How to back up windows 2K/XP to change NTFS cluster size

  • Thread starter Thread starter H. Debs
  • Start date Start date
H

H. Debs

After working for a week reinstalling everything Win2K and all my apps
(hard disk change problem mentioned in another post), I discovered
that Win2K had graciously allotted me with NTFS clusters of 512 bytes.
Should be easy to change to the more efficient 4096 bytes right?
Luckily I made a Ghost image before I tried PowerQuest Partition Magic
8.01 (the ltest version to my knowledge) to change the cluster size (I
booted into another Win2K installation and ran PM from there, of
course). PM failed miserably on my 20GB partition (a drive letter in
an extended partition). After moving all the data around for 30min,
out pops a little error message: "Too many clusters!" Couldn't they
have figured that out before starting?
So I thought, I'll reformat the partition with 4K clustes, then apply
my Ghost image onto it and it'll be perfect! Wrong. Ghost gave me
the data alright (I hope), but the cluster size went back to 512.

What's the solution to this?

Can't I just copy all the files somewhere else, reformat the
partition, then copy them back? Will I break anything? What?
Can I use the internal backup tool to backup the whole partition,
reformat, then restore it? Will that break anything? What?

Thanks a million...

Habib
 
Sounds like this was a conversion. http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=140365

--

Regards,

Dave Patrick ....Please no email replies - reply in newsgroup.
Microsoft Certified Professional
Microsoft MVP [Windows]
http://www.microsoft.com/protect

:
| After working for a week reinstalling everything Win2K and all my apps
| (hard disk change problem mentioned in another post), I discovered
| that Win2K had graciously allotted me with NTFS clusters of 512 bytes.
| Should be easy to change to the more efficient 4096 bytes right?
| Luckily I made a Ghost image before I tried PowerQuest Partition Magic
| 8.01 (the ltest version to my knowledge) to change the cluster size (I
| booted into another Win2K installation and ran PM from there, of
| course). PM failed miserably on my 20GB partition (a drive letter in
| an extended partition). After moving all the data around for 30min,
| out pops a little error message: "Too many clusters!" Couldn't they
| have figured that out before starting?
| So I thought, I'll reformat the partition with 4K clustes, then apply
| my Ghost image onto it and it'll be perfect! Wrong. Ghost gave me
| the data alright (I hope), but the cluster size went back to 512.
|
| What's the solution to this?
|
| Can't I just copy all the files somewhere else, reformat the
| partition, then copy them back? Will I break anything? What?
| Can I use the internal backup tool to backup the whole partition,
| reformat, then restore it? Will that break anything? What?
|
| Thanks a million...
|
| Habib
|
|
 
H. Debs said:
After working for a week reinstalling everything Win2K and all my apps
(hard disk change problem mentioned in another post), I discovered
that Win2K had graciously allotted me with NTFS clusters of 512 bytes.
Should be easy to change to the more efficient 4096 bytes right?
Luckily I made a Ghost image before I tried PowerQuest Partition Magic
8.01 (the ltest version to my knowledge) to change the cluster size (I
booted into another Win2K installation and ran PM from there, of
course). PM failed miserably on my 20GB partition (a drive letter in
an extended partition). After moving all the data around for 30min,
out pops a little error message: "Too many clusters!" Couldn't they
have figured that out before starting?
So I thought, I'll reformat the partition with 4K clustes, then apply
my Ghost image onto it and it'll be perfect! Wrong. Ghost gave me
the data alright (I hope), but the cluster size went back to 512.

What's the solution to this?

Can't I just copy all the files somewhere else, reformat the
partition, then copy them back? Will I break anything? What?
Can I use the internal backup tool to backup the whole partition,
reformat, then restore it? Will that break anything? What?

Thanks a million...

Habib

I used to use partition managers and imaging tools a lot but
lately I have returned to simple utilities that give me far more
control over things. In your case I would do this:

1. Connect a spare disk as a slave disk.
2. Create a formatted NTFS partition on it of sufficient size.
3. Boot the machine with a Bart PE boot disk, then use
xcopy.exe or xxcopy.exe with the appropriate switches
to copy the current installation to the spare disk, including
system files, hidden files, permissions and attributes.
4. Boot the machine with the spare disk to ensure that
everything is there.
5. Temporarily install the original disk in some other machine
and create a partition with the desired cluster size. Maybe
Bart can do this too - I don't know.
6. Reverse Step 3.

To create a Bart PE boot disk (http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/#download)
takes a fair amount of time but I think it's well worth it.
It is a terrific tool!
 
Pegasus (MVP) said:
I used to use partition managers and imaging tools a lot but
lately I have returned to simple utilities that give me far more
control over things. In your case I would do this:

1. Connect a spare disk as a slave disk.
2. Create a formatted NTFS partition on it of sufficient size.
3. Boot the machine with a Bart PE boot disk, then use
xcopy.exe or xxcopy.exe with the appropriate switches
to copy the current installation to the spare disk, including
system files, hidden files, permissions and attributes.
4. Boot the machine with the spare disk to ensure that
everything is there.
5. Temporarily install the original disk in some other machine
and create a partition with the desired cluster size. Maybe
Bart can do this too - I don't know.
6. Reverse Step 3.

To create a Bart PE boot disk (http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/#download)
takes a fair amount of time but I think it's well worth it.
It is a terrific tool!

Hi Pegasus,

My system already has enough space to store the data 20 times over.
And I can boot to an extra Win2K installation I created just for
things like this, plus I can boot to MSDOS 7.1 (from Win98SE).
So my question is:
Can I boot to my spare Win2K partition, copy the files over to some
free space on another partition, reformat with 4K clusters, then copy
the files back? Isn't that the same as what you're describing, or does
the xcopy command of Bart PE have any special purpose which the Win2K
copy will not accomplish?


What I'm also worried about is that I don't know if I'll break
anything with a simple copy-format-copyback procedure. In all your
wisdom and experience :) are you really sure the resulting
installation will be perfect? Can the backup tool (that comes with
windows) be a more sure way to do this copying (perhaps it sets up
some extra things over and above the mere copying)?


Thanks.

Habib
 
Dave Patrick said:

Yes and No. It was a brand new disk, and I just happened to format
that partition with FAT32 before the fresh install. But it was totally
empty, and when setup offered to convert it to NTFS, I said, Yeah,
thanks! (Not knowing it would give me 3rd class service...)

Thanks anyway.

Habib
 
H. Debs said:
Hi Pegasus,

My system already has enough space to store the data 20 times over.
And I can boot to an extra Win2K installation I created just for
things like this, plus I can boot to MSDOS 7.1 (from Win98SE).
So my question is:
Can I boot to my spare Win2K partition, copy the files over to some
free space on another partition, reformat with 4K clusters, then copy
the files back? Isn't that the same as what you're describing, or does
the xcopy command of Bart PE have any special purpose which the Win2K
copy will not accomplish?


What I'm also worried about is that I don't know if I'll break
anything with a simple copy-format-copyback procedure. In all your
wisdom and experience :) are you really sure the resulting
installation will be perfect? Can the backup tool (that comes with
windows) be a more sure way to do this copying (perhaps it sets up
some extra things over and above the mere copying)?


Thanks.

Habib

This very morning I copied a whole server disk with my
method, including the OS, Exchange etc. It works perfectly
well, provided that

a) You make sure to copy everything (as mentioned in
my first reply), and
b) You perform the copy action while Windows is not active.

Condition b) can be met in one of two ways:
1. You boot the machine with a Bart PE CD, or
2. You perform the copy action from a different Windows
installation.

Think of it as open heart surgery: You cannot operate on
your heart but your surgeon can, provided that he first
knocks you out.
 
Pegasus (MVP) said:
This very morning I copied a whole server disk with my
method, including the OS, Exchange etc. It works perfectly
well, provided that

a) You make sure to copy everything (as mentioned in
my first reply), and
b) You perform the copy action while Windows is not active.

Condition b) can be met in one of two ways:
1. You boot the machine with a Bart PE CD, or
2. You perform the copy action from a different Windows
installation.

Think of it as open heart surgery: You cannot operate on
your heart but your surgeon can, provided that he first
knocks you out.

I can boot into a separate Win2K installation. No problem.

I'm quoting you here again as this is the other condition you mention:

I'm assuming that doing the copying of *all* files, system, hidden or
otherwise, from that other Win2K install, will also copy the
*permissions* and attributes (that last one is evident I think). Am I
correct?


And regarding my other post, right after this one, have you used
sysprep to solve a hard disk change problem before? (It is supposed to
make WIndows run the Mini-setup on next boot, and cause it
re-enumerate all its hardware). Do you think this would correct my
"corrupt SYSTEM file" error due to change of hard disk and controller?

Thanks again, Pegasus!

Habib
 
H. Debs said:
I can boot into a separate Win2K installation. No problem.

I'm quoting you here again as this is the other condition you mention:


I'm assuming that doing the copying of *all* files, system, hidden or
otherwise, from that other Win2K install, will also copy the
*permissions* and attributes (that last one is evident I think). Am I
correct?

It depends on you selecting the correct switches for xcopy.exe.

And regarding my other post, right after this one, have you used
sysprep to solve a hard disk change problem before? (It is supposed to
make WIndows run the Mini-setup on next boot, and cause it
re-enumerate all its hardware). Do you think this would correct my
"corrupt SYSTEM file" error due to change of hard disk and controller?

No, I have not used it myself but I have seen posts from
other people using it. Check out the links that Dave Patrick
gave you.
 
Yes that's expected behavior. Better to choose NTFS during text mode portion
of setup.

To do a clean install, either boot the Windows 2000 install CD-Rom or setup
disks. The set of four install disks can be created from your Windows 2000
CD-Rom; change to the \bootdisk directory on the CD-Rom and execute
makeboot.exe (from dos) or makebt32.exe (from 32 bit) and follow the
prompts.

Setup inspects your computer's hardware configuration and then begins to
install the Setup and driver files. When the Windows 2000 Professional
screen appears, press ENTER to set up Windows 2000 Professional.

Read the license agreement, and then press the F8 key to accept the terms of
the license agreement and continue the installation.

When the Windows 2000 Professional Setup screen appears, all the existing
partitions and the unpartitioned spaces are listed for each physical hard
disk. Use the ARROW keys to select the partitions Press D to delete an
existing partition, If you press D to delete an existing partition, you must
then press L (or press ENTER, and then press L if it is the System
partition) to confirm that you want to delete the partition. Repeat this
step for each of the existing partitions When all the partitions are deleted
press F3 to exit setup, (to avoid unexpected drive letter assignments with
your new install) then restart the pc then when you get to this point in
setup again select the unpartitioned space, and then press C to create a new
partition and specify the size (if required). Windows will by default use
all available space.

Be sure to apply SP4 and these two below to your new install before
connecting to any network. Internet included. (sasser, msblast)
http://download.microsoft.com/download/E/6/A/E6A04295-D2A8-40D0-A0C5-241BFECD095E/W2KSP4_EN.EXE
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS03-043.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS03-049.mspx

Then

Rollup 1 for Microsoft Windows 2000 Service Pack 4
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...CF-8850-4531-B52B-BF28B324C662&displaylang=en

--

Regards,

Dave Patrick ....Please no email replies - reply in newsgroup.
Microsoft Certified Professional
Microsoft MVP [Windows]
http://www.microsoft.com/protect

:
| Yes and No. It was a brand new disk, and I just happened to format
| that partition with FAT32 before the fresh install. But it was totally
| empty, and when setup offered to convert it to NTFS, I said, Yeah,
| thanks! (Not knowing it would give me 3rd class service...)
|
| Thanks anyway.
|
| Habib
|
 
Pegasus (MVP) said:
It depends on you selecting the correct switches for xcopy.exe.

I was actually talking about a simple drag and drop copy from
Explorer. Or Ctr-C, Ctl-V (after revealing all hidden files and system
files, of course). I haven't used xcopy in ages. :)

OK, I'm assuming my answer is "yes". I'm going for it, as follows:

1) Boot from spare Win2K install on G:
2) Copy *all* files on E: to a spare partition.
3) Reformat E: as FAT32 using
OFORMAT E: /A:8
CVTAREA E:\mft.tmp 500 MB /contig /firstcluster 3 GB
CONVERT E: /fs:ntfs /cvtarea:mft.tmp
(this procedure to obtain contiguous MFT at the 3GB mark, outlined
here:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/winpreinst/ntfs-preinstall.mspx
4) Copy back all files to E:
and I should be done.



I'll let you know.

controller?

No, I have not used it myself but I have seen posts from
other people using it. Check out the links that Dave Patrick
gave you.

Thanks. I'll keep you posted.

Habib
 
Dave Patrick said:
Yes that's expected behavior. Better to choose NTFS during text mode portion
of setup.

I can't remember whether I launched the install from within another
Win2K installation. It's possible.

I definitely don't want to do a clean install now (I've been working
on one for 10 days), or ever again :)

One last question, Dave:

Microsoft speak of the efficiency of:
1) Having 4K NTFS clusters, instead of 512bytes
2) Having one contiguous MFT of 500MB positioned at around the 3GB
mark within the partition, if it is greater than 8GB.
The only method for how to do this, that I know of, is this one:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/winpreinst/ntfs-preinstall.mspx
which unfortunately relies on the two tools called cvtarea.exe and
convert.exe to insure the size, contiguity and positioning of the MFT.

Since this article is a bit outdated, are you aware of a method to get
this result without having to go via FAT32 ?

Thanks for the heads up on this. I've been bitten once already. :)
Luckily I don't install windows very often.


Thanks.

Habib
 
2.) No I wouldn't know how you would get to this point with going through a
lot of hoops. I doubt if, under normal circumstance, that the different
would be noticeable.

--

Regards,

Dave Patrick ....Please no email replies - reply in newsgroup.
Microsoft Certified Professional
Microsoft MVP [Windows]
http://www.microsoft.com/protect

:
| I can't remember whether I launched the install from within another
| Win2K installation. It's possible.
|
| I definitely don't want to do a clean install now (I've been working
| on one for 10 days), or ever again :)
|
| One last question, Dave:
|
| Microsoft speak of the efficiency of:
| 1) Having 4K NTFS clusters, instead of 512bytes
| 2) Having one contiguous MFT of 500MB positioned at around the 3GB
| mark within the partition, if it is greater than 8GB.
| The only method for how to do this, that I know of, is this one:
| http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/winpreinst/ntfs-preinstall.mspx
| which unfortunately relies on the two tools called cvtarea.exe and
| convert.exe to insure the size, contiguity and positioning of the MFT.
|
| Since this article is a bit outdated, are you aware of a method to get
| this result without having to go via FAT32 ?
|
| > Be sure to apply SP4 and these two below to your new install before
| > connecting to any network. Internet included. (sasser, msblast)
| >
|
http://download.microsoft.com/download/E/6/A/E6A04295-D2A8-40D0-A0C5-241BFECD095E/W2KSP4_EN.EXE
| > http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS03-043.mspx
| > http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS03-049.mspx
| >
| > Then
| >
| > Rollup 1 for Microsoft Windows 2000 Service Pack 4
| >
|
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...CF-8850-4531-B52B-BF28B324C662&displaylang=en
| >
|
| Thanks for the heads up on this. I've been bitten once already. :)
| Luckily I don't install windows very often.
|
|
| Thanks.
|
| Habib
|
 
H. Debs said:
I was actually talking about a simple drag and drop copy from
Explorer. Or Ctr-C, Ctl-V (after revealing all hidden files and system
files, of course). I haven't used xcopy in ages. :)
*** I do not think that dragging and dropping will do the trick.
*** Dragging and dropping is for ordinary users to whom
*** switches are a mystery. For this sort of operation you
*** need to be in full control.
OK, I'm assuming my answer is "yes". I'm going for it, as follows:

1) Boot from spare Win2K install on G:
*** Yes.
2) Copy *all* files on E: to a spare partition.
*** Including permissions.
3) Reformat E: as FAT32 using
OFORMAT E: /A:8
CVTAREA E:\mft.tmp 500 MB /contig /firstcluster 3 GB
CONVERT E: /fs:ntfs /cvtarea:mft.tmp
*** I have never heard of oformat or cvtarea.
*** I do not know if your selected cluster size
*** will survive conver.exe.
 
Ok, Pegasus, it worked just fine. Thanks a lot. :)

I'm writing this as a small guide to help others who have the same
problem.

So, how to convert an NTFS partition on which windows (2K or XP) is
installed, but which has been formatted with a cluster size of 512
bytes, into an NTFS partition with a different cluster size (4096
bytes for example). Or more generally, How to change the cluster size
of an NTFS partition.

I tried to use Norton Ghost 2003 to backup, reformat with the proper
cluster size, then restore, but Ghost works on such a low level that
it also restored my old cluster size. So here's another way.

Please read fully before you proceed.

Quick summary:

1) Boot into another Win32 partition. (Install another temporary
Win2K/XP on your system in another parition, it's worth it: much
faster disk access while doing all the copying than working from the
BartPE CD or the Recovery Console).
2) From that other partition, backup the entire partition you want to
change, copying all files, including system and hidden files and
including all file security attributes, using the simple xcopy
command. You MUST copy the files to another NTFS partition in order to
preserve their NTFS attributes. Use the following xcopy switches:
/h/e/x/o/k
(Note: You can encounter some difficulties during the copy. See
below.)
3) Reformat the partition with the cluster size you want
4) Restore all files, using xcopy also
See http://support.microsoft.com/kb/323007 on use of the xcopy
command.

So you need at least 2 NTFS partitions in your system: The one you
want to modify, and one in which you boot from while doing this, and
to which you backup the files. This 2nd partition should be big enough
to hold all that, or you can use a 3rd NTFS partition to copy the
files to.

Let's think a bit about risks of losing time or data:

1) This is not a "repair" situation where something is stopping you
from working. You just want to improve your working situation. If your
windows isn't working properly, this won't repair it. All this does is
change the NTFS cluster size, while everything else remains the same
(i.e. you do not add or remove disks, and you restore back to the same
partition).
2) You don't risk losing your data files, because you will copy all
files before your reformat. If you have doubts that your copy is not
identical to your original, you can always stop and not reformat.
Also, you can backup your data (work) files separately to tape, CD or
whatever you usually do.
3) All you risk is having to reinstall windows and your applications,
if the partition you want to change is the one on which you windows is
installed (which was my case). But since the only other way
(apparently) of changing the NFTS cluster size is to reformat and, in
this case, reinstall windows and all applications, you hopefully want
to change the cluster size badly enough to accept this risk and
possiblity. So be prepared. Make sure you have a windows install CD
ready (you'll most probably not need it).


Here's what I did:

A) I first booted into a different win2K install than the one I
wanted to back up, of course. (Didn't try booting to the Recovery
Console; should work too if it allows you to copy ALL folders and
files... bit more risky, so no, installing a temp windows is safer).


B) I backed up my whole NTFS drive E: (which is also where my windows
2000 is installed) to G:, also an NTFS partition (so as to preserve
all security settings), in a folder called ESAVE, by using the xcopy
command like so:

xcopy e:\*.* g:\esave\ /h /e /x /o /k

The one problem I encountered during the copy, was that it tried to
copy the "System Volume Information" folder, but failed (access
denied), so it aborted the copying, leaving the WINNT folder branch
uncopied.
One way to avoid this is to add the Administrators group to this
folder's security, giving them Full Control, before you start the
xcopy. That way xcopy will be able to copy it properly.

That folder mainly holds System Restore data in WinXP. I had Win2K,
and hadn't thought of giving the Admins authority on that folder, so
all I wanted was to finish my xcopy. Read this part if your case is
similar.

I had to find a ruse to make xcopy copy only the WINNT branch
*including* making it create the WINNT folder itself (to preserve
security attributes for that folder).

(For others who may be reading this and get the same problem:
The command: xcopy e:\winnt /h/e/x/o/k will not create a
destination folder called winnt, it'll copy the *contents* of winnt
into the current destination folder directly. If you specify the
destination folder on the command line (xcopy e:\winnt winnt\) a new
destination winnt folder will be created, but without the security
attributes of the original winnt folder. You're not *copying* the
original folder, you're creating a new one with default attributes.
So I created a dummy file "e:\winnttt.txt" and used the commands:
G:\ESAVE> xcopy e:\winnt*.* /h/e/x/o/k
G:\ESAVE> xcopy e:\winnt winnt /h/e/x/o/k
The first line created the destination winnt folder with the proper
attributes, and put some other stuff inside it, unimportant, since the
second line makes a perfect copy of the whole winnt folder. (Note, on
the first command, that I had moved (CD) into G:\ESAVE before
executing it)


C) xcopy also copied the hidden folder called RECYCLER, which was the
recycle bin of drive e:. I deleted that folder from my backup, since
windows automatically recreates it.


D) I then verified that the total number of files in the destination
was exactly equal to the total number of files in the source. I used a
tool called TreeSize to get the number of files, but there are other
ways: right click on a folder and click Properties, it will show you
the number of files in that folder and its subfolders. If you doing
this from the command prompt, you can use dir /s which also shows
the total files at the very end (dir e:\ /s then dir g:\esave /s )


E) I then used the *WinXP* format.exe command to reformat e:\ into an
NTFS volume with the new cluster size (the WinXP version organizes the
NTFS structures a bit more efficiently than the older Win2K format
command). I wanted a cluster size of 4096, so I used:
format e: /fs:ntfs /a:4096 /q


F) Finally, I copied back the files:
xcopy g:\esave\*.* e:\ /h/e/x/o/k

Then I rebooted into the "old" Windows, and everything worked
perfectly. :)



I'm quite sure the ntbackup.exe utility found in windows would have
done an equally good job. The only reason I didn't use it was that I
read this Microsoft article, which seems to say it is not enough to
just do a backup-format-restore:
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=249694

I also discovered the perfect way to fully defragment an NTFS
partition: Make a backup using Ghost 2003 (or Ghost 8), then restore
it right back. On restoring them, Ghost will defragment both the files
and the MFT, and will place the MFT (the part which can be moved) at
the recommended position in the partition (at the 3GB mark). At least
that's my experience. The nice thing is that it took only around 25
mins for the whole procedure (7.5 GB of data). And I have an old 1.7
GHz CPU. I'm quite positively certain that there is no defrag
software anywhere, which could have defragged 7.GB so thouroughly,
including MFT, in merely 30 min. Plus you get the added advantage of
having an image there, ready to be used if needed. Perfect.

As for the Oformat.exe/cvtarea.exe/convert.exe procedure I mentioned,
it's definitely not worth trying it: oformat.exe is a DOS 8 command
(you have to boot the DOS which came with WinME or WinXP, no earlier
version). Plus, given that the only advantage of this cvtarea
manoeuver was to place the MFT at the 3GB mark, which Ghost did
automatically without asking, the Ghost solution is defintely much
less hassle and gives better results.


Thanks very much for your help, Pegasus. I hope some others who read
this will be able to solve this problem quickly in the future.

Habib Debs
 
H. Debs said:
Ok, Pegasus, it worked just fine. Thanks a lot. :)

I'm writing this as a small guide to help others who have the same
problem.

So, how to convert an NTFS partition on which windows (2K or XP) is
installed, but which has been formatted with a cluster size of 512
bytes, into an NTFS partition with a different cluster size (4096
bytes for example). Or more generally, How to change the cluster size
of an NTFS partition.

I tried to use Norton Ghost 2003 to backup, reformat with the proper
cluster size, then restore, but Ghost works on such a low level that
it also restored my old cluster size. So here's another way.

Please read fully before you proceed.

Quick summary:

1) Boot into another Win32 partition. (Install another temporary
Win2K/XP on your system in another parition, it's worth it: much
faster disk access while doing all the copying than working from the
BartPE CD or the Recovery Console).
2) From that other partition, backup the entire partition you want to
change, copying all files, including system and hidden files and
including all file security attributes, using the simple xcopy
command. You MUST copy the files to another NTFS partition in order to
preserve their NTFS attributes. Use the following xcopy switches:
/h/e/x/o/k
(Note: You can encounter some difficulties during the copy. See
below.)
3) Reformat the partition with the cluster size you want
4) Restore all files, using xcopy also
See http://support.microsoft.com/kb/323007 on use of the xcopy
command.

So you need at least 2 NTFS partitions in your system: The one you
want to modify, and one in which you boot from while doing this, and
to which you backup the files. This 2nd partition should be big enough
to hold all that, or you can use a 3rd NTFS partition to copy the
files to.

Let's think a bit about risks of losing time or data:

1) This is not a "repair" situation where something is stopping you
from working. You just want to improve your working situation. If your
windows isn't working properly, this won't repair it. All this does is
change the NTFS cluster size, while everything else remains the same
(i.e. you do not add or remove disks, and you restore back to the same
partition).
2) You don't risk losing your data files, because you will copy all
files before your reformat. If you have doubts that your copy is not
identical to your original, you can always stop and not reformat.
Also, you can backup your data (work) files separately to tape, CD or
whatever you usually do.
3) All you risk is having to reinstall windows and your applications,
if the partition you want to change is the one on which you windows is
installed (which was my case). But since the only other way
(apparently) of changing the NFTS cluster size is to reformat and, in
this case, reinstall windows and all applications, you hopefully want
to change the cluster size badly enough to accept this risk and
possiblity. So be prepared. Make sure you have a windows install CD
ready (you'll most probably not need it).


Here's what I did:

A) I first booted into a different win2K install than the one I
wanted to back up, of course. (Didn't try booting to the Recovery
Console; should work too if it allows you to copy ALL folders and
files... bit more risky, so no, installing a temp windows is safer).


B) I backed up my whole NTFS drive E: (which is also where my windows
2000 is installed) to G:, also an NTFS partition (so as to preserve
all security settings), in a folder called ESAVE, by using the xcopy
command like so:

xcopy e:\*.* g:\esave\ /h /e /x /o /k

The one problem I encountered during the copy, was that it tried to
copy the "System Volume Information" folder, but failed (access
denied), so it aborted the copying, leaving the WINNT folder branch
uncopied.
One way to avoid this is to add the Administrators group to this
folder's security, giving them Full Control, before you start the
xcopy. That way xcopy will be able to copy it properly.

That folder mainly holds System Restore data in WinXP. I had Win2K,
and hadn't thought of giving the Admins authority on that folder, so
all I wanted was to finish my xcopy. Read this part if your case is
similar.

I had to find a ruse to make xcopy copy only the WINNT branch
*including* making it create the WINNT folder itself (to preserve
security attributes for that folder).

(For others who may be reading this and get the same problem:
The command: xcopy e:\winnt /h/e/x/o/k will not create a
destination folder called winnt, it'll copy the *contents* of winnt
into the current destination folder directly. If you specify the
destination folder on the command line (xcopy e:\winnt winnt\) a new
destination winnt folder will be created, but without the security
attributes of the original winnt folder. You're not *copying* the
original folder, you're creating a new one with default attributes.
So I created a dummy file "e:\winnttt.txt" and used the commands:
G:\ESAVE> xcopy e:\winnt*.* /h/e/x/o/k
G:\ESAVE> xcopy e:\winnt winnt /h/e/x/o/k
The first line created the destination winnt folder with the proper
attributes, and put some other stuff inside it, unimportant, since the
second line makes a perfect copy of the whole winnt folder. (Note, on
the first command, that I had moved (CD) into G:\ESAVE before
executing it)


C) xcopy also copied the hidden folder called RECYCLER, which was the
recycle bin of drive e:. I deleted that folder from my backup, since
windows automatically recreates it.


D) I then verified that the total number of files in the destination
was exactly equal to the total number of files in the source. I used a
tool called TreeSize to get the number of files, but there are other
ways: right click on a folder and click Properties, it will show you
the number of files in that folder and its subfolders. If you doing
this from the command prompt, you can use dir /s which also shows
the total files at the very end (dir e:\ /s then dir g:\esave /s )


E) I then used the *WinXP* format.exe command to reformat e:\ into an
NTFS volume with the new cluster size (the WinXP version organizes the
NTFS structures a bit more efficiently than the older Win2K format
command). I wanted a cluster size of 4096, so I used:
format e: /fs:ntfs /a:4096 /q


F) Finally, I copied back the files:
xcopy g:\esave\*.* e:\ /h/e/x/o/k

Then I rebooted into the "old" Windows, and everything worked
perfectly. :)



I'm quite sure the ntbackup.exe utility found in windows would have
done an equally good job. The only reason I didn't use it was that I
read this Microsoft article, which seems to say it is not enough to
just do a backup-format-restore:
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=249694

I also discovered the perfect way to fully defragment an NTFS
partition: Make a backup using Ghost 2003 (or Ghost 8), then restore
it right back. On restoring them, Ghost will defragment both the files
and the MFT, and will place the MFT (the part which can be moved) at
the recommended position in the partition (at the 3GB mark). At least
that's my experience. The nice thing is that it took only around 25
mins for the whole procedure (7.5 GB of data). And I have an old 1.7
GHz CPU. I'm quite positively certain that there is no defrag
software anywhere, which could have defragged 7.GB so thouroughly,
including MFT, in merely 30 min. Plus you get the added advantage of
having an image there, ready to be used if needed. Perfect.

As for the Oformat.exe/cvtarea.exe/convert.exe procedure I mentioned,
it's definitely not worth trying it: oformat.exe is a DOS 8 command
(you have to boot the DOS which came with WinME or WinXP, no earlier
version). Plus, given that the only advantage of this cvtarea
manoeuver was to place the MFT at the 3GB mark, which Ghost did
automatically without asking, the Ghost solution is defintely much
less hassle and gives better results.


Thanks very much for your help, Pegasus. I hope some others who read
this will be able to solve this problem quickly in the future.

Habib Debs

Thanks for the detailed feeedback.
 
Hi, Habib.

Congratulations! This was a very interesting and enlightening thread. You
did a great job with the help of Pegasus and Dave Patrick.

I'd like to add just a couple of comments.

Xcopy is an excellent tool. There are a number of switches available, in
addition to the ones you used:
xcopy e:\*.* g:\esave\ /h /e /x /o /k

My favorite line for copying an entire volume is:
xcopy c:\ x:\ /c /h /e /r /k

I barely recall where I learned that string of switches, but they work for
me.

/c continues copying, even if errors occur. This would have overcome your
failure to get the WinNT folder and System Volume Information files copied.
Of course, this can leave you with an uncopied file, but it has never caused
me a problem.

/h copies Hidden files and /k copies Attributes; we agree on these.

/e should recreate the source directory structure on the destination drive,
as well as copying their contents.

Xcopy, like the regular Copy command, is not an all-or-nothing situation.
You can use filenames and pathnames to specify which files and folders to
copy, and where to put them. Even after the failure to copy the SVI, you
should have been able to copy the entire WinNT folder with this line:
xcopy c:\WinNT g:\g:\esave\WinNT /c /h /e /r /k

/r overwrites read-only files. I guess it's only habit that makes me
include this one, especially when copying to an empty destination.

I'm a one-man, one-computer kind of guy with no net but the Internet and
nobody here but me, so I'm not at all familiar with permissions, file
ownership, and things like that. So I know nothing of /o, /x, etc. As I'm
sure you know, typing xcopy /? will get a list of all the switches available
and a brief explanation of their function.

You may be able to speed up the operation considerably by excluding or
deleting some files before running Xcopy. The page file need not be copied;
like RECYCLER, it will simply be recreated next time Win2K is run. This
would be a good time to delete TEMP files. And fire up IE, click Tools |
Internet Options and use the General tab to delete the Temporary Internet
Files (if they are on the volume you plan to back up - and they usually
are).

In addition to giving us more control than the GUI drag'n'drop method, it
seems to me that Xcopy.exe from a Command Prompt is usually faster, too.

RC
 
Sorry! One too many g:'s, obviously... Not
xcopy c:\WinNT g:\g:\esave\WinNT /c /h /e /r /k

but
xcopy c:\WinNT g:\esave\WinNT /c /h /e /r /k

RC
 
In
H. Debs said:
After working for a week reinstalling everything Win2K and all my apps
(hard disk change problem mentioned in another post), I discovered
that Win2K had graciously allotted me with NTFS clusters of 512 bytes.
Should be easy to change to the more efficient 4096 bytes right?
Luckily I made a Ghost image before I tried PowerQuest Partition Magic
8.01 (the ltest version to my knowledge) to change the cluster size (I
booted into another Win2K installation and ran PM from there, of
course). PM failed miserably on my 20GB partition (a drive letter in
an extended partition). After moving all the data around for 30min,
out pops a little error message: "Too many clusters!" Couldn't they
have figured that out before starting?

Been there. Done that. Also had a ghost to save my butt. Returned PM for a
refund because that (converting NTFS cluster size) was the reason I bought
it. In case you are wondering VCOM System Commander fails in a similarly
spectacular way.
So I thought, I'll reformat the partition with 4K clustes, then apply
my Ghost image onto it and it'll be perfect! Wrong. Ghost gave me
the data alright (I hope), but the cluster size went back to 512.

Yup. Ghost restores the image.
What's the solution to this?

Got this tip from Jerold Schulman (of JSI, Inc.) when I posted an almost
identical question last summer:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
If you don't have another disk partition, add an inexpensive 40 GB drive.
Install Windows 2000 on the new drive.
Ammend the c:\boot.ini startup options to rename the new install as
alternate or emergency and change the default back to the 1st install.
Boot the alternate install and use ntbackup to backup the C: drive to the
alternate installs partition.
Format the C: drive.
Restore the backup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Latest perhaps, but pretty old nonetheless. I don't think its been
changed since it became a Norton product. I've always been very iffy
about messing with the latest NTFS (6?) version with it.

Don't think this is relevant to your case and perhaps its paranoiia on
my part but I've never trusted PM (et al) from within windows. Always do
it from a dos boot (from a cd).
 
In
Sid Knee said:
Don't think this is relevant to your case and perhaps its paranoiia on
my part but I've never trusted PM (et al) from within windows. Always
do it from a dos boot (from a cd).

PM 8 lets you make a boot diskette, and if run from windws, it won't mess
with the partition from which it's running. The OP's problem is that
changing NTFS cluster size on the fly is a really risky operation. I've had
the engineers at either VCOM (who sells a similar partition management
product) or Symantec -- can't remember which -- tell me, "Sometimes it
doesn't work." OK, "Other than THAT, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the
play?"

Having a fresh Ghost image is like saving your game right before you drink
the mysterious red liquid...
 
Back
Top