I give up: Most bang for memory $ for P4C800-E Deluxe

[_R]

I initially thought it would be pretty easy to spec memory for a
P4C800E-Deluxe, but the more explored it, the more dark corners I
found. Like PAT giving up if 4 chips are plugged in. And unexpected
reductions of throughput if certain things are not met.

At this point, I'd just like to find an economical solution to the
immediate problem so I can get back to writing software. I'm not an
overclocker or gamer, so pressing the last Hz is not important. In
fact, my current feeling is that 2G of less expensive memory will
probably serve better than 1G of ultra high speed (maybe close in
price)

So I'll probably go with 2 sticks of 1GB apiece (total 2Gigs).
DDR400. Matched enough for use in dual channel, obviously. I don't
want to give anything up if I don't have to. I'd like to get a
reputable brand - maybe Corsair or Kingston (open to other
suggestions).

IF the 'value line' sticks end up almost much as the top of the
line TwinX or whatever, then I'll just pay the difference and get
the better ram.

Within that picture, does any particular RAM stand out?
I know some of you have done serious research on this. Could
you encapsulate the choices?

Much appreciated. I have to decide soon.

 

[Paladin]

I initially thought it would be pretty easy to spec memory for a
P4C800E-Deluxe, but the more explored it, the more dark corners I
found. Like PAT giving up if 4 chips are plugged in. And unexpected
reductions of throughput if certain things are not met.

At this point, I'd just like to find an economical solution to the
immediate problem so I can get back to writing software. I'm not an
overclocker or gamer, so pressing the last Hz is not important. In
fact, my current feeling is that 2G of less expensive memory will
probably serve better than 1G of ultra high speed (maybe close in
price)

So I'll probably go with 2 sticks of 1GB apiece (total 2Gigs).
DDR400. Matched enough for use in dual channel, obviously. I don't
want to give anything up if I don't have to. I'd like to get a
reputable brand - maybe Corsair or Kingston (open to other
suggestions).

IF the 'value line' sticks end up almost much as the top of the
line TwinX or whatever, then I'll just pay the difference and get
the better ram.

Within that picture, does any particular RAM stand out?
I know some of you have done serious research on this. Could
you encapsulate the choices?

Much appreciated. I have to decide soon.

My suggestion would be Crucial. It is extremely high quality,
compatible with everything, and the folks at Crucial are some of the
nicest I've evr had the pleasure of doing business with. If you take
the time to call them, they will suggest the perfect memory
configuration for your particular mobo.

What's better that that? I dunno.



PALADIN

 

[Paul]

I initially thought it would be pretty easy to spec memory for a
P4C800E-Deluxe, but the more explored it, the more dark corners I
found. Like PAT giving up if 4 chips are plugged in. And unexpected
reductions of throughput if certain things are not met.

At this point, I'd just like to find an economical solution to the
immediate problem so I can get back to writing software. I'm not an
overclocker or gamer, so pressing the last Hz is not important. In
fact, my current feeling is that 2G of less expensive memory will
probably serve better than 1G of ultra high speed (maybe close in
price)

So I'll probably go with 2 sticks of 1GB apiece (total 2Gigs).
DDR400. Matched enough for use in dual channel, obviously. I don't
want to give anything up if I don't have to. I'd like to get a
reputable brand - maybe Corsair or Kingston (open to other
suggestions).

IF the 'value line' sticks end up almost much as the top of the
line TwinX or whatever, then I'll just pay the difference and get
the better ram.

Within that picture, does any particular RAM stand out?
I know some of you have done serious research on this. Could
you encapsulate the choices?

Much appreciated. I have to decide soon.

I added the second line to this table of results from another
testing session I ran. Timings listed here are as set in the
1014 BIOS I'm using.

2x512MB DS 2-2-2-6 DDR400 FSB800 P4C 2.80Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2955MB/sec
2x512MB DS 3-3-3-8 DDR400 FSB800 P4C 2.80Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2549MB/sec
4x512MB DS 2-2-2-6 DDR400 FSB800 P4C 2.80Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2733MB/sec
4x512MB DS 2-2-2-6 DDR410 FSB820 P4C 2.87Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2802MB/sec

As you hated to lose a bit of bandwidth, I think you should pick up
some CAS2 sticks if you can find them:

http://www.crucial.com/store/listpa...=ASUS&cat=RAM&model=P4C800-E+Deluxe&submit=Go

4x512MB CT6464Z40B PC3200 CAS3 $240 for 2549MB/sec

4x512MB Ballistix PC3200 CAS2 $440 for 2733MB/sec
2x1GB Ballistix PC4000 CAS3 $560 for ~2549MB/sec (maybe will run CAS2.5?)

Twinx2048-3200c2 Corsair PC3200 CAS2 $387 (ZZF) ~2955MB/sec

Similar to the Corsair, some OCZ
PC3200 2-3-2-5 2x1GB kit $488
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_el_ddr_pc_3200_dual_channel_platinum


(Note - It is dangerous to extrapolate the results from 2x512MB
to 2x1024MB, so results will likely be less than 2900 but
greater than the other three results listed above. The
Corsair is 2-3-3-6 on an Intel system. The OCZ is similar.
For the Crucial Ballistix, it could run a lower CAS when at DDR400,
but we have no way of knowing whether it will do CAS2.5 or CAS2
at that speed.)

(Note2 - ZZF = Zipzoomfly.com)

The difference from 2549 to 2955 is a 16% increase. That
translates to a 5% increase in average application performance.
Is a 5% increase in application performance worth 50% more
expensive memory ? You decide.

Paul

 

[_R]

I added the second line to this table of results from another
testing session I ran.
2x512MB DS 2-2-2-6 DDR400 FSB800 P4C 2.80Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2955MB/sec
2x512MB DS 3-3-3-8 DDR400 FSB800 P4C 2.80Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2549MB/sec
4x512MB DS 2-2-2-6 DDR400 FSB800 P4C 2.80Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2733MB/sec
4x512MB DS 2-2-2-6 DDR410 FSB820 P4C 2.87Ghz Memtest86+ 1.4 = 2802MB/sec

Hey Paul! I'm glad you checked in. The tests above look like there's
a fairly serious performance jump going from 2 to 3. Unfortunately, I
think the price difference is even more serious, so I'm still trying
to balance things.

Presuming the performance between 2 and 4 sticks above is due to PAT
dropping out, I've pretty much decided on getting 2 x 1Gig sticks. I
figure things will change again soon anyway, and I'll have to drop
these in my 2nd or 3rd system (I run a few computers on a KVM-- best
way to multiprocess<g>).

Anyway... I'm having a bit of trouble finding 'regular' (nonpremium)
matched 1G sticks. I've heard that just getting two decent quality
sticks (like Corsair VS1GB400) from the same batch should work fine as
dual-channel. A *pair* of VS1GB400 would be about $180. By contrast,
Corsair TWINX2048-3200C2 2GB Kit is $390 from the same vendor.
Over twice the price for higher perf matched sticks!

Again, the main problem I see with the VS1GB400 is that it's not
available in matched pairs and I'm not sure how close the two sticks
need to be to run dual channel. (If they don't, THAT could be a
serious performance hit!).

Do you happen to know anything about that? (matching) Or maybe
another manufacturer does have similar priced matched 1G sticks?

R

 

[Paul]

Hey Paul! I'm glad you checked in. The tests above look like there's
a fairly serious performance jump going from 2 to 3. Unfortunately, I
think the price difference is even more serious, so I'm still trying
to balance things.

Presuming the performance between 2 and 4 sticks above is due to PAT
dropping out, I've pretty much decided on getting 2 x 1Gig sticks. I
figure things will change again soon anyway, and I'll have to drop
these in my 2nd or 3rd system (I run a few computers on a KVM-- best
way to multiprocess<g>).

Anyway... I'm having a bit of trouble finding 'regular' (nonpremium)
matched 1G sticks. I've heard that just getting two decent quality
sticks (like Corsair VS1GB400) from the same batch should work fine as
dual-channel. A *pair* of VS1GB400 would be about $180. By contrast,
Corsair TWINX2048-3200C2 2GB Kit is $390 from the same vendor.
Over twice the price for higher perf matched sticks!

Again, the main problem I see with the VS1GB400 is that it's not
available in matched pairs and I'm not sure how close the two sticks
need to be to run dual channel. (If they don't, THAT could be a
serious performance hit!).

Do you happen to know anything about that? (matching) Or maybe
another manufacturer does have similar priced matched 1G sticks?

R

I just checked Pricewatch, and VS1GB400 CAS3 runs $139-$149 a
stick. Two sticks is $280-$300. You are getting an extremely
good price at $180 for the two of them - makes me wonder if
the memory is legit. The cheapest generic 1GB modules on
Pricewatch are $75 a piece, and those are stacked modules,
so your price is pretty good. (I see a KVR400X64C3AK2 kit
of 2x512MB for $89 - is that what you were looking at ?)

Getting two sticks from the same vendor should give you
very good odds of getting similar construction. For dual channel,
the rows/columns/banks/ranks have to match, so that the two sticks
can be sent the same commands at the same time. Even if you
had a CAS2 in one channel, and a CAS3 in the other
channel, the BIOS should set both to CAS3, and as long as
the addressing dimensions match, they would dual channel.
The memory chips don't have to be the same brand.

Corsair VS1GB400C3 1GB DDR400 PC3200 CAS2.5 Value Select Retail $140
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80098-34

My reason for adding that line to my table of results, was to show
the hit from using CAS3 memory. That Value Select is CAS2.5, so
that is a little better than using some CAS3.

HTH,
Paul

 

[_R]

I just checked Pricewatch, and VS1GB400 CAS3 runs $139-$149 a
stick. Two sticks is $280-$300. You are getting an extremely
good price at $180 for the two of them - makes me wonder if
the memory is legit.

You're right. I could have sworn that was the correct price, but
maybe I got it mixed up with the price for the 1G SET (2 x 512M).
(DOH!)

Still, 2 x Corsair VS1GB400 = $280 at CAS2.5
The Corsair TWINX2048 pair = $390 (at CAS2?)

So I may go with the VS's and spend the extra $100 on a Neopower
supply (just tried one and so far it's great). (It's between that and
the SL450 for a bit less.)

That is, unless you talk me into spending $100 more for a bit of
extra speed, but it sounds like the effect on overall system speed
would be 1 or 2 percent at this point,

I usually buy closer to the 'knee of the price- performance curve'
though, and going with two 1G sticks is already a bit over.
Everything will be DDR2 eventually anyway.

By the way, why aren't you using a DDR2 motherboard? Not
solid enough in operation yet? I've heard of encounters with
obscure bugs probably due to the Intel 900-series chip set.

(cont'd)

Getting two sticks from the same vendor should give you
very good odds of getting similar construction.

That seems to be the opinion of some mfgs' techs as well.
So I think that's where I'm going.

Corsair VS1GB400C3 1GB DDR400 PC3200 CAS2.5 Value Select Retail $140
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80098-34

My reason for adding that line to my table of results, was to show
the hit from using CAS3 memory. That Value Select is CAS2.5, so
that is a little better than using some CAS3.

Good to hear. By the way, ASUS should be paying you to hang here.
You've been a tremendous technical resource. I've got more from the
tech posts (mostly yours) in this group than I have from combing the
more general hardware/storage groups.

Since I'm at it, the other things I need to find:

Good memory test software
Good drive scan software (I've had trouble with another WD250)
Good dual ATA controller (no RAID needed).

For the latter I may end up using a 3ware RAID controller config'd
for non-RAID. I've had bad luck with external Promise/Maxtor
controller cards (tons of messages in the event viewer that seem
to trace back to firmware problems).

The other alternatives are Adaptec 1233 ATA controller, which
no one seems to have in stock. Or maybe an SIIG ATA board
which can be had with additional USB/Firewire/SATA ports on it.
I'm not sure who SIIG is, but I'm hoping their hardware&drivers are
not as bad as Promise. I don't suppose you know about them(?)

I need the memory and drive test software to do extensive burnin
on a system that gens a lot of error messages (Promise ATA 133
again). Got to see if it could be RAM or a drive that's causing the
problems.

_R

 

[Paul]

That is, unless you talk me into spending $100 more for a bit of
extra speed, but it sounds like the effect on overall system speed
would be 1 or 2 percent at this point.

Only you know how far up the price/performance curve you can
afford to climb

I usually buy closer to the 'knee of the price- performance curve'
though, and going with two 1G sticks is already a bit over.
Everything will be DDR2 eventually anyway.

By the way, why aren't you using a DDR2 motherboard? Not
solid enough in operation yet? I've heard of encounters with
obscure bugs probably due to the Intel 900-series chip set.

DDR2 only pays off, if you run at higher than DDR2-400.
DDR400 is actually faster than DDR2-400, so you need to go
to 533 or higher to see an improvement. And besides, I
already have a very nice P4C800-E

Since I'm at it, the other things I need to find:

Good memory test software
Good drive scan software (I've had trouble with another WD250)
Good dual ATA controller (no RAID needed).

For the latter I may end up using a 3ware RAID controller config'd
for non-RAID. I've had bad luck with external Promise/Maxtor
controller cards (tons of messages in the event viewer that seem
to trace back to firmware problems).

The other alternatives are Adaptec 1233 ATA controller, which
no one seems to have in stock. Or maybe an SIIG ATA board
which can be had with additional USB/Firewire/SATA ports on it.
I'm not sure who SIIG is, but I'm hoping their hardware&drivers are
not as bad as Promise. I don't suppose you know about them(?)

I need the memory and drive test software to do extensive burnin
on a system that gens a lot of error messages (Promise ATA 133
again). Got to see if it could be RAM or a drive that's causing the
problems.

_R

For basic memory testing, memtest86+ from www.memtest86.org is
a good test program. It can either be run from a floppy or from
a CD. DFI has even included the program into their BIOS flash
chip. And, it is available as a boot option on a Knoppix CD.

But memtest86 has its limits. For final acceptance testing, I
recommend using Prime95 and its "torture test" option. If a
board can run error free for four hours with that, it is likely
in pretty good shape. Prime95 can be downloaded from mersenne.org .
If you use the Linux version, you can even run multiple copies
and give them each a private chunk of memory to play with.
Just make private directories for each copy and run them from
there.

Haven't a clue on the disk end of things. I just use'em until
they drop I don't even believe in RAID, preferring instead
to stick with a single disk (with a single platter) for best MTBF.
The Southbridge disk interface is good enough for that. For
backups, temporarily connecting a second disk, and cloning
across, is good enough. I don't have an MP3 collection, so
don't need a lot of disk (about 40GB per machine used).

Paul

 

[_R]

Only you know how far up the price/performance curve you can
afford to climb

Yeah, it's always just a question of $ allocation for me. I decided
to go with an extra Neopower supply instead of the bit of horsepower.
My devel stations are sort of a 'rotational' papa bear, mama bear
thing. (The Rambus systems are hitting the dumpster. <g>)

All of the systems were a little short of wattage given the number of
drives I've thrown in there (4 in Raid 0 + 4 nonraid in the two top
systems. (Hey Antec, A 550W Neopower would be great!)

Still, the Neo's interchangeable cabling concept is very cool, and
should allow adapting to future standards. The thing I was
apprehensive about: I've found that the weak link in just about
every system I've built with lots of drives is the damn Molex
connectors. I've had to use Y splitters for the RAIDs which
compounds things. Seems like every other day I hear a drive spin
down and have to hunt down an oxidized connector.

Of course the Neopower has the extra set of metal-to-metal in the
connections into the main box, but at least everything is gold plated.
No spin-downs yet.

DDR2 only pays off, if you run at higher than DDR2-400.
DDR400 is actually faster than DDR2-400, so you need to go
to 533 or higher to see an improvement.

Now that I'm primarily doing software I haven't kept up with all
aspects of memory timing etc, so your posts have been great.
Needed a bit of decode time, but I got a better picture of timing
and a couple other obscure things (like PAT dropping out with
4 sticks).

I had heard that DDR2 won't pay off until 533+. One of my
clients jumps on everything new and shiny, so of course he got
915/925 chipsets. He ended up with obscure software problems
and no real increase in speed. I thought I'd ask though, as maybe
you had figured out how to get around that.

Memory manufacturers are saying that regular DDR is near the
end of its life-cycle and everything will be DDR-2 soon. We'll
see.

And besides, I
already have a very nice P4C800-E

I had spent a while weighing specs and features. It was
encouraging to see that you had also ended up with the P4c800.

... memory testing, memtest86+ from www.memtest86.org is
a good test program. It can either be run from a floppy or from
a CD. DFI has even included the program into their BIOS flash
chip. And, it is available as a boot option on a Knoppix CD.

Thanks for the recommendations.

Haven't a clue on the disk end of things. I just use'em until
they drop I don't even believe in RAID, preferring instead
to stick with a single disk (with a single platter) for best MTBF.

I'm starting to agree with that. I'll probably get rid of the Raid0's
soon when 400g drives are out in volume.

I've run RAID0 for a few years since I was working on projects that
req'd playback of raw video. Drives would get slower as the head
approached the inner edge (less area per second moving under the
head). It was nice to have the additional storage capacity too.
But the things do get frustrating after a few drive failures.
Of course I was using WD drives. I've switched to Seagate
recently and so far they seem a lot more reliable. (If you're
interested, keep an eye on deals from Outpost.com, Fry's
online branch)

Thanks again for the meticulous tests, Paul!

_R