
internal.

At a minimum, you would still need boot files on the master HD, which
in turn could boot the OS from the slave HD.
Nonsense.

In fact, I use BootIt NG to sometimes boot from other than the first HD,

That's because you have no idea how to do it otherwise. We have been over
that already in another thread but obviously you didn't learn from that at all.

and for this to wok, I have to use a special feature that
logically changes the HD id from hd1 (the second HD) to hd0 (the first HD).
When Windows sees anything but hd0, it will not boot it. So my boot manager
manipulates the HD id so Windows will boot it anyway.

Of course, all this is somewhat speculative since I'm not even sure I
completely understand the config, I'm making a few

logical

As if you understand logic.

conclusions based on scant information.

No, you couldn't bother to properly read the post.

But in general, booting the OS from anything but the first HD can be tricky.

That's not what you first said.

You could perhaps update the boot.ini file on the first HD to include
a boot option for the OS on the slave,

which is part of the problem.

Only in your solution.

BUT, this raises another problem.

Your OS on the slave is probably still C:, but
the boot partition on the old master is ALSO C:!

Bingo. Btw, it is the same in reverse.
If that is the problem then the master won't boot propely either anymore.

In order to make the boot partition on the old master boot the cloned OS on the
slave, the OS partition on the slave needs to be OTHER THAN C:, like D:, E:, etc.

Right. That is likely where Windows fails to adapt properly in particular instances.

But you can't easily make that change since the registry on that slave
partition is riddled w/ C: references.

Which is not a problem if you never intend to boot from that drive again (as is).

IOW, it's probably a mess.

Depends on how you intend to use the drives. If you want them both bootable
and all drives visible you may have to intall on one of them from scratch with
the "other" drive visible to the install so that drive letters won't be doubled.

The way to correct the problem is use a good boot manager, like BootIt NG.
You can then use *it* to boot any OS partition, on ANY HD, and most
importantly, HIDE other partitions so you can keep the OS on the slave HD

still bootable as C:.

You can still keep the letter that it has so that the registry has no problems.
Bootable and C: are not connected by the hip.

 

[PeteK]

First of all, let me apologise for a confusing description of my problem,
and thank you all for your suggestions, which I will follow up carefully.
For the record, this is what I did:

(A) Normal operation:
EIDE Master : Disk1 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : empty

(B) Clone disk1 (boot partition only) to disk3:
EIDE Master : Disk1 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : Disk3 (new 160GB EIDE in ext enclosure)
Here, I just cloned the boot partition from Disk1 to Disk3 using
Partition Magic (v8 this time)

(B) Test that disk3 is bootable:
EIDE Master : Disk3 (now has boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : empty
This works just like (A).

(C) Clone disk3 (boot partition only) to disk 2.
EIDE Master : Disk1 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : Disk3 (with boot partition)
I could have gone direct from Disk1 to Disk2, but this way is faster.
Later, I did try the direct approach, with the same result D).

(D) Test that disk2 is bootable (this fails):
EIDE Master : Disk2 (now has boot partition)
EIDE Slave: empty.
Ext USB2 : empty
Boots part-way then hangs (just after the small windows logo is
displayed)

(E) Clone disk1 in ext drive this time (boot partition only) to disk 2.
EIDE Master : Disk3 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : Disk1 (with boot partition)
This also fails when configured as (D).

(F) Test disk2 alone (this fails too):
EIDE Master : Disk2 (now has boot partition)

Some other points:
All drives are housed in removable caddies.
After cloning a boot partition, I always check that the new partition is set
to "Active".
I CAN boot from the original master (disk1) when it is the only disk
present.

I think that the above should answer the questions that were raised in your
posts (for which I am very grateful). I had not considered the boot.ini and
related issues, so I will try the booting from my windows CD and see if I
can get any further using the recovery console.

Many thanks,

Pete K

 

[PeteK]

Just to report back, I tried using the Windows recovery console FIXMBR and
(later) FIXBOOT commands, but the issue is still there. If there was a
problem with the MBR before I cloned the drive, then maybe the cloned image
isn't any good. What is the best way to scrub the whole disk and start from
scratch ? Previously, I did this with partition magic v8 (I deleted all
partitions and then recreate the primary) ?

Thanks,

Pete K

 

[Rod Speed]

First of all, let me apologise for a confusing description of my problem, and
thank you all for your suggestions, which I will follow up carefully. For the
record, this is what I did:

(A) Normal operation:
EIDE Master : Disk1 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : empty

(B) Clone disk1 (boot partition only) to disk3:
EIDE Master : Disk1 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : Disk3 (new 160GB EIDE in ext enclosure)
Here, I just cloned the boot partition from Disk1 to Disk3 using Partition
Magic (v8 this time)

This is likely the problem, both using PM and only cloning
the boot partition and not the entire physical drive.

And it isnt clear if you ever boot XP with the original and
the clone visible to XP during the first boot after the clone
has been done. XP can get VERY confused if you do that.

(B) Test that disk3 is bootable:
EIDE Master : Disk3 (now has boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : empty
This works just like (A).

That may be a fluke in the sense that Disk3 by pure luck
has an MBR on the physical disk, in the first physical
sector of that disk, which is identical to that on Disk 1.
That wont be copied if you just clone the bootable partition.

(C) Clone disk3 (boot partition only) to disk 2.
EIDE Master : Disk1 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : Disk3 (with boot partition)
I could have gone direct from Disk1 to Disk2, but this way is
faster. Later, I did try the direct approach, with the same result D).

(D) Test that disk2 is bootable (this fails):
EIDE Master : Disk2 (now has boot partition)
EIDE Slave: empty.
Ext USB2 : empty
Boots part-way then hangs (just after the small windows logo is displayed)

That may be because you either let XP see both the original and
the clone on the first boot of XP after the clone has been made,
or because Disk2 doesnt have the same MBR as Disk1 and Disk3
since it doesnt get copied in a clone of just the boot partition.

One obvious difference is that disk3 was in the Ext USB2
when its the destination for the clone. See what happens
when disk2 is in the Ext USB2 when doing the clone.

(E) Clone disk1 in ext drive this time (boot partition only) to disk
2. EIDE Master : Disk3 (with boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk 2.
Ext USB2 : Disk1 (with boot partition)
This also fails when configured as (D).

(F) Test disk2 alone (this fails too):
EIDE Master : Disk2 (now has boot partition)

Some other points:
All drives are housed in removable caddies.
After cloning a boot partition, I always check that the new partition is set
to "Active".
I CAN boot from the original master (disk1) when it is the only disk present.

That indicates that you arent getting all you
need onto disk 2 for it to boot for some reason.

I'd try cloning the entire physical drive and see if that makes
any difference, just for a test of what is actually going on.
Not clear if that is practical tho, disk2 may be too small for that.

Certainly try with disk2 in the Ext USB2.

I think that the above should answer the questions that were raised in your
posts (for which I am very grateful). I had not considered the boot.ini and
related issues, so I will try the booting from my windows CD and see if I can
get any further using the recovery console.

Just to report back, I tried using the Windows recovery console FIXMBR and
later) FIXBOOT commands, but the issue is still there.

What happens if you do an install in place with the XP CD to disk 2 ?
That is a check to see that disk 2 is bootable with XP. Its unlikely that
its not, but its a quick and easy check of that unlikely possibility.

If there was a problem with the MBR before I cloned the drive, then maybe the
cloned image isn't any good.

Yes, but a clone of JUST the boot partition wont clone the
physical DRIVE MBR. Its possible that that has some crap
in it like the wrong physical geometry which prevents XP
being booted from that drive or something. Thats the main
reason for trying the install in place.

What is the best way to scrub the whole disk and start from scratch ?

Something like clearhdd from
http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/utilities/clearhdd.htm

Previously, I did this with partition magic v8 (I deleted all partitions and
then recreate the primary) ?

That's not as good as wiping the hard drive completely.
Mainly because it doesnt completely wipe the MBR and
there may even be something a bit strange in the boot
code in the MBR too.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

This is likely the problem, both using PM and only cloning
the boot partition and not the entire physical drive.

And it isnt clear if you ever boot XP with the original and
the clone visible to XP during the first boot after the clone
has been done. XP can get VERY confused if you do that.


That may be a fluke in the sense that Disk3 by pure luck
has an MBR on the physical disk, in the first physical
sector of that disk, which is identical to that on Disk 1.
That wont be copied if you just clone the bootable partition.

How can you clone a partition without adjusting the MBR.
The MBR defines the partition, without MBR no partitions.

That may be because you either let XP see both the original and
the clone on the first boot of XP after the clone has been made,

or because Disk2 doesnt have the same MBR as Disk1 and Disk3
since it doesnt get copied in a clone of just the boot partition.

That's mad.

One obvious difference is that disk3 was in the Ext USB2
when its the destination for the clone. See what happens
when disk2 is in the Ext USB2 when doing the clone.

[snip]

 

[Rod Speed]

How can you clone a partition without adjusting the MBR.
The MBR defines the partition, without MBR no partitions.

Adjusting a partition table entry is an entirely
separate matter to CLONING the full MBR.

That's mad.

Nope. Most obviously with the boot code in it and the geometry detail.

 

[Jim]

Just to report back, I tried using the Windows recovery console FIXMBR and
(later) FIXBOOT commands, but the issue is still there. If there was a
problem with the MBR before I cloned the drive, then maybe the cloned image
isn't any good. What is the best way to scrub the whole disk and start from
scratch ? Previously, I did this with partition magic v8 (I deleted all
partitions and then recreate the primary) ?

One thing that immediately struck me about the cloning of Disk3 to Disk2,
and failing, is that this is the one time you would have had to change the
jumpers (assuming you're not using CS (cable select)), since you moved from
slave to master.

Jim

 

[Jim]

Just to report back, I tried using the Windows recovery console FIXMBR and
(later) FIXBOOT commands, but the issue is still there. If there was a
problem with the MBR before I cloned the drive, then maybe the cloned image
isn't any good. What is the best way to scrub the whole disk and start from
scratch ? Previously, I did this with partition magic v8 (I deleted all
partitions and then recreate the primary) ?

If you want to just start over, just install your HDs as desired and boot
the XP CD. It will eventually bring up the XP partition manager, so you'll
be able to create/delete partitions as necessary for your installation.
It's rather easy actually.

You can use third party tools as well, of course, PM8 will work, I use
BootIt NG myself. But it's not strictly necessary. I can think of a couple
of benefits of using third party partition managers, though. For example,
XP can't create a FAT32 > 32GB (IIRC), so if you chose not to go w/ NTFS,
you'd need a third party partition manager to resize it after installation.
Another difference is that if you choose NTFS, it will default to 512 byte
sectors. Some ppl (including myself) like the larger, more efficient 4k
sectors. To get the 4k sectors, you'd need to install w/ FAT32 using the XP
installer. Now use something like BootIt NG to resize that FAT32 (assuming
you want more than 32GB), then use the BootIt NG resize function to realign
the partition for NTFS, then finally, boot XP and run the convert function
on C: (once completed, whalla, 4k sectors).

But in general, you don't HAVE to use a third party partition manager, it's
just nice to have because it can address some minor issues as I discussed
above.

Jim

 

[PeteK]

In my most recent attempt at cloning, I tried the following config:

EIDE Master : Disk1 (has boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk2
Ext USB2 : <not used>

Although I tried this before, this time I used Norton Ghost v10 to clone the
boot partition. I also ticked the box that said to copy the MBR too. Both
disks are jumpered for Cable-Select, so I don't have to change jumpers, just
swap the caddies. I tried booting with Disk2 in the Slave and Master
positions, with the same result each time: pause part-way through the boot
process. I can move the mouse cursor, and every minute or so, there is a
burst of disk activity that looks like a retied operation.

I am starting to believe that the clone operation is working correctly, but
the drive geometry just isn't right. I think I'll try shrinking the
partition size and see if that works or zapping the drive and reinitialising
from tne windows CD as suggested above.

thanks for your help.

Pete K

 

[Rod Speed]

In my most recent attempt at cloning, I tried the following config:

EIDE Master : Disk1 (has boot partition)
EIDE Slave: Disk2
Ext USB2 : <not used>

Although I tried this before, this time I used Norton Ghost v10 to clone the
boot partition.

I've never been too keen on Ghost 9 or 10, damned buggy.

Try it with True Image.

I also ticked the box that said to copy the MBR too. Both disks are jumpered
for Cable-Select, so I don't
have to change jumpers, just swap the caddies. I tried booting with Disk2 in
the Slave and Master positions, with the same result each time: pause part-way
through the boot process. I can move the mouse cursor, and every minute or
so, there is a burst of disk activity
that looks like a retied operation.

I am starting to believe that the clone operation is working correctly, but
the drive geometry just isn't right.

Maybe, but a real clone of the physical drive works fine.

I think I'll try shrinking the partition size and see if that works or zapping
the drive and reinitialising from tne windows CD as suggested above.

I'd try cloning the physical drive, if that is possible in the sense that the
contents of Disk1 will fit on Disk2, and use True Image that I know works.
And use True Image off its booted Rescue CD too.

If that doesnt work, its possible that the caddys that flout the ATA standard
are preventing a successful clone because what is used to do the clone
isnt checking for errors in the cloning process properly.

 

[PeteK]

I've never been too keen on Ghost 9 or 10, damned buggy.

Try it with True Image.

I'd try cloning the physical drive, if that is possible in the sense that
the
contents of Disk1 will fit on Disk2, and use True Image that I know works.
And use True Image off its booted Rescue CD too.

There is a lot of truth in the above. Now that I have solved my problems, I
*think* I understand what the problems were.

First some comments on Ghost V10: I'm not at all keen, but it was a last
resort, and to its credit it DID help me to identify the problem that has
been bugging me for weeks: corrupt registry in the copy. On the down-side,
however, it was unable to clone or backup the active boot partition
successfully. In desperation, I tried backing up the active boot partition
(instead of cloning it) and then restoring the backup using the recovery
environment on the Ghost CD. After booting from the Ghost CD, Ghost found
the malfunctioning copy of windows on the HD and determined that the
registry was broken on the cloned disk and fixed it up (perhaps with loss of
data). Not wishing to rely upon this, I then restored the backup that I'd
just made, and having done that, the same thing happened: corrupt registry
(which again it fixed). This gave me a working 2nd boot disk. I booted
from this secondary and then cloned the original boot partition to a third
disk. This time the cloning process worked and I was able to boot from the
latest clone.

I don't think that Ghost or Partition magic copies from active boot drives
can be relied upon. In fact, this is why I wanted to clone using 3 disks in
the first place.

Now TrueImage. I've heard lots of good reports about this, but when I tried
an evaluation copy of version 9, I found a number of serious errors. It
really came across as an unfinished, unreliable product. The full-drive
cloning aspect DID appear to work (event though it was supposed to be
disabled in the evaluation copy), but I didn't want to clone the full drive,
just the boot partition. I killed the program after it had cloned 2
partitions out of 5, and after a scary hour I finally managed to get my
original disk to boot again. The bonus was that the part-cloned disk also
booted. I plan to take another look at this pruduct later, when they've had
a chance to iron out the bugs. I did report the bugs to Acronis, but didn't
get any response from them (hence the Ghost purchase).

So, my problems were not LBA-related (I hope that there are several people
shouting "I TOLD YOU SO !" at this point) after all. Nor, were they due to
broken Boot files or MBRs. Nevertheless I've learned a few tricks from the
suggestions I received here, and I am very grateful to all who helped me
out.

Cheers,

Pete K

 

[Timothy Daniels]

[...] Now that I have solved my problems, I *think*
I understand what the problems were.

First some comments on Ghost V10: I'm not at all
keen, but it was a last resort, and to its credit it DID
help me to identify the problem that has been bugging
me for weeks: corrupt registry in the copy. On the
down-side, however, it was unable to clone or backup
the active boot partition successfully. In desperation,
I tried backing up the active boot partition (instead of
cloning it) and then restoring the backup using the recovery
environment on the Ghost CD. After booting from the
Ghost CD, Ghost found the malfunctioning copy of
windows on the HD and determined that the registry
was broken on the cloned disk and fixed it up (perhaps
with loss of data). Not wishing to rely upon this, I then
restored the backup that I'd just made, and having done
that, the same thing happened: corrupt registry (which
again it fixed). This gave me a working 2nd boot disk.
I booted from this secondary and then cloned the original
boot partition to a third disk. This time the cloning process
worked and I was able to boot from the latest clone.

I don't think that Ghost or Partition magic copies from
active boot drives can be relied upon. In fact, this is why
I wanted to clone using 3 disks in the first place.

Now TrueImage. I've heard lots of good reports about this,
but when I tried an evaluation copy of version 9, I found a
number of serious errors. It really came across as an
unfinished, unreliable product. The full-drive cloning aspect
DID appear to work (event though it was supposed to be
disabled in the evaluation copy), but I didn't want to clone
the full drive, just the boot partition. I killed the program
after it had cloned 2 partitions out of 5, and after a scary
hour I finally managed to get my original disk to boot again.
The bonus was that the part-cloned disk also booted. I plan
to take another look at this pruduct later, when they've had
a chance to iron out the bugs. I did report the bugs to
Acronis, but didn't get any response from them (hence
the Ghost purchase).

So, my problems were not LBA-related (I hope that there
are several people shouting "I TOLD YOU SO !" at this
point) after all. Nor, were they due to broken Boot files
or MBRs. Nevertheless I've learned a few tricks from the
suggestions I received here, and I am very grateful to al
l who helped me out.

Two comments:

1) You don't mention that you isolated the newly made
clone before its 1st startup. If you did not, that could
account for the registry changes. It's important that
the new clone does not "see" its "parent" OS during
its 1st startup or it seems to set pointers to files in
the "parent" instead of to the identical files in its own
file hierarchy. Things seem to work fine until the
"parent" OS is removed and the clone suddenly sees
that those files have disappeared. You can start up
the "parent" with the new unvetted clone visible to it,
but you cannot start up the clone with the "parent"
visible to the clone until the clone has had its 1st
startup in isolation. Thereafter, the clone CAN be
started with the "parent" OS visible, and it will see
the "parent" as just another Local Disk with its own
file structure.

2) Give Casper XP a try. It will clone the partition that
it is running from without having to drop down to DOS
and without leaving Windows, it does NOT need
.NET Framework to be installed on the system, and
it will clone a single partition from among many, and
it will put that single partition among many on another
hard drive. You can download a free 30-day trial copy
from www.FSSdev.com/products/casperxp/ .

*TimDaniels*

 

[Rod Speed]

There is a lot of truth in the above. Now that I have solved my
problems, I *think* I understand what the problems were.

First some comments on Ghost V10: I'm not at all keen, but it was a last
resort,

I basically decided to bin it and use TI instead, mainly as a
consequence of having it fail to clone a drive and not being
able to image a system from the booted CD. I prefer to do
that last before doing any work on a system for safety and
Ghost 9 and 10 cant even do that at all. You have to install
it first and thats the last thing you want to do with a
system that has problems.

The same problem arises with cloning, you cant do that from
the booted CD either, and thats a complete pain in the arse
because you end up with one hell of a problem with the drive
letters when you do a clone at the XP level. And Ghost 9
failed to actually clone one of my partitions too, it just aborted.
And took longer to clone a single partition than TI took to clone
the entire physical drive too.

and to its credit it DID help me to identify the problem that has been bugging
me for weeks: corrupt registry in the copy. On
the down-side, however, it was unable to clone or backup the active boot
partition successfully. In desperation, I tried backing up the active boot
partition (instead of cloning it) and then restoring the backup using the
recovery environment on the Ghost CD. After booting from the Ghost CD, Ghost
found the malfunctioning copy of windows on the HD and determined that the
registry was broken on the cloned disk and fixed it up (perhaps with loss of
data).
Urk.

Not wishing to rely upon this, I then restored the backup that I'd just made,
and having done that, the same thing happened: corrupt registry (which again
it fixed). This gave me a working 2nd boot disk. I booted from this
secondary and then cloned the original boot partition to a third disk. This
time the cloning process worked and I was able to boot from the latest clone.

I don't think that Ghost or Partition magic copies from active boot drives can
be relied upon.

Yeah, I've never been at all keen on that approach, I always
clone from the booted CD and Ghost 9 and 10 cant even do
that from the booted CD. Gross design deficiency in my opinion.

You can do it with the Ghost 2003 thats included on the distribution
CD but thats got its own problems, you have to be very careful
about what XP can see on the first boot of XP after the clone has
been made and Ghost 2003 is a complete dog for images on a
lan drive if the nic isnt natively supported.

In fact, this is why I wanted to clone using 3 disks in the first place.

Now TrueImage. I've heard lots of good reports about this, but when
I tried an evaluation copy of version 9, I found a number of serious errors.

Like what ?

It really came across as an unfinished, unreliable product.

No reason why you cant use TI 8 while the blemishes are sorted out.

The only real quirk with TI 9 that I have seen is that it has a
problem writing the rescue CD when Roxio EMC 8 is installed.
With TI8 you just had to stop Roxio DragtoDisk from running.
With TI9 I had to actually uninstall Roxio EMC 8. Havent looked
at other workarounds closely tho, I assumed that Acronis will
fix that and chose to do what ensure it works. You dont create
rescue CDs often enough to matter.

The full-drive cloning aspect DID appear to work (event though it was supposed
to be disabled in the evaluation copy),

Thats a bit unclear. The one I tried claimed that it could be used
for 15 days and wasnt limited at all. Turns out that it cant create
an image from the rescue CD, thats definitely disabled. Maybe
they mean that the installed copy isnt disabled, didnt bother
with that because I needed to do that from the rescue CD so
I just used a TI8 CD instead. The TI9 rescue CD can certainly
do a restore and runs fine on a dinosaur Compaq Prosignia 340
that some builds of TI8 have a problem with, basically the graphic
parts of the screen are unreadable. Just a cosmetic problem tho,
if you know what the screen should be, it still works fine.

but I didn't want to clone the full drive, just the boot partition.

Sure, but one obvious approach is to clone the physical drive
and delete the partitions you dont want after doing that. Or do
it as a two step process, create an image file and restore that.

I killed the program after it had cloned 2 partitions out of 5, and after a
scary hour I finally managed to get my original disk to boot again. The bonus
was that the part-cloned disk also booted. I plan to take another look at
this pruduct later, when they've had a chance to iron out the bugs. I did
report the bugs to Acronis, but didn't get any response
from them (hence the Ghost purchase).

So, my problems were not LBA-related (I hope that there are several people
shouting "I TOLD YOU SO !" at this point) after all. Nor, were they due to
broken Boot files or MBRs. Nevertheless I've learned a few tricks from the
suggestions I received here, and I am very grateful to all who helped me out.

Thanks for the feedback, too rare IMO.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Thanks for the feedback, too rare IMO.

I agree. Feedback on problems solved is a
major contribution to the value of newsgroups.

*TimDaniels*