Is Vista crippled by its own HD content protection?

[EU XP user]

Some well respected sources like IDG are seriously questioning Vista's HD and premium
content copy protection, claiming is disempowers legitimate users from watching
their legally obtained HD content:

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/id;1965504867;fp;2;fpid;2
Quote:
"PC users around the globe may find driver software is stopped from working by Vista
if it detects unauthorized content access. Peter Guttman, a security engineering
researcher at New Zealand's university of Auckland, has written A Cost Analysis of
Windows Vista Content Protection. He reckons Vista is trying to achieve the
impossible by protecting access to premium content. Users will find their PCs'
compromised by the persistent and continuous content access checks carried out by
Vista."

Full text:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
" A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection"

Quote:
"Executive Summary

Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to
provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data
from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs
considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical
support overhead, and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not
only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the
protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever
come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for
example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document
analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral
damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry.

Please read the full text at
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
before posting a reply - thanks.

 

[Robert Moir]

This has already been amply dealt with if you'd just use the simple
search features in this newsgroup. With all repect to Peter Guttman
who holds a Ph.D in computer science, the article is deliberately
misleading. Check out this excellent responce by Paul Smith:
http://www.dasmirnov.net/blog/2006/12/31/windows_vista_drm_nonsense

Without wanting to suggest silly things like 'experts can never be wrong' or
anything like that, Peter Gutmann is more than just another random Ph.D;
he's a respected specialist in areas pertinent to the discussion, with
practical experience of working on some pretty important projects.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gutmann)

I wouldn't blindly accept anything someone says just because of their
previous reputation or anything like that, and I'm not suggesting you do so
either, but I would definately suggest that his opinion cannot be dismissed
with just a few "with all respect" comments. There has definately been a lot
of hyperbole on both sides of the 'arguement' here, but I personally believe
there is a case here to answer.

 

[EU XP user]

Thank you for the link to
http://www.dasmirnov.net/blog/2006/12/31/windows_vista_drm_nonsense

I liked his final point:
"So what we need to do is pressure the film industry, not Microsoft, and make sure
they don't roll out this level of copy protection and in my opinion give up the whole
DRM effort entirely."

I guess the movie industry is not about to release premium HD content without any
DRM - it would be an unrestricted licence to copy-as-you-please.

 

[EU XP user]

Without wanting to suggest silly things like 'experts can never be wrong' or
anything like that, Peter Gutmann is more than just another random Ph.D; he's a
respected specialist in areas pertinent to the discussion, with practical
experience of working on some pretty important projects.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gutmann)

I wouldn't blindly accept anything someone says just because of their previous
reputation or anything like that, and I'm not suggesting you do so either, but I
would definately suggest that his opinion cannot be dismissed with just a few "with
all respect" comments. There has definately been a lot of hyperbole on both sides
of the 'arguement' here, but I personally believe there is a case here to answer.

There is a case to answer indeed.

Peter Guttman made several pertinent observations, all of which are just being
ignored bij MSFT.

The scope of "trustworthy computing" goes way beyond DRM for premium HD movies.

 

[Peter M]

Good Lord, how did people get so stupid? DRM was nothing to do with MS. MS
putting in DRM is so legitimate users can display DRM protected content.
It's the sellers of said protected content ie. RIAA/MPAA calling the shots.
If MS didn't included it, they could get sued like everyone else. Note also,
linux nor apple can display this content unless the user installs whatever
cracks or hacks that get around it. So go ahead, use linux and you'll use
whatever crack/hack the 'nix community comes up with and brag how you don't
use the evil empire while blithly brushing away your being a pirate. lol

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> "Peter M"

Good Lord, how did people get so stupid? DRM was nothing to do with MS. MS
putting in DRM is so legitimate users can display DRM protected content.
It's the sellers of said protected content ie. RIAA/MPAA calling the shots.
If MS didn't included it, they could get sued like everyone else. Note also,
linux nor apple can display this content unless the user installs whatever
cracks or hacks that get around it. So go ahead, use linux and you'll use
whatever crack/hack the 'nix community comes up with and brag how you don't
use the evil empire while blithly brushing away your being a pirate. lol

No, MS wouldn't get sued, the content simply wouldn't play.

What do you think would happen if all the major vendors simply said no?
RIAA/MPAA doesn't have some magical right to code within your computer
to let their content play, it would simply force them to offer content
in a format users can play, or not, their choice.

Microsoft is choosing to add support.

Long term, it makes sense, the next step will be to lock down on what
hardware can be used in the name of enforcing DRM. Unsigned drivers
will become a thing of the past.

After that, it's time for the motherboard and BIOS to get DRM built in,
and only run signed code to ensure there is no violations ground up.

If those BIOSes happen to only boot into signed bootloaders, well, so
much the more secure we all are, at least until you decide you want to
run something other then Microsoft software.

In other words, Microsoft is looking at Apple and copying their approach
to hardware, oddly enough, at the same time as Apple is opening up.

Amazing how the grass can be greener on both sides at once, huh?

(And myself, I flat out refuse to let Linux on any machine I control,
and Apple is on that list too -- I'm a Microsoft user, but perhaps a
cynical one)

 

[MICHAEL]

Good Lord, how did people get so stupid?

Good question- let's start with how it inflicted you so severly.

DRM was nothing to do with MS.

Bullshit. Those dinosaurs at the music and movie industry
need Microsoft and computers a hell of lot more than Microsoft
needs them. Microsoft got on it's knees like some used whore,
and now they expect everyone else to just bend over.

Go ahead, grab our ankles.

Carry on.


-Michael

 

[pjp]

Screw DRM. MS does not have to have any DRM logic in their software at all.
No one's forcing the movie industry to relese DVD's etc. MS and DRM is
simply their attempt to lock up distribution.

Same sad state as music. Never have I heard any argument back to the music
industry that no-one forced them to move from vinyl to cd's. They did it
solely because they saw short term profit. They should be told if they don't
like the fact I can make a perfect copy of a cd and give it to a friend then
don't sell cd's, sell vinyl or create your own device to control the
content. Same for movies is my frame of mind.

What I find really funny is the expense they go thru to try and stop
copying. The few DVD's I can't readily rip I simply play on regular DVD and
record on pc. Doesn't bother me the slight guality loss any more than it did
with vinyl to my reel-to-reel/cassette/stereo vcr.

Vista will not be on any pc I own in foreseeable future. Blimy, I only have
XP on one of six pc's I own now solely because of the activation etc. greed.
And Note - it's a 98SE pc I do most of my "ripping/copying" with.

 

[Robert Moir]

[reposted]

Those dinosaurs at the music and movie industry
need Microsoft and computers a hell of lot more than Microsoft
needs them. Microsoft got on it's knees like some used #####
and now they expect everyone else to just bend over.

While the content providers could not do this without the co-operation of
the OS providers, this isn't just a Microsoft problem (Apple do DRM too and
always have done, Linux advocates are seeing their desktops potentially
either containing proprietary DRM code or unable to play content).

Your over-simplistic comments do the subject as much of a dis-service as the
comments you were replying to.

 

[Gerry Hickman]

Hi,

It's the sellers of said protected content ie. RIAA/MPAA
calling the shots.

I don't agree. Microsoft CHOSE to get in bed with RIAA and Hollywood
studios because of lucrative future partnership deals that they can
jointly cash in on and split the profits. They also have the same ethos
when it comes to "intellectual property", so they have to support each
other's bogus claims of ownership over things that were simply stolen
from artists and independent developers who could not afford the same
lawyers as the big corporations.

Apple didn't buy into it completely, the DRM in iPod is more like Pseudo
DRM and that's why it was so popular.

I realize we can't change the tide of these big corporations, but I hope
those who impose the toughest DRM will lose the most money. I think it's
already happened to a point with iPod, which crushed Microsoft's
original attempts at media protection strategy.

There's plenty money for everyone, but DRM is not the way to get it.

 

[MICHAEL]

[reposted]

Those dinosaurs at the music and movie industry
need Microsoft and computers a hell of lot more than Microsoft
needs them. Microsoft got on it's knees like some used #####
and now they expect everyone else to just bend over.

While the content providers could not do this without the co-operation of
the OS providers, this isn't just a Microsoft problem (Apple do DRM too and
always have done, Linux advocates are seeing their desktops potentially
either containing proprietary DRM code or unable to play content).

Your over-simplistic comments do the subject as much of a dis-service as the
comments you were replying to.

Your lame comment is just another; "well, everyone else does it".

I reckon, that makes it all good.


-Michael

 

[Nina DiBoy]

Some well respected sources like IDG are seriously questioning Vista's
HD and premium
content copy protection, claiming is disempowers legitimate users from
watching
their legally obtained HD content:

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/id;1965504867;fp;2;fpid;2
Quote:
"PC users around the globe may find driver software is stopped from
working by Vista if it detects unauthorized content access. Peter
Guttman, a security engineering researcher at New Zealand's university
of Auckland, has written A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content
Protection. He reckons Vista is trying to achieve the impossible by
protecting access to premium content. Users will find their PCs'
compromised by the persistent and continuous content access checks
carried out by Vista."

Full text:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
" A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection"

Quote:
"Executive Summary

Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
order to
provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD
data
from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs
considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability,
technical
support overhead, and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not
only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the
protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will
ever
come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista
(for
example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This
document
analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the
collateral
damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry.

Please read the full text at
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
before posting a reply - thanks.

Of course it is. OTOH, other media centre systems are not.

http://www.mythpvr.com/mythtv/mythdora/install/howto.html

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

 

[Robert Moir]

Your lame comment is just another; "well, everyone else does it".

I reckon, that makes it all good.

I reckon you ought to try opening your eyes while you read.

 

[Nina DiBoy]

Good Lord, how did people get so stupid? DRM was nothing to do with MS.
MS putting in DRM is so legitimate users can display DRM protected
content. It's the sellers of said protected content ie. RIAA/MPAA
calling the shots. If MS didn't included it, they could get sued like
everyone else. Note also, linux nor apple can display this content
unless the user installs whatever cracks or hacks that get around it. So
go ahead, use linux and you'll use whatever crack/hack the 'nix
community comes up with and brag how you don't use the evil empire while
blithly brushing away your being a pirate. lol

I use mythtv on fedora core and have not had to hack anything to use my
linux media centre. I don't think you know what you're on about.

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

 

[Dale]

Can you use MythTV with high end digital video connections? I can't
remember the name or acronym for what I am referring to but I think it is an
Intel standard.

Dale

 

[Nina DiBoy]

Can you use MythTV with high end digital video connections? I can't
remember the name or acronym for what I am referring to but I think it
is an Intel standard.

Dale

Hi Dale, you mean like s-video or dvi?

I use mythtv on fedora core and have not had to hack anything to use
my linux media centre. I don't think you know what you're on about.

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

 

[Dale]

I was thinking of HDMI. It's hell getting old; when I posted originally, I
couldn't even come close enough to remembering HDMI to even google it but
then, for this post, it came right to my mind. LOL.

And now that I have googled HDMI, I think I know the answer anyway. Why
would I want HDMI on MythTV? The reason for going to MythTV is to get away
from DRM but HDMI includes DRM. It's not specifically that I am against
DRM - if it was an open standard and worked I'd be ok with it. But I don't
want intentionally fuzzied TV or audio.

So, I guess if MythTV will work with DVI then I should be doing good. Does
it work with DVI?

It's probably a moot question anyway; my current setup is Dish Network's
S-Video out to S-Video in on a NTSC TV so anything has to be as good as
that. I even emailed Dish Network asking when they were going to have a USB
interface to a Windows PC. They said never. I'm waiting to buy an LCD TV
with HDTV until I have a suitable means of controlling it. It is becoming
clear that, as much as I like Vista for the desktop, it is not the tool for
a HTPC.

Wow. This topic is sure an alphabet soup, IMO. LOL.

TIA,

D

Can you use MythTV with high end digital video connections? I can't
remember the name or acronym for what I am referring to but I think it is
an Intel standard.

Dale

Hi Dale, you mean like s-video or dvi?

 

[Nina DiBoy]

I was thinking of HDMI. It's hell getting old; when I posted
originally, I couldn't even come close enough to remembering HDMI to
even google it but then, for this post, it came right to my mind. LOL.

And now that I have googled HDMI, I think I know the answer anyway. Why
would I want HDMI on MythTV? The reason for going to MythTV is to get
away from DRM but HDMI includes DRM. It's not specifically that I am
against DRM - if it was an open standard and worked I'd be ok with it.
But I don't want intentionally fuzzied TV or audio.

So, I guess if MythTV will work with DVI then I should be doing good.
Does it work with DVI?

It's probably a moot question anyway; my current setup is Dish Network's
S-Video out to S-Video in on a NTSC TV so anything has to be as good as
that. I even emailed Dish Network asking when they were going to have a
USB interface to a Windows PC. They said never. I'm waiting to buy an
LCD TV with HDTV until I have a suitable means of controlling it. It is
becoming clear that, as much as I like Vista for the desktop, it is not
the tool for a HTPC.

Wow. This topic is sure an alphabet soup, IMO. LOL.

TIA,

D

Hi Dale.

http://www.mythpvr.com/mythtv/hdtv/connect.html

This explains how to hook up your mythtv media centre to an HD TV.

It will work over DVI, but you can also use a HDMI connector.

This is still an up and coming thing for us, as all of our TVs in the
house are still analogue tubes, LOL. An HD LCD TV is what we would
really like, but the prices just aren't feasible for us yet since we
have a family to support. Also, we as a family spend much more time in
front of our computers for recreation than the TV, so that is where we
spend most of our money.

Our setup now is on the standard line in inputs (please don't laugh too
hard, LOL).

Best of luck!

Nina

Hi Dale, you mean like s-video or dvi?




--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

 

[Gerry Hickman]

There's plenty money for everyone, but DRM is not the way to get it.

Amazing, one week after I posted this, Bill Gates said the same thing!

Great minds??

 

[Dale]

Where?

Amazing, one week after I posted this, Bill Gates said the same thing!

Great minds??