Industry conversion to 64Bit and WOW64

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HMS Beagle

Niether Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel are coming clean out to the public
about what the conversion to 64bit architecture really entails for
backward compatibility and performance degredation of existing
applications.

Backward compatibility has been the bane of CPU designers for the last
20 years. In order to get clunky CISC chips to run at 1.0 GHz and
higher speeds, they have had to re-design the core pipeline of the CPU
as a RISC core, because RISC cores are much simpler than CISC cores,
and therefore, can run cooler at higher clock speeds. The problem is
that these new Pentium IIIs needed to run software that was compiled
to run natively on 486s, 386s, or even 286s (be that as it may). In
order to pull this off, extra hardware was added to convert old CISC
instructions on the fly into small lists of RISC instructions so that
the RISC core could execute them.

The idea behind the upcoming conversion to 64bit is that we abandon
backward compability, so that the complete computer, from OS to
software to motherboard to CPU, is all seamlessly integrated in
architecture.

But Microsoft realized very quickly that not allowing compatibility
with existing 32bit apps would be a business nightmare. (Although it
would be a utopia in terms of computer speed). So what they did was
bundle a WoW64 system with their 64bit versions of XP. Which is the
XP Professional x64 Edition.

Interestingly enough, neither Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel is coming
straight out to the public about what this conversion to 64bit
platform really entails.

If you google about the details of the WoW64 system you will see that
is indeed called an EMULATOR of 32bit apps. Meaning the computer is
not sending 32bit code directly to the CPU, but instead traps every
incoming 32bit instruction and converts it to 64bit before sending it
to the native 64bit processor. Anyone who is familiar with the
difference between emulation and "compiled native code" will realize
that this entails a hefty performance degredation of 32bit code run on
a 64bit platform.

How severe is this performance degredation? Well essentially what
is happening is that every single reference to memory in old 32bit
code will have to be trapped so that all those memory pointer
references can be converted into 64bit memory pointers.
Applications write and read from memory nearly all the time. 90% of
all instructions run, reference memory in some way. Very rarely do
you have spans of code that juggle things in the registers of the CPU
only.

Ironically, if you google about WOW64, you get webpages claiming that
a 64bit computer can run old 32bit apps "without performance
degredation". This is clearly a bald-faced lie coming out of
marketing.

I am glad that the CPU industry has finally given up wholesale on
backward compability. It needed to be done at some point even though
its a "growing pain" of sorts. But what has essentially happened is
that the issues of backward compatibility have been outsourced to the
Operating System, with the hopes that the end-user will not "notice" a
performance degredation.

It is likely that professionals running 32bit business apps in an
office probably will not "notice" a performance degredation at all.
But those of you who work with intensive graphics applications or
physics simulations beware.
 
HMS Beagle said:
Niether Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel are coming clean out to the public
about what the conversion to 64bit architecture really entails for
backward compatibility and performance degredation of existing
applications.

Backward compatibility has been the bane of CPU designers for the last
20 years. In order to get clunky CISC chips to run at 1.0 GHz and
higher speeds, they have had to re-design the core pipeline of the CPU
as a RISC core, because RISC cores are much simpler than CISC cores,
and therefore, can run cooler at higher clock speeds. The problem is
that these new Pentium IIIs needed to run software that was compiled
to run natively on 486s, 386s, or even 286s (be that as it may). In
order to pull this off, extra hardware was added to convert old CISC
instructions on the fly into small lists of RISC instructions so that
the RISC core could execute them.

The idea behind the upcoming conversion to 64bit is that we abandon
backward compability, so that the complete computer, from OS to
software to motherboard to CPU, is all seamlessly integrated in
architecture.

But Microsoft realized very quickly that not allowing compatibility
with existing 32bit apps would be a business nightmare. (Although it
would be a utopia in terms of computer speed). So what they did was
bundle a WoW64 system with their 64bit versions of XP. Which is the
XP Professional x64 Edition.

Interestingly enough, neither Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel is coming
straight out to the public about what this conversion to 64bit
platform really entails.

If you google about the details of the WoW64 system you will see that
is indeed called an EMULATOR of 32bit apps. Meaning the computer is
not sending 32bit code directly to the CPU, but instead traps every
incoming 32bit instruction and converts it to 64bit before sending it
to the native 64bit processor. Anyone who is familiar with the
difference between emulation and "compiled native code" will realize
that this entails a hefty performance degredation of 32bit code run on
a 64bit platform.
Click to expand...

I think I'll believe this more than I'll believe you:

'For example, the version of 64-bit Windows developed for the Intel Itanium
2 processor uses Wow64win.dll to set up the emulation of x86 instructions
within the Itanium 2's unique instruction set. That's a more computationally
expensive task than the Wow64win.dll's functions on the AMD64 architecture,
which switches the processor hardware from its 64-bit mode to 32-bit mode
when it's time to execute a 32-bit thread, and then handles the switch back
to 64-bit mode. No emulation is required here.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOW64
 
Derek said:
I think I'll believe this more than I'll believe you:

'For example, the version of 64-bit Windows developed for the Intel Itanium
2 processor uses Wow64win.dll to set up the emulation of x86 instructions
within the Itanium 2's unique instruction set. That's a more computationally
expensive task than the Wow64win.dll's functions on the AMD64 architecture,
which switches the processor hardware from its 64-bit mode to 32-bit mode
when it's time to execute a 32-bit thread, and then handles the switch back
to 64-bit mode. No emulation is required here.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOW64
Click to expand...


I guess just one more reason to stick with the AMD64 line of CPUs. My
XP3700 Clawhammer feels so much faster than any Intel processor I've
used, and it runs a LOT cooler!!!
 
andrew said:
My XP3700 Clawhammer feels so much faster than any Intel processor I've
used, and it runs a LOT cooler!!!
Click to expand...

Wait until you get into the 90nm models. They are amazing!

--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at
(e-mail address removed)
Thanks, robots.
 
HMS said:
Niether Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel are coming clean out to the public
about what the conversion to 64bit architecture really entails for
backward compatibility and performance degredation of existing
applications.

Backward compatibility has been the bane of CPU designers for the last
20 years. In order to get clunky CISC chips to run at 1.0 GHz and
higher speeds, they have had to re-design the core pipeline of the CPU
as a RISC core, because RISC cores are much simpler than CISC cores,
and therefore, can run cooler at higher clock speeds. The problem is
that these new Pentium IIIs needed to run software that was compiled
to run natively on 486s, 386s, or even 286s (be that as it may). In
order to pull this off, extra hardware was added to convert old CISC
instructions on the fly into small lists of RISC instructions so that
the RISC core could execute them.

The idea behind the upcoming conversion to 64bit is that we abandon
backward compability, so that the complete computer, from OS to
software to motherboard to CPU, is all seamlessly integrated in
architecture.

But Microsoft realized very quickly that not allowing compatibility
with existing 32bit apps would be a business nightmare. (Although it
would be a utopia in terms of computer speed). So what they did was
bundle a WoW64 system with their 64bit versions of XP. Which is the
XP Professional x64 Edition.

Interestingly enough, neither Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel is coming
straight out to the public about what this conversion to 64bit
platform really entails.

If you google about the details of the WoW64 system you will see that
is indeed called an EMULATOR of 32bit apps. Meaning the computer is
not sending 32bit code directly to the CPU, but instead traps every
incoming 32bit instruction and converts it to 64bit before sending it
to the native 64bit processor. Anyone who is familiar with the
difference between emulation and "compiled native code" will realize
that this entails a hefty performance degredation of 32bit code run on
a 64bit platform.

How severe is this performance degredation? Well essentially what
is happening is that every single reference to memory in old 32bit
code will have to be trapped so that all those memory pointer
references can be converted into 64bit memory pointers.
Applications write and read from memory nearly all the time. 90% of
all instructions run, reference memory in some way. Very rarely do
you have spans of code that juggle things in the registers of the CPU
only.

Ironically, if you google about WOW64, you get webpages claiming that
a 64bit computer can run old 32bit apps "without performance
degredation". This is clearly a bald-faced lie coming out of
marketing.

I am glad that the CPU industry has finally given up wholesale on
backward compability. It needed to be done at some point even though
its a "growing pain" of sorts. But what has essentially happened is
that the issues of backward compatibility have been outsourced to the
Operating System, with the hopes that the end-user will not "notice" a
performance degredation.

It is likely that professionals running 32bit business apps in an
office probably will not "notice" a performance degredation at all.
But those of you who work with intensive graphics applications or
physics simulations beware.
Click to expand...

Lets not forget, apps that aren't easy to port to 64bit compilation, are
down to poor design and programming in the 1st place...
 
I think I'll believe this more than I'll believe you:

'For example, the version of 64-bit Windows developed for the Intel Itanium
2 processor uses Wow64win.dll to set up the emulation of x86 instructions
within the Itanium 2's unique instruction set. That's a more computationally
expensive task than the Wow64win.dll's functions on the AMD64 architecture,
which switches the processor hardware from its 64-bit mode to 32-bit mode
when it's time to execute a 32-bit thread, and then handles the switch back
to 64-bit mode. No emulation is required here.'
Click to expand...

But wait! That looks and smells and sounds like full hardware
backward compatibility. You do realize that having a 32-bit pipe
inside the 64bit CPU adds extra circuitry, and extra circuitry means
that you run hotter, thus you are less stable at higher clock speeds.
I know I realize this. But do you?

My understanding is that this conversion to 64bit was going to abandon
backward compatibility (at the hardware level) so that we can run
these next-generation processors cooler, and hence faster.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the chip manufacturers have caved in and
decided to do the same old stuff they have been doing for the last 20
years. (And that is conserving old clunky hardware that was designed
to run code written 10 years ago.)
 
HMS Beagle said:
But wait! That looks and smells and sounds like full hardware
backward compatibility. You do realize that having a 32-bit pipe
inside the 64bit CPU adds extra circuitry, and extra circuitry means
that you run hotter, thus you are less stable at higher clock speeds.
I know I realize this. But do you?
Click to expand...

The Winchesters and later run _really_ cool. Like, on 2/3 or less the power
of the former ones.

When mine is at 100% along with the video card, it only reaches 45C if it's
warm inside.

I do have an Arctic Freezer 64 (with the ratty base) on it with no fan, and
an aluminum tape duct to the 80mm 2300 rpm case fan, so it's not a typical
case, but they are fabulously low-power.

--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at
(e-mail address removed)
Thanks, robots.
 
HMS Beagle said:
But wait! That looks and smells and sounds like full hardware
backward compatibility. You do realize that having a 32-bit pipe
inside the 64bit CPU adds extra circuitry, and extra circuitry means
that you run hotter, thus you are less stable at higher clock speeds.
I know I realize this. But do you?
Click to expand...

There is ONE pipe for each task, it does both 64 and 32 bit.
 
HMS Beagle said:
But wait! That looks and smells and sounds like full hardware
backward compatibility. You do realize that having a 32-bit pipe
inside the 64bit CPU adds extra circuitry, and extra circuitry means
that you run hotter, thus you are less stable at higher clock speeds.
I know I realize this. But do you?
Click to expand...

Hmm, maybe you should read up on the AMD 64 bit extemions before
posting this mis-information around. The chip doesn't have both a 64
and 32 bit pipe, it uses a single pipe where only the lower 32 bits are
being used when executing 32 bit code. Hence running 32 bit code
means only the lower half of the pipe is being utilized.
My understanding is that this conversion to 64bit was going to abandon
backward compatibility (at the hardware level) so that we can run
these next-generation processors cooler, and hence faster.
Click to expand...

You are thinking of Intel's Itanium 64 bit chip. It requires software
emulation
to run legacy 32 bit applications. AMD's 64 bit extensions are fully
backward
compatible to the point that the 64 bit chips can boot and run a 32 bit OS
that is unware it is running on a 64 bit CPU. The fact I can install a plain
copy of 32 bit Windows or Linux without any special emulation software
is proof that no emulation occurs. The fact that 32 bit games run blazingly
fast on 32 bit Windows, in fact faster than 64 bit games on 64 bit Windows,
is also proof that there is no performance penalty.
Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the chip manufacturers have caved in and
decided to do the same old stuff they have been doing for the last 20
years. (And that is conserving old clunky hardware that was designed
to run code written 10 years ago.)
Click to expand...

While AMD64 is backward compatible with 32 bit code, it is hardly old
clunky hardware. The 64 bit architecure adds a significant number of
new 64 bit registers to the programming model, with the original 32 bit
registers extended to full 64 bits. This alone allows compilers to do a much
better job of optimizing code, some Linux tests showed performance
improvements of 30% due to this fact alone. While encryption software
that can make full use of 64 bit registers benefit by 200%.

The architectural features available from this new chip match those of
any other 64 bit architecture. Also due to the variable length instruction
word, code for AMD64 is much smaller than the same code for a 64 bit
RISC chip. So the AMD64 uses less memory bandwidth to read its
instruction stream, leaving more available for data (although making the
instruction decoding more complex, but we can live with complex if it
makes the chip faster).
 
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Ed Light said:
The Winchesters and later run _really_ cool. Like, on 2/3 or less the power
of the former ones.

When mine is at 100% along with the video card, it only reaches 45C if it's
warm inside.

I do have an Arctic Freezer 64 (with the ratty base) on it with no fan, and
an aluminum tape duct to the 80mm 2300 rpm case fan, so it's not a typical
case, but they are fabulously low-power.
Click to expand...
You're right. I've got a 2800+(1800) clawhammer overclocked to 2250 at 1.6v
using the original heatsink/fan with Arctic Silver.Idle temps around 47C.
Load is about 52C. Pretty amazing
 
HMS said:
Niether Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel are coming clean out to the public
about what the conversion to 64bit architecture really entails for
backward compatibility and performance degredation of existing
applications.

Backward compatibility has been the bane of CPU designers for the last
20 years. In order to get clunky CISC chips to run at 1.0 GHz and
higher speeds, they have had to re-design the core pipeline of the CPU
as a RISC core, because RISC cores are much simpler than CISC cores,
and therefore, can run cooler at higher clock speeds. The problem is
that these new Pentium IIIs needed to run software that was compiled
to run natively on 486s, 386s, or even 286s (be that as it may). In
order to pull this off, extra hardware was added to convert old CISC
instructions on the fly into small lists of RISC instructions so that
the RISC core could execute them.

The idea behind the upcoming conversion to 64bit is that we abandon
backward compability, so that the complete computer, from OS to
software to motherboard to CPU, is all seamlessly integrated in
architecture.

But Microsoft realized very quickly that not allowing compatibility
with existing 32bit apps would be a business nightmare. (Although it
would be a utopia in terms of computer speed). So what they did was
bundle a WoW64 system with their 64bit versions of XP. Which is the
XP Professional x64 Edition.

Interestingly enough, neither Microsoft, AMD, nor Intel is coming
straight out to the public about what this conversion to 64bit
platform really entails.

If you google about the details of the WoW64 system you will see that
is indeed called an EMULATOR of 32bit apps. Meaning the computer is
not sending 32bit code directly to the CPU, but instead traps every
incoming 32bit instruction and converts it to 64bit before sending it
to the native 64bit processor. Anyone who is familiar with the
difference between emulation and "compiled native code" will realize
that this entails a hefty performance degredation of 32bit code run on
a 64bit platform.

How severe is this performance degredation? Well essentially what
is happening is that every single reference to memory in old 32bit
code will have to be trapped so that all those memory pointer
references can be converted into 64bit memory pointers.
Applications write and read from memory nearly all the time. 90% of
all instructions run, reference memory in some way. Very rarely do
you have spans of code that juggle things in the registers of the CPU
only.

Ironically, if you google about WOW64, you get webpages claiming that
a 64bit computer can run old 32bit apps "without performance
degredation". This is clearly a bald-faced lie coming out of
marketing.

I am glad that the CPU industry has finally given up wholesale on
backward compability. It needed to be done at some point even though
its a "growing pain" of sorts. But what has essentially happened is
that the issues of backward compatibility have been outsourced to the
Operating System, with the hopes that the end-user will not "notice" a
performance degredation.

It is likely that professionals running 32bit business apps in an
office probably will not "notice" a performance degredation at all.
But those of you who work with intensive graphics applications or
physics simulations beware.
Click to expand...

This is a good, solid reason for running/switching to 64bit Linux. True
64bit os and applications.... No emulation.

--

******************************************************************************
Registered Linux User Number 185956
FSF Associate Member number 2340 since 05/20/2004
Join me in chat at #linux-users on irc.freenode.net
Buy an Xbox for $149.00, run linux on it and Microsoft loses $150.00!
4:58pm up 11 days, 1:31, 1 user, load average: 0.12, 0.07, 0.02
 
This is a good, solid reason for running/switching to 64bit Linux. True
64bit os and applications.... No emulation.

--

******************************************************************************
Registered Linux User Number 185956
FSF Associate Member number 2340 since 05/20/2004
Join me in chat at #linux-users on irc.freenode.net
Buy an Xbox for $149.00, run linux on it and Microsoft loses $150.00!
4:58pm up 11 days, 1:31, 1 user, load average: 0.12, 0.07, 0.02
Click to expand...

So, as someone who is very much interested in using the 64 bit version of
Linux... which version do you use? Are the different versions strictly
different companies trying to sell a product? Or are they different in
function and use? I have downloaded the Suse Linux DVD and have booted it
off my drive to play around with it. It isn't nearly as intimidating as I
expected...
 
Jerry McBride said:
HMS Beagle wrote:
Click to expand...
[ snip irrelevent and incorrect speculation vis-a-vis AMD64/EM64T ]

Why is it a lie? The processors (both Intel and AMD) support native
32-bit execution. You can even boot and run a 32-bit operating system.
Any 64-bit operating system can handle 32-bit application just fine, so
long as the appropriate 32-bit DLL's and/or shared objects are loaded.

There is no performance degradation for 32-bit applications on a 64-bit
operating system.

First, the CPU industry is more than just Intel and AMD. Second, they
haven't given up on backward compatability - all Intel and AMD ia32
and ia32 with 64-bit extensions processors still execute DOS, still
reset into 16-bit real mode. Still support segmented architectures, task
gates, 4 priority rings and all the other ia32 baggage. Some of that
no longer exists in 64-bit mode, but that's primarily because nobody
was using it (segment limits was an exception, and AMD subsequently hacked
them back into 64-bit mode for vmware and xen).

This is just flat out wrong. It's wrong for Linux and it's wrong for
Windows.

More incorrect information.
This is a good, solid reason for running/switching to 64bit Linux. True
64bit os and applications.... No emulation.
Click to expand...

And linux supports all existing 32-bit applications (presuming the shared
objects are available in 32-bit form) with no recompilation or other
modification - just like windows does.

To put it kindly, the OP was full of it.

scott
 
[the original attribution for this was snipped by the previous poster]
This is a good, solid reason for running/switching to 64bit Linux. True
64bit os and applications.... No emulation.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

64-bit linux will run 32-bit binaries, which may or may not be covered by
what you wrote above.
So, as someone who is very much interested in using the 64 bit version of
Linux... which version do you use? Are the different versions strictly
different companies trying to sell a product?
Click to expand...

Or give one away in some cases. There are differences, just as there
differences in all distros.
Or are they different in function and use? I have downloaded the Suse
Linux DVD and have booted it off my drive to play around with it.
It isn't nearly as intimidating as I expected...
Click to expand...

SuSE was a quite excellent distro for a long time, but Novell is starting
to taint it with their normal cruft, and it remains to be seen how long
it survives before it turns into something more akin to NetWare in
quality. However, it is quite good in its current form. If you use
that, you'll be in good shape.
 
This is a good, solid reason for running/switching to 64bit Linux. True
64bit os and applications.... No emulation.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's not (not that 64bit Linux isn't a good idea in its own
right). There is no emulation going on in AMD64. The processor runs both
32bit and 64bit applications natively. ...side by side, even.
 
[the original attribution for this was snipped by the previous poster]
This is a good, solid reason for running/switching to 64bit Linux. True
64bit os and applications.... No emulation.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

64-bit linux will run 32-bit binaries, which may or may not be covered by
what you wrote above.
So, as someone who is very much interested in using the 64 bit version of
Linux... which version do you use? Are the different versions strictly
different companies trying to sell a product?
Click to expand...

Or give one away in some cases. There are differences, just as there
differences in all distros.
Or are they different in function and use? I have downloaded the Suse
Linux DVD and have booted it off my drive to play around with it.
It isn't nearly as intimidating as I expected...
Click to expand...

SuSE was a quite excellent distro for a long time, but Novell is starting
to taint it with their normal cruft, and it remains to be seen how long
it survives before it turns into something more akin to NetWare in
quality. However, it is quite good in its current form. If you use
that, you'll be in good shape.
Click to expand...

I've been running SuSE 9.0 for a little over a year now. Though I'm
certainly not a Linux freak, I'm pleased with it.
 
Derek said:
I think I'll believe this more than I'll believe you:

'For example, the version of 64-bit Windows developed for the Intel Itanium
2 processor uses Wow64win.dll to set up the emulation of x86 instructions
within the Itanium 2's unique instruction set. That's a more computationally
expensive task than the Wow64win.dll's functions on the AMD64 architecture,
which switches the processor hardware from its 64-bit mode to 32-bit mode
when it's time to execute a 32-bit thread, and then handles the switch back
to 64-bit mode. No emulation is required here.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOW64
Click to expand...

And even that is not entirely true. There's no real mode switch going on
in Wow64 on x86-64 processors (AMD64 & EM64T). The existing 64-bit mode
is quite capable of running 32-bit apps underneath it. A mode switch
would imply some sort of slow reset of the processor, as it switches
from mode to mode. But really all it's doing is running a 32-bit subset
of the 64-bit mode. It's sort of like the difference between an
apartment unit vs. an apartment building. The apartment building is a
whole bunch of apartment units.

Yousuf Khan
 
Ed said:
Wait until you get into the 90nm models. They are amazing!
Click to expand...
True, my 3500+ [Venice] runs at 30c & 45-50 on load, great CPU....
running it on a Gigabyte 3D1, & all work great....
 
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