Is Blue-Ray and HD DVD Storage Destined To Failure?

[John Slade]

I was just salivating over the specifications of Blue-Ray and HD
DVD disks. It would make backing up and storing information so much
easier for me. As it stands the best option for me now is single layer
DVDs. They hold a lot and are cheap. That brings me to an observation.
The next level of storage is the Dual Layer DVD and it seem to be pretty
much a failure as a storage medium. Prices for a single DL DVD is about
$1.50. That's for a good quality disk, cheap unreliable disks can be had
for about $1.25. Even at these low prices, Dual Layer seems to be
somewhat of a failure for storing data. I don't see many people backing
up to DL they back up to SL DVDs.

That being said, if people won't pay that much for DL DVDs I don't
see how Blue-Ray and HD DVD can ever be a replacement for current DVDs.
At $10 per single layer disk, very few people will want to upgrade to
Blue-Ray or HD DVD storage. For DL, HD DVD and Blue-Ray storage to be
successful, the disks need to come down below $1. Possibly around fifty
cents per disks to be able to replace current disks. Just want to know
if anyone has any opinions on this.

Cuss and discuss,

John

 

[Rod Speed]

I was just salivating over the specifications of Blue-Ray and HD DVD disks. It would make backing
up and storing information so much easier for me. As it stands the best option for me now is
single layer DVDs. They hold a lot and are cheap.

Many use hard drives for backup now and just use DVDs for archival.

That brings me to an observation. The next level of storage is the Dual Layer DVD and it seem to
be pretty much a failure as a storage medium.

Yes, its prime advantage is 1:1 copys of manufactured DVDs.

Prices for a single DL DVD is about $1.50. That's for a good quality disk, cheap unreliable disks
can be had for about $1.25. Even at these low prices, Dual Layer seems to be somewhat of a failure
for storing data.

Yes, its prime advantage is 1:1 copys of manufactured DVDs.

I don't see many people backing up to DL they back up to SL DVDs.

Yes, because while ever you are writing more than one DVD, it makes
sense to use the cheapest media unless there isnt much in it.

That being said, if people won't pay that much for DL DVDs I don't see how Blue-Ray and HD DVD can
ever be a replacement for current DVDs.

Its not the sticker price that matters, its the cost per GB etc.

At $10 per single layer disk,

You cant use that price, its not mature technology yet.

very few people will want to upgrade to Blue-Ray or HD DVD storage.

Remains to be seen what the $/GB ends up at.

For DL, HD DVD and Blue-Ray storage to be successful, the disks need to come down below $1.

Nope, just to about the same $/GB as SL DVDs.

Possibly around fifty cents per disks to be able to replace current disks.

You cant ignore the only number that matters, $/GB.

Just want to know if anyone has any opinions on this.

Corse some have.

Cuss and discuss,

Bugger off.

 

[John Slade]

Many use hard drives for backup now and just use DVDs for archival.


Yes, its prime advantage is 1:1 copys of manufactured DVDs.


Yes, its prime advantage is 1:1 copys of manufactured DVDs.


Yes, because while ever you are writing more than one DVD, it makes
sense to use the cheapest media unless there isnt much in it.


Its not the sticker price that matters, its the cost per GB etc.


You cant use that price, its not mature technology yet.


Remains to be seen what the $/GB ends up at.


Nope, just to about the same $/GB as SL DVDs.


You cant ignore the only number that matters, $/GB.


Corse some have.


Bugger off.

I guess every newsgroup has one... Plonk!

That is a jackass who is snide and thinks they know everything.
These people tend to be boring and go into my killfile when I first hear
from them.

John

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=]

I guess every newsgroup has one... Plonk!

Yep! Rob (Corncob) Speed is our village idiot. We love him and try to feed
him regularly.

That is a jackass who is snide and thinks they know everything.
These people tend to be boring and go into my killfile when I first
hear from them.

I wouldn't be too hasty to put Rod in the killfile so soon as he has some
entertainment value.

As for your question about using any DVD format for backups I would suggest
you simply use removable or external HDs for maximum reliability.





Rita

 

[John Slade]

Yep! Rob (Corncob) Speed is our village idiot. We love him and try to
feed
him regularly.

I frequent the newsgroups ba.broadcasting and comp.sys.mac.advocacy.
There are quite a few in ba.broadcasting but the main one is John
Higdon. In comp.sys.mac.advocacy we have a person called Snit. Snit is
totally clueless but acts like he/she knows everything.

I wouldn't be too hasty to put Rod in the killfile so soon as he has some
entertainment value.

Yea they tend to be funny. I find that the funny part is they don't
know how clueless they are.

As for your question about using any DVD format for backups I would suggest
you simply use removable or external HDs for maximum reliability.

Oh yea that's the best solution for HD backup. Another HD cloned or
uses to store multiple backups is the fastest and most reliable solution
.. However I use my DVDs to archive stuff I know I want to last a long time.

John

 

[Arno Wagner]

I was just salivating over the specifications of Blue-Ray and HD
DVD disks. It would make backing up and storing information so much
easier for me. As it stands the best option for me now is single layer
DVDs. They hold a lot and are cheap. That brings me to an observation.
The next level of storage is the Dual Layer DVD and it seem to be pretty
much a failure as a storage medium. Prices for a single DL DVD is about
$1.50. That's for a good quality disk, cheap unreliable disks can be had
for about $1.25. Even at these low prices, Dual Layer seems to be
somewhat of a failure for storing data. I don't see many people backing
up to DL they back up to SL DVDs.

Sorry, but DVD, Blue-ray and HD-DVD are all cheap, unreliable
mass market products. Use them for backup only if you do not
really care about your data.

That being said, if people won't pay that much for DL DVDs I don't
see how Blue-Ray and HD DVD can ever be a replacement for current DVDs.
At $10 per single layer disk, very few people will want to upgrade to
Blue-Ray or HD DVD storage. For DL, HD DVD and Blue-Ray storage to be
successful, the disks need to come down below $1. Possibly around fifty
cents per disks to be able to replace current disks. Just want to know
if anyone has any opinions on this.

Cuss and discuss,

Forget them. They are not made for backups or reliable storage.
Your options for that are HDDs, MODs (if low volume, very high
reliablility is needed), DVD-RAM (medium volume, medium reliability)
and archival tape. All the other stuff just gives you a false sense of
security.

Arno

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=]

Oh yea that's the best solution for HD backup. Another HD cloned or
uses to store multiple backups is the fastest and most reliable
solution . However I use my DVDs to archive stuff I know I want to
last a long time.

I use HDs for backing up and archiving everything. For me, using SCSI U320
Seagate Cheetah drives in hot-swap trays is a real joy to use. I have and
almost endless supply of large capacity SCSI drives so this strategy is not
a problem for me. If you're on a tight budget you can squeak by using
inexpensive 500GB SATA drives or God forbid these somewhat usable USB
external drives. I would never use DVD. I abandoned using AIT tape a long
time ago in favor of SCSI drives due to reliability issues.







Rita

 

[chrisv]

I guess every newsgroup has one... Plonk!

Beware the nym-shifted " a lot of good that will do you" response.

 

[zappo]

I guess every newsgroup has one...

Yep, there are fools like you in every single one.

Lot more than one, actually...

Plonk!

Fat lot of good that will do you, plonker.

That is a jackass who is snide and thinks they know everything.

Then there's fools like you that know nothing at all.

These people tend to be boring and go into my killfile when I first hear from them.

Fat lot of good that will do you, plonker.

 

[timeOday]

I was just salivating over the specifications of Blue-Ray and HD
DVD disks. It would make backing up and storing information so much
easier for me. As it stands the best option for me now is single layer
DVDs. They hold a lot and are cheap. That brings me to an observation.
The next level of storage is the Dual Layer DVD and it seem to be pretty
much a failure as a storage medium. Prices for a single DL DVD is about
$1.50. That's for a good quality disk, cheap unreliable disks can be had
for about $1.25. Even at these low prices, Dual Layer seems to be
somewhat of a failure for storing data. I don't see many people backing
up to DL they back up to SL DVDs.

That being said, if people won't pay that much for DL DVDs I don't
see how Blue-Ray and HD DVD can ever be a replacement for current DVDs.
At $10 per single layer disk, very few people will want to upgrade to
Blue-Ray or HD DVD storage. For DL, HD DVD and Blue-Ray storage to be
successful, the disks need to come down below $1. Possibly around fifty
cents per disks to be able to replace current disks. Just want to know
if anyone has any opinions on this.

Cuss and discuss,

John

My trust of optical media is pretty low. Better than floppies, but not
enough better. I have been bit by compatibility problems too many times
- drives can't read each others' discs.

 

[John Slade]

Beware the nym-shifted " a lot of good that will do you" response.

Yea the one in here "rob" or whatever his name is, is a rare loon.
Hardly any of these kooks actually tell you they're responding under
another name. This guy must be really pathetic trying to get someone to
pay attention to him when they don't want to. I just ignore his posts
and not respond. The key to these loons is just ignore them, don't
respond. Don't get drawn into their game. They live for the sake of
causing arguments. I actually psychiatrists could classify these people
as having a new type of mental disorder.

John

 

[John Slade]

Sorry, but DVD, Blue-ray and HD-DVD are all cheap, unreliable
mass market products. Use them for backup only if you do not
really care about your data.

You may think that but they are really reliable. If you buy the
proper quality and take proper care of CDs and DVDs, they will last
decades. If you buy cheap junk, they will develop errors. DVDs are much
less apt to get errors than CDs. A lot of people store their DVDs and
CDs in sleeves rather than cases. They can get tiny scratches that make
them hard to read. It's also good to keep them at a constant temp.

Forget them. They are not made for backups or reliable storage.
Your options for that are HDDs, MODs (if low volume, very high
reliablility is needed), DVD-RAM (medium volume, medium reliability)
and archival tape. All the other stuff just gives you a false sense of
security.

I've uses all those you name to success. Reliability also depends
on the user and how they use the media. I've used CDs to store data and
it's readable eight years later.

John

 

[John Slade]

My trust of optical media is pretty low. Better than floppies, but not
enough better. I have been bit by compatibility problems too many times
- drives can't read each others' discs.

Better than floppies? Heh. I think you're dating yourself with that
one. I backed up to floppies once when HDs first came out. It was not fun.

I've run into those compatibility problems too. But, they were few
and far between.

John

 

[Jim P Sharma]

Yea the one in here "rob" or whatever his name is, is a rare loon.
Hardly any of these kooks actually tell you they're responding under
another name. This guy must be really pathetic trying to get someone
to pay attention to him when they don't want to. I just ignore his
posts and not respond. The key to these loons is just ignore them,
don't respond. Don't get drawn into their game. They live for the
sake of causing arguments. I actually psychiatrists could classify
these people as having a new type of mental disorder.

You're the silly little ****wit child playing juvenile games,
sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and
chanting 'nyah, nyah, cant hear ya', ****wit child.

 

[bealoid]

I've used CDs to store data
and it's readable eight years later.

.. . . but eight years is, really, not very long.

I take your point about buying proper media, and cases, and storing them
properly. But, even doing all that, some types of media are more reliable
than others, and dvd is at the lower end.

 

[Arno Wagner]

You may think that but they are really reliable. If you buy the
proper quality and take proper care of CDs and DVDs, they will last
decades.

Yea, if you have the additional knowledge to select the right
media/drive combination and if you get lucky (or test a few
decades), they will be reliable.... Sorry, but I call that
unreliable.

If you buy cheap junk, they will develop errors. DVDs are much
less apt to get errors than CDs. A lot of people store their DVDs and
CDs in sleeves rather than cases. They can get tiny scratches that make
them hard to read. It's also good to keep them at a constant temp.

And some other black magiv. No. A medium is reliable if you can use
it without any special knowledge and then it is reliable. Not if
you have to do your own technology study first.

I've uses all those you name to success. Reliability also depends
on the user and how they use the media. I've used CDs to store data and
it's readable eight years later.

I have had ones that verified fine and were gone 1 week later.
I have had ones readable after years. The point to reliability is
not that some samples last long, but that all do.

Arno

 

[Eric Gisin]

Apparently BD-RE (blu-ray rewritable) has similar defect management to DVD-RAM.
That means written data can be verified, and rewritten to spare sectors on error.
A $10 25GB BD-RE would be comparable to hard disk, but cheaper than DVD-RAM 4.5GB.

Anyone know how well the built-in UDF 2.5 driver in Vista works for DVD and BD writing?

 

[John Slade]

. . . but eight years is, really, not very long.

I know. I have CDs that are close to 16 years old and they play fine.
Others have had tiny bits of the top surface go missing. However they still
play ok.

I take your point about buying proper media, and cases, and storing them
properly. But, even doing all that, some types of media are more reliable
than others, and dvd is at the lower end.

Yea they are at the low end. I can't wait until holographic storage
becomes widely available. Then we'll have speed, capacity and reliability. I
just hope we get a good price as well.

John

 

[John Slade]

Yea, if you have the additional knowledge to select the right
media/drive combination and if you get lucky (or test a few
decades), they will be reliable.... Sorry, but I call that
unreliable.


And some other black magiv. No. A medium is reliable if you can use
it without any special knowledge and then it is reliable. Not if
you have to do your own technology study first.

You can buy any format of media and get bad ones. Even MOD media. If it
can be made, there is someone out there who will cut corners and sell cheap
shit.

I have had ones that verified fine and were gone 1 week later.
I have had ones readable after years. The point to reliability is
not that some samples last long, but that all do.

Yea and you can get a MOD disk and treat it like shit and it will
fail.

John

 

[Arno Wagner]

You can buy any format of media and get bad ones. Even MOD media. If it
can be made, there is someone out there who will cut corners and sell cheap
shit.

Difficult with MODs, since they are ISO standardized and have to pass
pretty strict tests. Sure, you could make non-ISO MOD media, but
likely would run into legal troubles. Nobody has ever tried this
AFAIK. For example, MODS have to be 100% surface certified. You can
read there manufacturer defect list. The drives have to perform a
verify with stricter margins and reallocate or fail the write if the
sector is not written fine (unless the user has turned the verify
off explicitely by flipping a dip-switch. Bad idea.).

So, no, I own about 50 MOD media that have been in use for something like
8 years. I have not lost a single byte and I have had to clean and
reformat two of them (they were still fully readable).

Yea and you can get a MOD disk and treat it like shit and it will
fail.

I have tried that. It did fail eventually, but note the failure mode:
It failed on additional writes, while it still did read fine. After
cleaning and reformatting, it was back to the original manufacturer's
defect list.

Arno