HP Suing G&G Ninestar Image Co - August 31, 2006

  • Thread starter Thread starter BobbytheBrain
  • Start date Start date
BobbytheBrain said:
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/15405080.htm

Anybody ever used G&G HP Remanfactured Cartridges before? Just
curious if they are of decent quality.

It's almost a moot point. It was just last week that I read that Epson
was suing the same company. One aftermarket vendor has already pulled
the brand from its line.

Quoting the Wall Street Journal piece that you referenced: "In fiscal
2005, H-P made more than 80 percent of its $5.6 billion in operating
profit from ink and toner supplies, according to Sanford C. Bernstein & Co."

Let this figure sink in!

Almost _all_ of this vast corporation's profit comes from ink and toner!
There's also the issue of the captive customer. Why, what's the
difference between Epson, and let's say, your friendly neighborhood
street corner drug pusher?

With the chips and lawsuits, I submit that we have been witnessing a
cartel at work, engaged in a practice that's illegal in the United
States: de-facto restraint of trade, preventing compeition. I'd have
nothing against these folks if they behaved in the spirit of open
competition.

I'd be willing to buy OEM supplies if they were priced fairly and
honestly, and sold in a fee and open marketplace that was competitive.
Maybe the OEMs could license others to make interchangeable cartridges
that all work (as has been done with audio cassette tape, video tape,
etc.). They could charge a premium price for their OEM products as is
done in other endeavors: the higher price would be justified by, maybe,
better quality control. The R&D cost should be incorporated in the price
of the printer itself: all of it!

Comments?

Richard
 
Richard said:
It's almost a moot point. It was just last week that I read that Epson
was suing the same company. One aftermarket vendor has already pulled
the brand from its line.

Quoting the Wall Street Journal piece that you referenced: "In fiscal
2005, H-P made more than 80 percent of its $5.6 billion in operating
profit from ink and toner supplies, according to Sanford C. Bernstein &
Co."

Let this figure sink in!

Almost _all_ of this vast corporation's profit comes from ink and toner!
There's also the issue of the captive customer. Why, what's the
difference between Epson, and let's say, your friendly neighborhood
street corner drug pusher?

With the chips and lawsuits, I submit that we have been witnessing a
cartel at work, engaged in a practice that's illegal in the United
States: de-facto restraint of trade, preventing compeition. I'd have
nothing against these folks if they behaved in the spirit of open
competition.

I'd be willing to buy OEM supplies if they were priced fairly and
honestly, and sold in a fee and open marketplace that was competitive.
Maybe the OEMs could license others to make interchangeable cartridges
that all work (as has been done with audio cassette tape, video tape,
etc.). They could charge a premium price for their OEM products as is
done in other endeavors: the higher price would be justified by, maybe,
better quality control. The R&D cost should be incorporated in the price
of the printer itself: all of it!

Comments?

I simply won't buy a product that can't use compatible ink/cartridges.
The Canons I currently own will probably be used at our house for quite
some time. In fact, I may buy a couple more BCI-6 based printers to
keep them in storage should one of ours die. If enough of us take this
stand then it will have an impact.

IMO, you do have a point about preventing competition. I kind of equate
the OEM ink issue to automakers voiding a car's warranty, or simply
making it nonfunctional, if any maintenance or consumable items required
to operate the vehicle are used other than their corporate brand. This
has been prohibited by law and I hope one day the printer manufacturers
are subject to the same legal benchmark.

There are no legitimate reasons, IMO, for printer makers to require
proprietary chips in ink cartridges to operate their products. This,
along with the lawsuits, is aimed at creating a monopoly for them to
supply ink for their printers. Once again, this would be like the
automakers putting a gas tank in their cars that requires the use of
their branded gasoline nozzle at corporate owned gas stations. Then
pricing the gas at ten times its market value. As a last nail in the
consumer's coffin, the automakers would then sue all the other
independent gas stations to prevent them from using any variant of their
nozzles to fill up their vehicles.

Like I said, I WILL NOT buy an inkjet printer that leaves me with no
other option than to buy wildly over priced OEM ink and I hope others do
the same. It also wouldn't hurt to start a letter writing and/or email
campaign to the politicians to allow open competition in the ink supply
market. The OEM's have done a good job of keeping a lid on their
campaign to gouge their customers on printer consumables and they need
to be held accountable.
 
Nice to hear an intelligent cancer researcher's career was diverted to
now working for HP as an ink tester looking for patent infringements.

All mankind should be grateful, don't you think.... ;-)

Art
 
I could not agree with you more, and I think that if the public were to
lobby their elected officials and stress that the actions taken by the
printer manufacturers is a violation of the antitrust legislation of the
US (Sherman, Clayton and other acts) which for years protected the
public from just such actions, we might turn this situation around.

The decisions being reached in the Courts have been based upon patent
violations, but the real issue is not intellectual or material rights
protection, but that the printer manufacturers are requiring certain
branded consumables be used with their products, a type of tying that is
illegal in contracts under the antitrust acts.

Indeed, it could be argued that many of the so-called features
integrated into ink and toner cartridges have no real purpose other than
to place patented technologies into them which the printers are designed
to require in order to work with the cartridges. Then, the
manufacturers sue 3rd party manufacturers of the consumables using the
power of the patent law to claim infringement, when the only reason the
patented design is used in the 3rd party product is because the printer
checks for it and will not work without it. It could easily be argued
that some of these patented systems actually harm the printing
experience and lessen the functionality of the printer, or make reuse or
refilling of the cartridges difficult or impossible.

Until a large enough constituency is formed to lobby and demand of their
legislators that this situation is corrected, for a myriad of reasons,
including environmental, economic, and, as I stated, functionality,
these companies will continue to use patent protection legislation to
prevent 3rd party consumables from fairly competing in the marketplace.

There is a long overdue need for change.

Art
 
Your points are well taken.

The one comment you've made that I will take issue with is this:
Once again, this would be like the
automakers putting a gas tank in their cars that requires the use of
their branded gasoline nozzle at corporate owned gas stations. Then
pricing the gas at ten times its market value.

I believe this already exists and is called being an "oil company" ;-)

Art
 
While no experience with G&G for HP, I did try G&G for Canon. The G&G
cyan ink was so far off in color that I could not get a decent print
with it. The G&G ink faded about 25 times faster than Canon in my
accelerated UV test.
 
Arthur said:
Your points are well taken.

The one comment you've made that I will take issue with is this:


I believe this already exists and is called being an "oil company" ;-)

You have a point. At least gas prices are going down here in the
Northern Virginia area. I actually paid under $2.40/gallon the other
day. OEM ink prices, on the other hand, appear to be immune to market
forces. ;)
 
Arthur said:
I could not agree with you more, and I think that if the public were
to lobby their elected officials and stress that the actions taken by
the printer manufacturers is a violation of the antitrust legislation
of the US (Sherman, Clayton and other acts) which for years protected
the public from just such actions, we might turn this situation around.

The decisions being reached in the Courts have been based upon patent
violations, but the real issue is not intellectual or material rights
protection, but that the printer manufacturers are requiring certain
branded consumables be used with their products, a type of tying that
is illegal in contracts under the antitrust acts.


The printer mfg are not requiring anything. What should be required on
all websites is that the advertisement or description should require
that the generic be branded with the formulator name. Then you could
see which of the relabelers sell xyzink and then you would be able to
tell more easily what a fair price is for that and you could soon
determine if that brand was either good or bad. It would be easy if you
had trouble with that brand not go to to another relabeler and buy the
same clogging material under a disguised name.
Indeed, it could be argued that many of the so-called features
integrated into ink and toner cartridges have no real purpose other
than to place patented technologies into them which the printers are
designed to require in order to work with the cartridges.


A mfg can designe their product any way they want. They do not have to
design a product to be easy for a relabeler to ruin their machine. Let
the relabelers be innovative and produce innovative quality stuff. Then
the price would rise but would be less money than OEM. Since their
would (in this case) be quality ink around at cheaper prices then the
OEM would drop their prices and all would benefit except the
fundamentalists.
Then, the manufacturers sue 3rd party manufacturers of the
consumables using the power of the patent law to claim infringement,


And they have a right to do just that.
when the only reason the patented design is used in the 3rd party
product is because the printer checks for it and will not work without
it. It could easily be argued that some of these patented systems
actually harm the printing experience and lessen the functionality of
the printer


They certainly do not
, or make reuse or refilling of the cartridges difficult or impossible.

Hooray


Until a large enough constituency is formed to lobby and demand of
their legislators that this situation is corrected,


They should demand full disclosure
 
Arthur said:
I could not agree with you more, and I think that if the public were to
lobby their elected officials and stress that the actions taken by the
printer manufacturers is a violation of the antitrust legislation of the
US (Sherman, Clayton and other acts) which for years protected the
public from just such actions, we might turn this situation around.
....

Thanks for a great reply, Arthur. You expanded on my post perfectly with
great logic. Unfortunately, I don't think that the lobbying effort will
produce much benefit until after November 11. Until then, I believe that
the bad guys have bigger, stronger lobbyists than we do...

More people drive cars than drive printers. And, aware of the feelings
of their constitents, what has congress done to help? On the other hand,
your points about the direct violations in this case are well-taken.

Meanwhile, I will continue to use my "obsolete" HP inkjet printers with
confidence and aftermarket ink. If I want snapshots, I'll take the files
to Costco, where, using a conventional hybrid technology, I'll get
satisfactory prints that will have decent fade resistance for 19 cents each.

Richard
 
Arthur said:
I could not agree with you more, and I think that if the public were to
lobby their elected officials and stress that the actions taken by the
printer manufacturers is a violation of the antitrust legislation of the
US (Sherman, Clayton and other acts) which for years protected the
public from just such actions, we might turn this situation around.

The decisions being reached in the Courts have been based upon patent
violations, but the real issue is not intellectual or material rights
protection, but that the printer manufacturers are requiring certain
branded consumables be used with their products, a type of tying that is
illegal in contracts under the antitrust acts.

Indeed, it could be argued that many of the so-called features
integrated into ink and toner cartridges have no real purpose other than
to place patented technologies into them which the printers are designed
to require in order to work with the cartridges. Then, the
manufacturers sue 3rd party manufacturers of the consumables using the
power of the patent law to claim infringement, when the only reason the
patented design is used in the 3rd party product is because the printer
checks for it and will not work without it. It could easily be argued
that some of these patented systems actually harm the printing
experience and lessen the functionality of the printer, or make reuse or
refilling of the cartridges difficult or impossible.

Until a large enough constituency is formed to lobby and demand of their
legislators that this situation is corrected, for a myriad of reasons,
including environmental, economic, and, as I stated, functionality,
these companies will continue to use patent protection legislation to
prevent 3rd party consumables from fairly competing in the marketplace.

There is a long overdue need for change.

Art

That is a great post - thanks.
 
I tend to agree that printer consumables probably won't play a big roll
in the political battles of the next few months, and in fairness, there
are much bigger issues at stake.

I am biting my tongue right now, because there are numerous non-printer
issues that are infuriating me, particularly as a Canadian, but I am
trying to keep them in their place.

Art
 
Nice to hear an intelligent cancer researcher's career was diverted to
now working for HP as an ink tester looking for patent infringements.

All mankind should be grateful, don't you think.... ;-)

Art

As a retired researcher in the chemical industry, many corporations
find patents to be counter productive. They force one to reveal their
ingredients. Sometimes it's better to keep these facts secret! Known
as "trade secrets".

Olin
 
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