How does a computer know what model it is????

[Guest]

I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent in the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait time may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are identical - the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't so I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question is does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for me to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route may be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[mikeyhsd]

you might be able to do it, but you cannot authenticate with microsoft as the key would be in use on your parents computer.



(e-mail address removed)



I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent in the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait time may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are identical - the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't so I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question is does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for me to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route may be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[Richard Urban]

First, almost every HP computer comes with a hidden recovery partition on
the hard drive. This is used in conjunction with the recovery CD to bring
the system back to as it was when shipped. Your recovery partition is
different than your parents.

Second, if you have 2 different model numbers the computers are NOT
identical.


--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

 

[Dustin Harper]

Sure, it should work. You would need a separate Vista product key for yours
(which it sounds like you don't).

Also, as the models are different, there may be small variences in the
hardware that may make it not work correctly. But, Vista should install
fine, after that it's a different story.

It's going to be a gamble, but if you are set on it: make a good backup!

 

[Chad Harris]

Hi Bonnie--

You can't use an HP or any other OEM recovery CD to make Vista via the
upgrade mechanism.

It's also important to realize the limitations of a recovery CD for XP or
DVD for Vista.. It almost nevrer works to recover Vista or XP.

I am guessing that your program is this one or one very similar from HP:

HP Express Upgrade to Windows Vistaâ„¢
http://h20219.www2.hp.com/services/cache/424812-0-0-225-121.html

There's no excuse for this long delay, but it's an accurate index of MSFT
and HP's total disregard and non concern for their customers.

In the future, I hope you will realize that a recovery CD oftendoes not
work. I wouldn't use it as a frisbee for a dog and most of them are
unsuccessful.

HP and almost every other of the 300 OEM named partners succumb to MSFT's
forcing them to sign a contract they will not ship a genuine OS CD or DVD in
the case of Vista because of pure, unadulterated greed that is only equalled
by the total disdain for their end user customer base.

The man responsible for this is Scott Di Valerio an accountant that they
have made the Head of their OEM program who has no background in computer
science and it shows.

I would love to debate this with anyone from MSFT like Darrell Gorter or
Jill Zoeller or Vinny Flint, but these people are afraid enough of the MSFT
business arm to remain mum--but they realize precisely how MSFT screws the
major end users purchasers of Vista, the OEM customers because they don't
have the panoply of repair tools on a Vista DVD in Win RE.

Good luck,

CH

 

[Chad Harris]

Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and multimillion
dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their platinum partner
MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on their preinstall desktops
and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but of course all of those icons can
be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme greed.
MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista for which
MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars for every
preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer seller and MSFT
sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the customer off because they
deny the customer the recovery tools to repair a Vista that is broken and
won't boot--the panoply of tools MSFT Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was critically
ill when you were told that life support services are limited, and if your
family member had a cardiac or respiratory arrest that no CPR efforts or
meds would be availalbe to that patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family will be
checking their relative into a hospital under such circumstances? The
Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You can bet your start button
they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to repair
Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail for months
on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be able to fix a No
Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including 4 shots at system
restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option, but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better sales
than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do this. They
never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on this group are quick to
tout recovery discs and recovery partitons but in hundreds of trials with
their customers, I have proved the recovery discs and partitions almost
never work, and the genuine OS CDs (XP) and DVDs (Vista) do and the MSFT
shills know this or else are too inexperienced with actual repairs of no
boots to understand it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to prevent a new
PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the most common way Vista
gets into a home or small business) from receiving the Vista DVD or XP CD
during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S. consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next month. In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers receiving
the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every new
Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's deliberate and cynical
denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't Dell, and I
challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members try
to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area you work
on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or Dan Stevenson
(lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at MSFT) or Jill
Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File and Storage Services
Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable tools for their
customers--that could cause their non-backed up customers to have to format
and loose all their documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible and
displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend on PC
purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small businesses.

CH
__________

 

[cvp]

Where on earth did you get the notion that "MSFT is paid somewhere between
one and two hundred dollars for every preinstalled Vista sold."?

Even a one-mam shop could get a better break. You're an order of magnitude
out.

Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and multimillion
dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their platinum partner
MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on their preinstall
desktops and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but of course all of
those icons can be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme greed.
MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista for which
MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars for every
preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer seller and MSFT
sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the customer off because they
deny the customer the recovery tools to repair a Vista that is broken and
won't boot--the panoply of tools MSFT Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was critically
ill when you were told that life support services are limited, and if your
family member had a cardiac or respiratory arrest that no CPR efforts or
meds would be availalbe to that patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family will be
checking their relative into a hospital under such circumstances? The
Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You can bet your start
button they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail for
months on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be able to
fix a No Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including 4 shots at
system restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option, but you may
not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better sales
than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do this.
They never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on this group are quick
to tout recovery discs and recovery partitons but in hundreds of trials
with their customers, I have proved the recovery discs and partitions
almost never work, and the genuine OS CDs (XP) and DVDs (Vista) do and the
MSFT shills know this or else are too inexperienced with actual repairs of
no boots to understand it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to prevent a
new PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the most common way
Vista gets into a home or small business) from receiving the Vista DVD or
XP CD during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I
mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S. consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next month.
In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every new
Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's deliberate and cynical
denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't Dell, and I
challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members
try to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area you
work on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or Dan
Stevenson (lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at MSFT)
or Jill Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File and
Storage Services Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable tools
for their customers--that could cause their non-backed up customers to
have to format and loose all their documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible and
displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend on PC
purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small businesses.

CH
__________

I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent in
the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait time
may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed
operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are identical -
the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't so
I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question is
does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for me
to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my
parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the
required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route may be
a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[Chad Harris]

It should have read to "MSFT" chagrin not shagrin. Sorry for the spelling
error. But for all the propaganda and hundreds of millions spent promoting
Vista with Wagner Edstrom and McCann Ericson Worldwide ad agencies on media
buys on TV and full page adds in major newspapers, a fraction of this money
could have gone to insure that every end user customer got a Vista DVD and
became "empowered" to use a hackneyed overused '90's word to fix Vista.
MSFT has left their customers high and dry, up a creek, and in a lurch in
respect to fixing Vista because they have denied them the Repair Environment
that can only be found on the DVD unless you are part of an entperprise and
MSFT has given you a way to install Win RE.

MSFT knows well that their hundreds of millions of end users have no
enterprise access because they do not work for an enterprise. Not everyone
works for an enterprise or large company. Not everyone works for a mid-sized
company. Many Vista users like the children of Jim Allchin and Bill Gates
and millions of others are kids.

MSFT refuses to discuss their denial of Vista DVDs or XP DVDs to their
customers the last several years.

One thing is clear. Retail sales of XP CDs and Vista DVDs have been down
20% for several quaters of the last couple fiscal years, but OEM preinstall
sales have been up 20% for that same period according to MSFT's quaterly
financial reports that are always delivered in meetings where Ballmer
invites investment house analysts. This is one incentive that drives MSFT's
greed that hoses their customers and prevents them from fixing XP and Vista.

CH

 

[Chad Harris]

I got the "notion" from published reports and I can find a letter from one
of the people at the top at MSFT years ago (Eric Rudder who is currently
Senior VP Technical Strategy) that touted this figure when he wrote Warren
Buffet years ago to try to get him to invest in MSFT. Maybe it's more
now. It ain't less. I didn't see you offer a figure since you were
questioning mine--and what an oversight since you brought it up. My point
remains they are losing 20% on retail sales every quarter and gaining 20% on
OEM preinstalled sales and I know that's dead on from their financial
reports.

Do you have anything substantive to say about why and how MSFT screws their
customers out of the Vista DVD (Win RE) or XP CD (repair install) that both
contain the most powerful tools to repair a no boot XP or Vista?

CH

Where on earth did you get the notion that "MSFT is paid somewhere between
one and two hundred dollars for every preinstalled Vista sold."?

Even a one-mam shop could get a better break. You're an order of magnitude
out.

Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and multimillion
dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their platinum partner
MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on their preinstall
desktops and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but of course all of
those icons can be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme
greed. MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista for
which MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars for
every preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer seller
and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the customer off
because they deny the customer the recovery tools to repair a Vista that
is broken and won't boot--the panoply of tools MSFT Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was
critically ill when you were told that life support services are limited,
and if your family member had a cardiac or respiratory arrest that no CPR
efforts or meds would be availalbe to that patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family will be
checking their relative into a hospital under such circumstances? The
Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You can bet your start
button they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail
for months on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be able
to fix a No Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including 4
shots at system restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option, but
you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better sales
than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do this.
They never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on this group are
quick to tout recovery discs and recovery partitons but in hundreds of
trials with their customers, I have proved the recovery discs and
partitions almost never work, and the genuine OS CDs (XP) and DVDs
(Vista) do and the MSFT shills know this or else are too inexperienced
with actual repairs of no boots to understand it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to prevent a
new PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the most common
way Vista gets into a home or small business) from receiving the Vista
DVD or XP CD during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I
mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S. consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next month.
In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every
new Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's deliberate and
cynical denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't
Dell, and I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this
nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members
try to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area you
work on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or Dan
Stevenson (lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at MSFT)
or Jill Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File and
Storage Services Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable tools
for their customers--that could cause their non-backed up customers to
have to format and loose all their documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible and
displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend on PC
purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small businesses.

CH
__________

I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent in
the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait time
may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed
operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are identical -
the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't so
I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question is
does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for me
to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my
parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the
required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route may
be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[cvp]

First I'll state that I do not know a figure for Vista. I do know the figure
for XP but since it is company confidential info I am not permitted to
reveal it. I do not expectVista to be out of line. I'll leave it at "an
order of magnitude out". Microsoft has a different business model for retail
boxes.

On the issue of providing recovery tools, it's each OEM's decision how to
provide those: simple recovery partition, advanced recovery partition or
CD/DVD. I don't see this as "MSFT screws their customers".

I got the "notion" from published reports and I can find a letter from one
of the people at the top at MSFT years ago (Eric Rudder who is currently
Senior VP Technical Strategy) that touted this figure when he wrote Warren
Buffet years ago to try to get him to invest in MSFT. Maybe it's more
now. It ain't less. I didn't see you offer a figure since you were
questioning mine--and what an oversight since you brought it up. My point
remains they are losing 20% on retail sales every quarter and gaining 20%
on OEM preinstalled sales and I know that's dead on from their financial
reports.

Do you have anything substantive to say about why and how MSFT screws
their customers out of the Vista DVD (Win RE) or XP CD (repair install)
that both contain the most powerful tools to repair a no boot XP or Vista?

CH

Where on earth did you get the notion that "MSFT is paid somewhere
between one and two hundred dollars for every preinstalled Vista sold."?

Even a one-mam shop could get a better break. You're an order of
magnitude out.

Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and multimillion
dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their platinum partner
MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on their preinstall
desktops and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but of course all of
those icons can be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme
greed. MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista
for which MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars for
every preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer seller
and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the customer off
because they deny the customer the recovery tools to repair a Vista that
is broken and won't boot--the panoply of tools MSFT Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was
critically ill when you were told that life support services are
limited, and if your family member had a cardiac or respiratory arrest
that no CPR efforts or meds would be availalbe to that patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family will
be checking their relative into a hospital under such circumstances?
The Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You can bet your
start button they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail
for months on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be
able to fix a No Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including
4 shots at system restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option,
but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better sales
than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do this.
They never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on this group are
quick to tout recovery discs and recovery partitons but in hundreds of
trials with their customers, I have proved the recovery discs and
partitions almost never work, and the genuine OS CDs (XP) and DVDs
(Vista) do and the MSFT shills know this or else are too inexperienced
with actual repairs of no boots to understand it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to prevent a
new PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the most common
way Vista gets into a home or small business) from receiving the Vista
DVD or XP CD during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote
this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I
mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been
in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S.
consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an
operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next month.
In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every
new Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's deliberate and
cynical denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't
Dell, and I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this
nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members
try to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area you
work on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or Dan
Stevenson (lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at
MSFT) or Jill Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File
and Storage Services Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable
tools for their customers--that could cause their non-backed up
customers to have to format and loose all their documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible and
displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend on PC
purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small businesses.

CH
__________
I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent in
the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait
time may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were
purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed
operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are identical -
the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't
so I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question is
does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for
me to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my
parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the
required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route may
be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install
vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[Chad Harris]

You are looking on the surface CVP. In fact, an OEM system builder--the
little guys who --work hard --are forced to provide Vista DVDs and XP CDs to
their customers. The big guys are not. They are forced (it's not their
decision--lol duh--why in the hell do you think that only Dell out of 300
"big guys" i.e. OEM named partners is providing a Vista DVD with new pcs?
It's because of a long time policy of OEM VP Scott Di Valerio to force the
300 OEM named partners to sign a contract that they will not ship an XP CD
or now a Vista DVD to the major population of MSFT end users--the pc buyer.

Additionally PCs are approximately 97% + of the boxes sold that are
computers, and this figure goes up for mobile devices.

My point is that when you are recovering an XP no boot one of the easiest
and most reliable by far ways to do it is with a repair install.

When you are recovering Vista Win RE and a repair install are also crucial.

F8 Win Advanced Options may work, but few people are smart enough to know
that they need to try all five of them, because you may get access to
Windows via one Safe Mode and not to another.

To snidely state as many MSFT syncophants do on this group *that the OEMs
aren't required to provide an OS DVD is to skirt the problem. The problem
is that MSFT creates recovery tools that are never delivered to nearly 100%
of their millions of end users because they are foolish enough to pay
thousands of dollars to an OEM named partner for a new PC and don't think
about the fact they are being kept from using Win RE in Vista or doing a
repair install in either XP or Vista because they do not have the CD (XP) or
DVD (Vista) that has the code to do it.

When you have tried to help nearly a thousand people repair XP or Vista,
many who don't have the DVD, you'll get the message and see why I'm so
concerned.

It is also one topic I can guarantee no Softie --that'd be the girls and
boys who type [MSFT] behind their name who venture onto these groups will
say a word. They feel guilty about it and haven't had the cojonas (male or
female version) to stand up to the business types at MSFT and demand the
quality of delivering these repair tools to their millions of end user
customers who get Vista and XP pre-loaded on their PCs.

It's a major screwup by MSFT and the OEM named partners born of greed---and
Scott Di Valerio is responsible for screwing MSFT's customers in a major
way.

This doesn't become important until Billy Bobb end user tries to repair a
blue screen from which he cannot boot. Time wise, we will begin to see
exponentially more of these problems in a few months, and they will all not
have a Vista DVD available to use its recovery environment thanks to MSFT
and the OEMs and their collective greed.

CH

CH

First I'll state that I do not know a figure for Vista. I do know the
figure for XP but since it is company confidential info I am not permitted
to reveal it. I do not expectVista to be out of line. I'll leave it at "an
order of magnitude out". Microsoft has a different business model for
retail boxes.

On the issue of providing recovery tools, it's each OEM's decision how to
provide those: simple recovery partition, advanced recovery partition or
CD/DVD. I don't see this as "MSFT screws their customers".

I got the "notion" from published reports and I can find a letter from one
of the people at the top at MSFT years ago (Eric Rudder who is currently
Senior VP Technical Strategy) that touted this figure when he wrote
Warren Buffet years ago to try to get him to invest in MSFT. Maybe it's
more now. It ain't less. I didn't see you offer a figure since you were
questioning mine--and what an oversight since you brought it up. My point
remains they are losing 20% on retail sales every quarter and gaining 20%
on OEM preinstalled sales and I know that's dead on from their financial
reports.

Do you have anything substantive to say about why and how MSFT screws
their customers out of the Vista DVD (Win RE) or XP CD (repair install)
that both contain the most powerful tools to repair a no boot XP or
Vista?

CH

Where on earth did you get the notion that "MSFT is paid somewhere
between one and two hundred dollars for every preinstalled Vista sold."?

Even a one-mam shop could get a better break. You're an order of
magnitude out.

"Chad Harris" <vistaneedsmuchowork.net> wrote in message
Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and
multimillion dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their
platinum partner MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on
their preinstall desktops and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but
of course all of those icons can be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme
greed. MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista
for which MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars
for every preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer
seller and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the
customer off because they deny the customer the recovery tools to
repair a Vista that is broken and won't boot--the panoply of tools MSFT
Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was
critically ill when you were told that life support services are
limited, and if your family member had a cardiac or respiratory arrest
that no CPR efforts or meds would be availalbe to that patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family will
be checking their relative into a hospital under such circumstances?
The Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You can bet your
start button they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail
for months on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be
able to fix a No Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including
4 shots at system restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option,
but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better
sales than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do
this. They never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on this group
are quick to tout recovery discs and recovery partitons but in hundreds
of trials with their customers, I have proved the recovery discs and
partitions almost never work, and the genuine OS CDs (XP) and DVDs
(Vista) do and the MSFT shills know this or else are too inexperienced
with actual repairs of no boots to understand it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to prevent
a new PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the most
common way Vista gets into a home or small business) from receiving the
Vista DVD or XP CD during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote
this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I
mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been
in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S.
consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an
operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next
month. In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every
new Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's deliberate and
cynical denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't
Dell, and I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this
nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members
try to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area
you work on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or
Dan Stevenson (lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at
MSFT) or Jill Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File
and Storage Services Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable
tools for their customers--that could cause their non-backed up
customers to have to format and loose all their documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible and
displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend on PC
purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small businesses.

CH
__________
I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent in
the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait
time may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were
purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed
operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are identical -
the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't
so I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question is
does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for
me to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my
parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the
required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route may
be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install
vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[cvp]

If they sign a contract then so be it! They can generate almost anything out
of their "recovery partitions" including a standalone recovery environment.

I don't disagree with you by the way on the fact that any good "repair man"
would carry around a set of CDs (now DVDs) to effect recovery. I do, and I
have little sympathy for those who wait until their system is hosed to
create a recovery vehicle.
However those original CDs are out of date fast and a slip-streamed SPx
version is needed instead, so the only solution is to make my own. There are
only so many variations of SETUPP.INI, so a small selection of CDs works
for OEM/Retail/Full/Upgrade combinations of XP - even simpler for Vista.
In addition, I've found few OEM XP systems that don't have the full I386
directory hiding on their system somewhere, so most could make their own if
they did a little bit of googling.

You are looking on the surface CVP. In fact, an OEM system builder--the
little guys who --work hard --are forced to provide Vista DVDs and XP CDs
to their customers. The big guys are not. They are forced (it's not
their decision--lol duh--why in the hell do you think that only Dell out
of 300 "big guys" i.e. OEM named partners is providing a Vista DVD with
new pcs? It's because of a long time policy of OEM VP Scott Di Valerio to
force the 300 OEM named partners to sign a contract that they will not
ship an XP CD or now a Vista DVD to the major population of MSFT end
users--the pc buyer.

Additionally PCs are approximately 97% + of the boxes sold that are
computers, and this figure goes up for mobile devices.

My point is that when you are recovering an XP no boot one of the easiest
and most reliable by far ways to do it is with a repair install.

When you are recovering Vista Win RE and a repair install are also
crucial.

F8 Win Advanced Options may work, but few people are smart enough to know
that they need to try all five of them, because you may get access to
Windows via one Safe Mode and not to another.

To snidely state as many MSFT syncophants do on this group *that the OEMs
aren't required to provide an OS DVD is to skirt the problem. The
problem is that MSFT creates recovery tools that are never delivered to
nearly 100% of their millions of end users because they are foolish enough
to pay thousands of dollars to an OEM named partner for a new PC and don't
think about the fact they are being kept from using Win RE in Vista or
doing a repair install in either XP or Vista because they do not have the
CD (XP) or DVD (Vista) that has the code to do it.

When you have tried to help nearly a thousand people repair XP or Vista,
many who don't have the DVD, you'll get the message and see why I'm so
concerned.

It is also one topic I can guarantee no Softie --that'd be the girls and
boys who type [MSFT] behind their name who venture onto these groups will
say a word. They feel guilty about it and haven't had the cojonas (male
or female version) to stand up to the business types at MSFT and demand
the quality of delivering these repair tools to their millions of end user
customers who get Vista and XP pre-loaded on their PCs.

It's a major screwup by MSFT and the OEM named partners born of
greed---and Scott Di Valerio is responsible for screwing MSFT's customers
in a major way.

This doesn't become important until Billy Bobb end user tries to repair a
blue screen from which he cannot boot. Time wise, we will begin to see
exponentially more of these problems in a few months, and they will all
not have a Vista DVD available to use its recovery environment thanks to
MSFT and the OEMs and their collective greed.

CH

CH

First I'll state that I do not know a figure for Vista. I do know the
figure for XP but since it is company confidential info I am not
permitted to reveal it. I do not expectVista to be out of line. I'll
leave it at "an order of magnitude out". Microsoft has a different
business model for retail boxes.

On the issue of providing recovery tools, it's each OEM's decision how to
provide those: simple recovery partition, advanced recovery partition or
CD/DVD. I don't see this as "MSFT screws their customers".

I got the "notion" from published reports and I can find a letter from
one of the people at the top at MSFT years ago (Eric Rudder who is
currently Senior VP Technical Strategy) that touted this figure when he
wrote Warren Buffet years ago to try to get him to invest in MSFT.
Maybe it's more now. It ain't less. I didn't see you offer a figure
since you were questioning mine--and what an oversight since you brought
it up. My point remains they are losing 20% on retail sales every
quarter and gaining 20% on OEM preinstalled sales and I know that's dead
on from their financial reports.

Do you have anything substantive to say about why and how MSFT screws
their customers out of the Vista DVD (Win RE) or XP CD (repair install)
that both contain the most powerful tools to repair a no boot XP or
Vista?

CH

Where on earth did you get the notion that "MSFT is paid somewhere
between one and two hundred dollars for every preinstalled Vista
sold."?

Even a one-mam shop could get a better break. You're an order of
magnitude out.

"Chad Harris" <vistaneedsmuchowork.net> wrote in message
Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and
multimillion dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their
platinum partner MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on
their preinstall desktops and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but
of course all of those icons can be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme
greed. MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista
for which MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars
for every preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer
seller and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the
customer off because they deny the customer the recovery tools to
repair a Vista that is broken and won't boot--the panoply of tools
MSFT Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools
available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was
critically ill when you were told that life support services are
limited, and if your family member had a cardiac or respiratory arrest
that no CPR efforts or meds would be availalbe to that patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family will
be checking their relative into a hospital under such circumstances?
The Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You can bet your
start button they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail
for months on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be
able to fix a No Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options,
including 4 shots at system restore, and Last Known Good as your
fifth option, but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end
user customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with
better sales than XP for the time period). They are completely aware
they do this. They never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on
this group are quick to tout recovery discs and recovery partitons but
in hundreds of trials with their customers, I have proved the recovery
discs and partitions almost never work, and the genuine OS CDs (XP)
and DVDs (Vista) do and the MSFT shills know this or else are too
inexperienced with actual repairs of no boots to understand it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to prevent
a new PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the most
common way Vista gets into a home or small business) from receiving
the Vista DVD or XP CD during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote
this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I
mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been
in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S.
consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an
operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next
month. In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every
new Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's deliberate and
cynical denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't
Dell, and I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain
this nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team
members try to stop this slight to your customers when this is the
very area you work on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc.
at MSFT) or Dan Stevenson (lead Program Manager for Storage Management
Solutions at MSFT) or Jill Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the
Windows File and Storage Services Team) concerned about the loss of
these valuable tools for their customers--that could cause their
non-backed up customers to have to format and loose all their
documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible
and displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend on
PC purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small businesses.

CH
__________
I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent
in the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait
time may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were
purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed
operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are
identical - the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I don't
so I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question
is does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible for
me to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my
parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the
required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route
may be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install
vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[Chad Harris]

CVP--

Slipstreams are fine, but you don't need them. I've been able to repair XP
with XP Gold (RTM) at anytime and then add SP2 (which always includes the
previous SP in the Windows system).

My point was that the fact that MSFT and the OEM Named Partners conspire to
make sure they don't send a DVD (MSFT execs would rather reveal their
mistresses) handicaps the MSFT subenterprise customer significantly. I'm
exclluding those with Technet subscriptions and MSDN subscriptions (remember
that most of MSFT's customers don't know Technet from a Fishnet.

Anyone can repair any broken XP except for rare systemic partition
decimation with a simple XP CD (RTM/SP1, /SP2) and if I need to then I can
add the sp. For example if you have an XP SP2, and you have a slipstreamed
SP1 or you have an RTM, then your repair is going to give you the OS that
the CD files have on it.

No problem. I have a slipstreamed SP1 I use to repair XP, and I simply then
download/install SP2 to upgrade it.

That's interesting information about the OEM I386s that are lacking, but I'm
not suprised that happens.

CH

If they sign a contract then so be it! They can generate almost anything
out of their "recovery partitions" including a standalone recovery
environment.

I don't disagree with you by the way on the fact that any good "repair
man" would carry around a set of CDs (now DVDs) to effect recovery. I do,
and I have little sympathy for those who wait until their system is hosed
to create a recovery vehicle.
However those original CDs are out of date fast and a slip-streamed SPx
version is needed instead, so the only solution is to make my own. There
are only so many variations of SETUPP.INI, so a small selection of CDs
works for OEM/Retail/Full/Upgrade combinations of XP - even simpler for
Vista.
In addition, I've found few OEM XP systems that don't have the full I386
directory hiding on their system somewhere, so most could make their own
if they did a little bit of googling.

You are looking on the surface CVP. In fact, an OEM system builder--the
little guys who --work hard --are forced to provide Vista DVDs and XP CDs
to their customers. The big guys are not. They are forced (it's not
their decision--lol duh--why in the hell do you think that only Dell out
of 300 "big guys" i.e. OEM named partners is providing a Vista DVD with
new pcs? It's because of a long time policy of OEM VP Scott Di Valerio to
force the 300 OEM named partners to sign a contract that they will not
ship an XP CD or now a Vista DVD to the major population of MSFT end
users--the pc buyer.

Additionally PCs are approximately 97% + of the boxes sold that are
computers, and this figure goes up for mobile devices.

My point is that when you are recovering an XP no boot one of the easiest
and most reliable by far ways to do it is with a repair install.

When you are recovering Vista Win RE and a repair install are also
crucial.

F8 Win Advanced Options may work, but few people are smart enough to know
that they need to try all five of them, because you may get access to
Windows via one Safe Mode and not to another.

To snidely state as many MSFT syncophants do on this group *that the OEMs
aren't required to provide an OS DVD is to skirt the problem. The
problem is that MSFT creates recovery tools that are never delivered to
nearly 100% of their millions of end users because they are foolish
enough to pay thousands of dollars to an OEM named partner for a new PC
and don't think about the fact they are being kept from using Win RE in
Vista or doing a repair install in either XP or Vista because they do not
have the CD (XP) or DVD (Vista) that has the code to do it.

When you have tried to help nearly a thousand people repair XP or Vista,
many who don't have the DVD, you'll get the message and see why I'm so
concerned.

It is also one topic I can guarantee no Softie --that'd be the girls and
boys who type [MSFT] behind their name who venture onto these groups will
say a word. They feel guilty about it and haven't had the cojonas (male
or female version) to stand up to the business types at MSFT and demand
the quality of delivering these repair tools to their millions of end
user customers who get Vista and XP pre-loaded on their PCs.

It's a major screwup by MSFT and the OEM named partners born of
greed---and Scott Di Valerio is responsible for screwing MSFT's customers
in a major way.

This doesn't become important until Billy Bobb end user tries to repair a
blue screen from which he cannot boot. Time wise, we will begin to see
exponentially more of these problems in a few months, and they will all
not have a Vista DVD available to use its recovery environment thanks to
MSFT and the OEMs and their collective greed.

CH

CH

First I'll state that I do not know a figure for Vista. I do know the
figure for XP but since it is company confidential info I am not
permitted to reveal it. I do not expectVista to be out of line. I'll
leave it at "an order of magnitude out". Microsoft has a different
business model for retail boxes.

On the issue of providing recovery tools, it's each OEM's decision how
to provide those: simple recovery partition, advanced recovery partition
or CD/DVD. I don't see this as "MSFT screws their customers".

"Chad Harris" <vistaneedsmuchowork.net> wrote in message
I got the "notion" from published reports and I can find a letter from
one of the people at the top at MSFT years ago (Eric Rudder who is
currently Senior VP Technical Strategy) that touted this figure when he
wrote Warren Buffet years ago to try to get him to invest in MSFT. Maybe
it's more now. It ain't less. I didn't see you offer a figure since
you were questioning mine--and what an oversight since you brought it
up. My point remains they are losing 20% on retail sales every quarter
and gaining 20% on OEM preinstalled sales and I know that's dead on from
their financial reports.

Do you have anything substantive to say about why and how MSFT screws
their customers out of the Vista DVD (Win RE) or XP CD (repair install)
that both contain the most powerful tools to repair a no boot XP or
Vista?

CH

Where on earth did you get the notion that "MSFT is paid somewhere
between one and two hundred dollars for every preinstalled Vista
sold."?

Even a one-mam shop could get a better break. You're an order of
magnitude out.

"Chad Harris" <vistaneedsmuchowork.net> wrote in message
Bonnie--

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and
multimillion dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their
platinum partner MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on
their preinstall desktops and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but
of course all of those icons can be eliminated by a mouse click.

What's important though, is that Dell has said no to MSFT's extreme
greed. MSFT wants end users to not only buy their pre-installed Vista
for which MSFT is paid somewhere between one and two hundred dollars
for every preinstalled Vista sold. However, when the OEM computer
seller and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed Vista, they rip the
customer off because they deny the customer the recovery tools to
repair a Vista that is broken and won't boot--the panoply of tools
MSFT Calls Win RE.

The Win RE team blog is here:

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools
available.

Let me make an analogy here:

Would you want to check a family member into a hospital who was
critically ill when you were told that life support services are
limited, and if your family member had a cardiac or respiratory
arrest that no CPR efforts or meds would be availalbe to that
patient?

Do you think the Gates family or Ballmer family or Allchin family
will be checking their relative into a hospital under such
circumstances? The Darrell Gorter family or Jill Zoeller family? You
can bet your start button they will not.

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in
detail for months on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You
may be able to fix a No Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options,
including 4 shots at system restore, and Last Known Good as your
fifth option, but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end
user customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with
better sales than XP for the time period). They are completely aware
they do this. They never offer any defense. The shills for MSFT on
this group are quick to tout recovery discs and recovery partitons
but in hundreds of trials with their customers, I have proved the
recovery discs and partitions almost never work, and the genuine OS
CDs (XP) and DVDs (Vista) do and the MSFT shills know this or else
are too inexperienced with actual repairs of no boots to understand
it.

Here is Dell's response to MSFT's contractural arm twisting to
prevent a new PC customer to prevent that customer (far and away the
most common way Vista gets into a home or small business) from
receiving the Vista DVD or XP CD during the era of XP:

Operating System Disks and Customer Support
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote
this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configurator for $0. I
mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this
been in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S.
consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an
operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next
month. In
Asia, things are unchanged—we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with
every new Dell PC. I applaud them for it. I condemn MSFT's
deliberate and cynical denial of a Vista DVD to new PC purchasers of
PCs that aren't Dell, and I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on
here and explain this nasty policy.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team
members try to stop this slight to your customers when this is the
very area you work on? Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc.
at MSFT) or Dan Stevenson (lead Program Manager for Storage
Management Solutions at MSFT) or Jill Zoeller (Community Program
Manager for the Windows File and Storage Services Team) concerned
about the loss of these valuable tools for their customers--that
could cause their non-backed up customers to have to format and loose
all their documents and settings?

This dirty little secret of MSFT marketing was simply irresponsible
and displays low regard for MSFT's millions of end users who depend
on PC purchaces to receive Vista for their families and small
businesses.

CH
__________
I purchased a HP computer in January therefore came with XP. I sent
in the
information for the Vista upgrade, but I have been advised the wait
time may
still be 4 - 6 weeks.

In the mean time, my parents needed a new computer. The were
purchasing
after Feb 1, so their computer came preinstalled with Vista. Our
two
computer are identical with the exception of the factory installed
operating
system. The hardware & software specs of both systems are
identical - the
motherboard, processor, chipset, drives, cards, are all identical.

I was really hoping I would have my Vista upgrade by now, but I
don't so I'm
trying to be a bit creative in options to upgrade. So, my question
is does
my computer really know it is a 7680, not a 7780? Is it possible
for me to
reformat my hard drive, then use the recovery CDs supplied with my
parents
computer to 'rebuild mine' which would intern install Vista & the
required
drivers software on to my system? If this is possible, this route
may be a
better option anyways because Vista & drivers would be clean install
vs.
upgrading XP.

Thanks.

 

[cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)]

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:30:39 -0400, "Chad Harris"

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and multimillion
dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their platinum partner
MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on their preinstall desktops
and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but of course all of those icons can
be eliminated by a mouse click.

Great - let's hear it for pre-installed spam, folks!

...when the OEM computer seller and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed
Vista, they rip the customer off because they deny the customer the
recovery tools to repair a Vista that is broken and won't boot--the
panoply of tools MSFT Calls Win RE.

It's interesting you raise this now, when things are getting better.

Where were you for the 5 years of XP hell, during which:
- XP shipped with zero bootable maintenance OS
- OEMs shipped XP with only "recovery" disks, or not even that
- MS forbade users access to WinPE (licensing sphincter blues)
?

Or did you do what many of us geeks did, i.e. embrace Bart PE as the
de facto mOS of choice for XP?

At least now, Vista DVD boot into a maintenance OS (eventually). It's
in the repair section, where you can drop to a command prompt and run
the few things that aren't blocked by need for system rights etc.

Sure, it's not as mature a platform as Bart - there aren't already
plenty of plugins for common tools, there's no RunScanner equivalent
to operate relative to HD installation's registry hives, etc. and of
course there's no GUI, not even a Menu button.

Still, WinPE has some advantages, in that it runs independently of the
optical drive, so you can eject the disk and use other CDRs (e.g. a
Bart disk full of tools) and it will read USB storage changes on the
fly, whereas Bart sees these only at boot time and will not detect
changes (i.e. devices unplugged, swapped, etc.).

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to repair
Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail for months
on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be able to fix a No
Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including 4 shots at system
restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option, but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better sales
than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do this.
Agreed.

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers receiving
the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every new
Dell PC. I applaud them for it.

I applaud them thus: "Thanks for no longer gouging us as you used to".

There's nothing stopping OEMs from shipping proper generic
installation disks. In fact, if you sign up as an OEM, that is the
stock you get. However, MS fails to *require* OEMS to do this; as
long as some means to restore the originall installation, it's
considered acceptable to MS (which IMO is too low a standard).

It is the large OEMs who push this envelope with their "recovery
disks", "special" partitions, and first-use prompts to feed in your
own disks to make what they were too damn miserly to provide with the
system. If a cut-price generic $20 LAN card can offord to drop in a
driver CD, WTF is wrong with these "royal" OEMs?

I condemn MSFT's deliberate and cynical denial of a Vista DVD
to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't Dell

Surely you aren't championing Dell as a high standard? They've just
admitted they've been ripping off customers for years, while all small
OEMs have been providing custom-installable generic installation disks
for all these years. Only when compared to even more rapacious
large-brand OEMs like Compaq do Dell look "better".

What kind of a standard is that? See tag line...

I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this nasty policy.

I'm not from MSFT, and I'd love to see someone from MSFT rise to this
challenge. For one thing, "Genuine Advantage" becomes a joke when MS
allows rubbish like current OEM practice to continue; it smells as if
all MS cares about is that they've been paid. Fair enough, but then
don't make a fool of yourself by waving "Genuine Advantage" claims.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members try
to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area you work on?

I don't know what area Darrel Gorter works on. The OEM stuff seems to
be a walled-off section of MSFT, and one that MVPs don't have much
(any?) contact with. For folks outside that section, there may be
little they can do other than agitate from the outside, as we do.

Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or Dan Stevenson
(lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at MSFT) or Jill
Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File and Storage Services
Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable tools for their customers

As above. Let's see... the storage folks seem happy to wave "kill,
bury, deny" ChkDsk / AutoChk as the sole "solution" to file system
corruption and data recovery, so I wouldn't look for clue there. When
it comes to file system maintenance and recovery, I couldn't begin to
take them seriously until they at least catch up with MS-DOS 6, i.e.
provide an interactive, user-controlled file system repair tool.

that could cause their non-backed up customers to have to format
and loose all their documents and settings?

Yup. Backup is not enough... MS haven't a clue about the need to
formally manage malware either, it's still "but Windows is so secure
it never gets infected, so why would you need to clean it?" or "just
wipe and rebuild whenever you suspect you may be infected", i.e. every
time any poorly-defined problem arises on good hardware, which is
about 80% of the reasons why one has to fix PCs. DUH.

As I say, it's ironic you're beaing up on them now, as things are al
last getting better.

Yes, WinPE 2.0 is still obsessed with the setup of new PCs, and hardly
aware of the need to maintain existing installations, but at least we
can download and use it.

Yes, WinRE is still largely an automated "we'll do it for you" thing,
but it's a vast improvement over Recovery Console, which was not even
a maintenance OS in that it could not run arbitrary programs. WinRE
functionality is built into the standard (generic OEM included) Vista
DVD, so that at last this IS a maintenance OS... do you realize this
is the first mOS NT Has ever shipped with? The last HD-independent
mOS MS provided was DOS mode bootable diskettes in the Win9x era.

When you beat up folks who are starting to do better (and usually,
that means those who always had clue are beginning to prevail over the
former majority that didn't) it's very discouraging for those who need
our thanks and support. Getting maintenance OS issues even this far
up the ladder has taken a LOT of work, believe me.

To conclude; don't mix these two issues:
- lack of maintainability of the OS as a whole
- OEM-specific user-hostile practice sanctioned by MS

These are both big issues, but they are different. We are beginning
to win on the first; the second is a battlefield that remains closed
to us. Don't punch out the folks winning the first battle, for the
onging failure to get anywhere on the second.

And don't tell me with a straight face that I should "applaud" Dell.

--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains.

 

[cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)]

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:47:41 -0400, "Chad Harris"

But for all the propaganda and hundreds of millions spent promoting
Vista with Wagner Edstrom and McCann Ericson Worldwide ad
agencies on media buys on TV and full page adds in major newspapers,
a fraction of this money could have gone to insure that every end user
customer got a Vista DVD and became "empowered" to fix Vista.

Time for a backgrounder...

When you or I install an OS, we generally do so interactively - i.e.
we boot off something (DOS mode diskette with CD drivers, or the OS
disk itself) and we step through the dialogs, making choices as we go.

But high-volume operations don't do this. Instead, they develop a
"reference machine" and then they copy that image to the PCs they make
and/or deploy. They may not use the "normal" OS disk at all.

There are two types of "high-volume" deployers:
- large OEMs mass-producing systems
- large organizations using multiple PCs in-house

In both cases, economies of scale may it more worthwhile to spend days
of expert time setting up the perfect "reference system" and working
out how to image this, than an extra hour per PC that is to be set up.

Typical dumb-imaging locks you into the same hardware, due to the
embedded drivers and/or due to fixed partition image sizes. This is
why it is so difficult to break the "modelism" that pervades large
brands (e.g. "I'd like model A, but with the larger HD from model B")
or why your corporate office may still be acquiring "new" PCs with
dated specs after better stuff has come out.


In the XP era, Microsoft's disk imaging tools were restricted to large
OEMs only; WinPE wasn't available even to MSDN subscribers, let alone
small system builders or end-users. Large enterprises (e.g. Ford
Motor Company) had access, too.

This is why WinPE is so poor as a maintenance OS, even though the core
feature set would suggest it's the best tool for such purposes. The
only folks who had access, were exactly the folks who never do
non-destructive system maintenance anyway. Those that may have
pirated WinPE to use it for such purposes, would hardly be in a
position to feed back ideas and developments to MS.

So WinPE languished as an under-developed backwater, while Bart PE
leaped ahead with strong user forum support, and even better support
from tools developers (e.g. Avast for Bart, Spybot Bart support, etc.)


I got access to WinPE 2.0 at the dawn of Vista, because MSFT made it
available to anyone as part of the free Business Desktop Deployment
2007 suite. At this point, MS has developed imaging technology to
beat the "dumb image blues"; your installation images can now be
completely hardware-agnostic, so you can use them on any size hard
drive on any system hardware. Brand-name "modelism" (e.g. "you have
to pay the full price for model B if you want the bigger hard drive")
may contune, but there's no longer a technical reason for it to do so.


Large-volume computing aims to spend a minimum amount of time per
system - with "no touch" build being the ideal. This desire to avoid
"adding value" to each sale condinues into support; they'd rather
answer all calls with "insert disk, boot, say Yes to wipe the hard
drive and recover the system".

With a generic, custom-installable OS disk in the hands of the user,
OEM support would actually have to "think" about things like; how did
the user set up the PC? What file systems and volume sizes? If I
want to say "insert the disk and...", is it D: or something else?

Hence what I refer to as "punitive support":
- "please insert disk and click Yes to do a factory restore"
- ' won't that wipe my data? '
- "yep"
- ' I don't want to do that! '
- "well, we can't help you then... <click>"

Those who aren't savvy enough to balk at "just" wiping the system will
be so traumatized that they'll never call OEM support again - which
suits the OEM just fine. It's the old bait-and-switch; attrach users
based on "brand" and expectations of support, then switch to punitive
support that slashes your support overheads.

MSFT has left their customers high and dry, up a creek

I think you will find it is the OEMs who push MS for cheaper
licensing, reduced-value products, and simlified support calls.

When big OEMs don't get what they want, they can cry to the lawyers
that MS won't let them exercise their right to screw the customer.
What you take as the "voice of the consumer" is usually nothing but
the bellowing of competing large corporations who aren't MSFT.

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to find out which OEMs ship
custom-installable OS disks and which do not - the resellers always
play dumb and tell you "yes, it's Genuine Windows" (which means
nothing except MS gets paid).

Market forces can't apply Darwinian pressures because crucial details
are hidden from the user - and this is an OEM/MS cartel thing, with
collusion from advertising-driven "objective" magazine reviewers etc.


In the XP era, you'd have been right - even the most generic OEM or
overpriced retail "full pack" OS packages came with NO non-HD-bootable
OS whatsoever. Recovery Console was a closed few-tricks pony, the
functional equivalent of MS-DOS 4's DOS Shell as a file manager.

But in the Vista era, you're wrong - as long as you avoid the clutches
of large OEMs, you'd have a Vista DVD that boots into a command-line
maintenance OS. Whether this is a subset of WinPE and/or WinRE, or
the full extent of these things, I couldn't say. However, much of
WinRE's functionality seems built into the Vista DVD even before you
branch from "Repair" section into the command line mOS.

MSFT refuses to discuss their denial of Vista DVDs or XP DVDs to their
customers the last several years.

Yep. Privately it's been conceded that the sphincteric licensing of
WinPE has been a mistake. It's crippled community development and
adoption of that product, which now emerges blinkng into the light
like a fully-grown 21-year-old who hasn't learbed to speak yet.

WinPE is well-developed as a mOS, but the design breaks several mOS
rules, particularly as embedded in the Vista DVD
- don't boot the HD (you can't assume it's safe)
- don't write to the HD (you can't assume it's safe)
- don't even read the HD (you can't assume it's safe or possible)
- branch off for RAM diagnostics early, with a minimum of code
- accumulate RAM testing errors on screen

When the Vista DVD boots, it pauses for a while before chaining into
booting the HD - irrespective of whether the HD is set as a boot
device in CMOS. If you wanted to avoid booting the HD (bad hardware,
corrupted file system, known malware payload about to be triggered,
failing HD) then too bad - any glitch that resets the PC when you
aren't looking, will boot the HD.

Even though glitches that reset the PC when you are not looking are a
specific contra-indication to booting the HD.

Vista DVD starts by sniffing the HD to see if there's a Vista
installation there, If there isn't, you can't do anything. Too bad
if you wanted to RAM check beforee adding a HD, or do a physical HD
test on a known-wiped HD.

If you do a RAM test, then this is set up to run on the next HD boot
(thus writing to the HD's file system through RAM that you suspect is
defective... do I have to explain why that is a Bad Idea?).

Microsoft's RAM test may show results on screen for the current pass
only. Leave it running overnight so that it does 100 iterations, and
what you see on the screen may be only the last iteration. That just
doesn't make sense. Or worse, you're told to "just" boot Vista and
look for the results in Event Viewer.

Let me get this straight; to find out whether I have bad RAM that
invalidates any assumptions about code behavior, I have to boot a
complex mass of code that automatically writes to the file system all
the time, and dig around in an embedded log I can't access from
outside the afflicted installation?

That's like an aircraft with landing gear that only extends after the
plane is landed. It's a crazt design.

So yes; as yes, MS don't "get" system maintenance and how a
maintenance OS should operate. Why would they? As soon as it's "bad
hardware", it's not their support problem anymore, so their "vendor
vision" extends only so far as keeping large squeaky wheels (big
corporate clients, large OEMs) happy and making sure that Windows will
boot and run. What happens tou your data is your problem.

The typical one-size-fits-all OEM "support" approach is...
- wipe HD and do a factory restore; did thatr work?
- Yes = we're done, 'bye
- No = hmm, maybe bad hardware, we'll issue an RMA

In contrast, a user-orientated tech would do something like this:

http://cquirke.mvps.org/pccrisis.htm

The two approaches are as incompatible as sodium and water. It's been
a battle to get MSFT thinking on maintenance at all; they're new to
the party, and welcome, but it will take a while before they "get" it.

-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

Running Windows-based av to kill active malware is like striking
a match to see if what you are standing in is water or petrol.

 

[Chad Harris]

Dell auctions off real-estate during their install and MSFT lost to
Google. Where was I during what? If you can get some help googling I was
on the XP MSFT groups helping throughout the rein of XP. I emailed Jim
Allchin and pleaded with him not to allow the continued screwing to go
forward during the rein of Vista. I helped hundreds of people who posted
exactly what will be posted here and in Vista general since this no longer
is a "setup group" because at this point it wouldn't be surprising to see it
become an extension of an ebay chat room. They don't backup; they ignore
image backups and the ones available in the OS as well; they can't boot
Vista (used to be XP) and they don't have a DVD or whatever media the OS is
on. Most of the time with Vista it's a DVD although series CDs exist in
niche circumstances.

I didn't "raise this now." I raised it plenty on the TBT groups; I raised
it since XP Beta'd and as fasr as I know XP is not in Beta now. I raised it
on the XP groups and I raised it in the appropriate places on the Redmond
campus and I got a lot of "we agree with yous" from engineers on different
teams. I never got a response from the jerk responsible Scott Di Valerio
the accountant who is lol head of the system builders just as moronic Monica
Goodling, and Kyle Sampson recently out of law school and a host of others
who have minimal to no litigation response were put in charge of evaluating
US Attorneys who could run circles around them. Monica Goodling's response
has been a very strong one for one of the heads of DOJ--a group of people
who head hunt targets with grand juries where the targets cannot even be
present. She fled her office (probably never to return with a job--her desk
will be cleaned out for her and plead the 5th--lol Bush's impotent Monica
without the blue dress on).

I wasn't responsible for how XP shipped because if I had had a scintilla of
say so, MSFT wouldn't have been allowed to preinstall one XP without
providing a retail OS when shalmiels and schlamazoles were dumb enough to
pay thousands of dollars only to realize they had a door stop in their
recovery discs when it wouldn't boot with a BSOD stop error. One point
that's been lost in this colloquy is that most of the millions of people who
purchase a new PC don't have a clue that they aren't given anything reliable
to fix Vista or XP; they don't know what a repair install or the panoply of
repair modalities are either in XP or Vista. They find out when they can't
boot; they haven't backed up; they are taught to use all five F8 Windows
Advanced Options if they are working with one of the few people who know to
do this, and they are asked if they have an OS CD (XP) or DVD.

I'm not responsible for MSFT's forbiding access to Win PE. They are
preventing access to Win RE now for all their end users who don't buy a Dell
(dude lol) or don't purchase a retail Vista DVD.

I am well aware of Bart PE; I know most of the ancillary 3rd party helpers
for no boot situations; I know about the $250 tool that Sysinternals (now
part of MSFT will sell you) but I always have had a retail CD or DVD and
haven't needed Bart or the others. I can fix any no boot situation unless
partitions have been destroyed to the degree that booting is impossible.

Vista's Win RE's tools have environments that don't require the command
environment--it depends on the problem. I've outlined them on this group
and the general one nearly 50 times in the past year and a half.

My lament is that MSFT does all it can to make sure it's main vein of
subenterprise customers won't get to the repair environment because it tries
to keep OEMs from giving them a Vista DVD just as it did during the XP
years.

I think it goes far beyond MSFT's not requiring the 300 Name OEM partners to
ship a genuine DVD; they actively lean on them not to ship one--they want
people to realize they need one by the time it's too late so they are forced
to rush out and buy a retail DVD in order to try to recover Vista (same
existed during XP with the CD).

The standard is the same as Bill Gates'/or the Ballmers' parents being in a
Seattle hospital and needing CPR and there being no crash cart and no
personnel trained in administering it. The recovery discs or quintissential
pieces of garbage. It's like putting tap water in the vials or syringes of
epinepherin and using ping pong paddles in place of the paddles from a
defibrillator. It's the standard of pure crap that doesn't work.

The parties that are miserly are simply MSFT and the greedy OEMs who know
they should arrive at a price point at which MSFT will provide OS media to
each and every customer who buys a pc.

MSFT personnel would much rather discuss their mistresses than discuss this
situation belive me.

I wasn't championing Dell as a high standard althought their hardware has
worked fine for me. I was pointing out Dell of course because in the
circumstance I am championing--all OEMs providing genuine OS media--Dell has
taken that step at least according to the blog I linked from Dell.

Darrell Gorter works on setup for MSFT and possibly other areas I'm not
aware of. I ID'd other personnel who should prevent this eggergious
situation but who are apparently afraid to raise a peep about it and thus
far have been afraid to discuss it in these groups. Darell helps at times on
the public groups and other forums in contrast to most MSFTies who never
participate on them. You could do a search on this group or the Vista
general group or google for his name.

I agree with all your points, and they are well expressed. I believe Dell
should be applauded for shipping an OS DVD with pre-installed Vista boxes,
anyway.

Recovery console was largely a piece of total crap. I found it sometimes
useful when you needed to run a chkdsk /r outside the windows environment to
break a chkdsk stuck in an endless loop. The convoluted MSKB on the NTLDR
error proferring a never ending fix via the RC was a parody of MSKBs but
hardly the only one from Redmond.

Thanks for the well thought out response

CH

John McCain travelled to the Iraq market accompanied by 100 heavily armed
soldiers with 3 Blackhawk choppers overhead. He then BS's that things are
better in Iraq. And this is when the Shiite ethnic cleansing teams are
standing down --they can wait for 10,000 years if they have to. Bush has
created a better environment for those who own stock in coffins that are
supplied at Dover.

500 Iraqi civilians were killed last week. Several American soldiers were
exploded to bits. You indifferent Americans are getting the democracy you
deserve shoved up your collective indifferent butts.

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:30:39 -0400, "Chad Harris"

Dell is one example among 300 huge multibillion dollar and multimillion
dollar companies who have had the courage to defy their platinum partner
MSFT. Dell has acutioned space for advertising on their preinstall
desktops
and setups to Google to MSFT's shagrin, but of course all of those icons
can
be eliminated by a mouse click.

Great - let's hear it for pre-installed spam, folks!

...when the OEM computer seller and MSFT sell a PC with pre-installed
Vista, they rip the customer off because they deny the customer the
recovery tools to repair a Vista that is broken and won't boot--the
panoply of tools MSFT Calls Win RE.

It's interesting you raise this now, when things are getting better.

Where were you for the 5 years of XP hell, during which:
- XP shipped with zero bootable maintenance OS
- OEMs shipped XP with only "recovery" disks, or not even that
- MS forbade users access to WinPE (licensing sphincter blues)
?

Or did you do what many of us geeks did, i.e. embrace Bart PE as the
de facto mOS of choice for XP?

At least now, Vista DVD boot into a maintenance OS (eventually). It's
in the repair section, where you can drop to a command prompt and run
the few things that aren't blocked by need for system rights etc.

Sure, it's not as mature a platform as Bart - there aren't already
plenty of plugins for common tools, there's no RunScanner equivalent
to operate relative to HD installation's registry hives, etc. and of
course there's no GUI, not even a Menu button.

Still, WinPE has some advantages, in that it runs independently of the
optical drive, so you can eject the disk and use other CDRs (e.g. a
Bart disk full of tools) and it will read USB storage changes on the
fly, whereas Bart sees these only at boot time and will not detect
changes (i.e. devices unplugged, swapped, etc.).

Win RE Notes
http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/default.aspx

The PC you have and your parents have don't have these tools available.

Let me make an analogy here:

You need a Vista DVD to be able to have the full panoply of tools to
repair
Vista. You can use Win RE's tools that I've outlined in detail for months
on this group and Vista general to fix Vista. You may be able to fix a No
Boot Vista with F8 Windows Advanced Options, including 4 shots at system
restore, and Last Known Good as your fifth option, but you may not.

It is totally irresponsible of MSFT to leave their millions of end user
customers who buy Vista via pre-installed PCs (to date with better sales
than XP for the time period). They are completely aware they do this.
Agreed.

Dell is promising their customers that despite MSFT's deliberate
indifference toward their biggest slice of subenterprise customers
receiving
the means to recover or CPR
Vista (Win RE on a Vista DVD) that they will ship an OS DVD with every new
Dell PC. I applaud them for it.

I applaud them thus: "Thanks for no longer gouging us as you used to".

There's nothing stopping OEMs from shipping proper generic
installation disks. In fact, if you sign up as an OEM, that is the
stock you get. However, MS fails to *require* OEMS to do this; as
long as some means to restore the originall installation, it's
considered acceptable to MS (which IMO is too low a standard).

It is the large OEMs who push this envelope with their "recovery
disks", "special" partitions, and first-use prompts to feed in your
own disks to make what they were too damn miserly to provide with the
system. If a cut-price generic $20 LAN card can offord to drop in a
driver CD, WTF is wrong with these "royal" OEMs?

I condemn MSFT's deliberate and cynical denial of a Vista DVD
to new PC purchasers of PCs that aren't Dell

Surely you aren't championing Dell as a high standard? They've just
admitted they've been ripping off customers for years, while all small
OEMs have been providing custom-installable generic installation disks
for all these years. Only when compared to even more rapacious
large-brand OEMs like Compaq do Dell look "better".

What kind of a standard is that? See tag line...

I challenge anyone from MSFT to come on here and explain this nasty
policy.

I'm not from MSFT, and I'd love to see someone from MSFT rise to this
challenge. For one thing, "Genuine Advantage" becomes a joke when MS
allows rubbish like current OEM practice to continue; it smells as if
all MS cares about is that they've been paid. Fair enough, but then
don't make a fool of yourself by waving "Genuine Advantage" claims.

What's up Darell Gorter [MSFT]? Why didn't you and your team members
try
to stop this slight to your customers when this is the very area you work
on?

I don't know what area Darrel Gorter works on. The OEM stuff seems to
be a walled-off section of MSFT, and one that MVPs don't have much
(any?) contact with. For folks outside that section, there may be
little they can do other than agitate from the outside, as we do.

Weren't Eduardo Lareano (System Restore etc. at MSFT) or Dan Stevenson
(lead Program Manager for Storage Management Solutions at MSFT) or Jill
Zoeller (Community Program Manager for the Windows File and Storage
Services
Team) concerned about the loss of these valuable tools for their customers

As above. Let's see... the storage folks seem happy to wave "kill,
bury, deny" ChkDsk / AutoChk as the sole "solution" to file system
corruption and data recovery, so I wouldn't look for clue there. When
it comes to file system maintenance and recovery, I couldn't begin to
take them seriously until they at least catch up with MS-DOS 6, i.e.
provide an interactive, user-controlled file system repair tool.

that could cause their non-backed up customers to have to format
and loose all their documents and settings?

Yup. Backup is not enough... MS haven't a clue about the need to
formally manage malware either, it's still "but Windows is so secure
it never gets infected, so why would you need to clean it?" or "just
wipe and rebuild whenever you suspect you may be infected", i.e. every
time any poorly-defined problem arises on good hardware, which is
about 80% of the reasons why one has to fix PCs. DUH.

As I say, it's ironic you're beaing up on them now, as things are al
last getting better.

Yes, WinPE 2.0 is still obsessed with the setup of new PCs, and hardly
aware of the need to maintain existing installations, but at least we
can download and use it.

Yes, WinRE is still largely an automated "we'll do it for you" thing,
but it's a vast improvement over Recovery Console, which was not even
a maintenance OS in that it could not run arbitrary programs. WinRE
functionality is built into the standard (generic OEM included) Vista
DVD, so that at last this IS a maintenance OS... do you realize this
is the first mOS NT Has ever shipped with? The last HD-independent
mOS MS provided was DOS mode bootable diskettes in the Win9x era.

When you beat up folks who are starting to do better (and usually,
that means those who always had clue are beginning to prevail over the
former majority that didn't) it's very discouraging for those who need
our thanks and support. Getting maintenance OS issues even this far
up the ladder has taken a LOT of work, believe me.

To conclude; don't mix these two issues:
- lack of maintainability of the OS as a whole
- OEM-specific user-hostile practice sanctioned by MS

These are both big issues, but they are different. We are beginning
to win on the first; the second is a battlefield that remains closed
to us. Don't punch out the folks winning the first battle, for the
onging failure to get anywhere on the second.

And don't tell me with a straight face that I should "applaud" Dell.

--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains.

--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

 

[Gary VanderMolen]

Yes, it will probably work. If the install asks for a Product Key,
just skip that part. You have a 30 day grace period before
activation is necessary, and even that can be extended several times.
When your express upgrade key arrives, you can activate with that.

Gary VanderMolen

 

[cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)]

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 17:04:35 -0400, "Chad Harris"

You are looking on the surface CVP. In fact, an OEM system builder--the
little guys who --work hard --are forced to provide Vista DVDs and XP CDs to
their customers. The big guys are not. They are forced (it's not their
decision--lol duh--why in the hell do you think that only Dell out of 300
"big guys" i.e. OEM named partners is providing a Vista DVD with new pcs?

It's because of a long time policy of OEM VP Scott Di Valerio to force the
300 OEM named partners to sign a contract that they will not ship an XP CD
or now a Vista DVD to the major population of MSFT end users--the pc buyer.

Have you got more on that? Looking for a smoking gun, here.

Google( Scott Di Valerio contract )

Google( Scott Di Valerio OEM contract disk )

Nothing interesting; he doesn't seem to be a techie who'd talk about
disks, more a financial expert.

Do you have any URLs that shed light on whether the long-standing
deplorable state of large-OEM installation disks are the result of
push from MS or pull from the OEMs?

My point is that when you are recovering an XP no boot one of the easiest
and most reliable by far ways to do it is with a repair install.

That's generally not an approach I'd recommend.

See: http://cquirke.mvps.org/reinst.htm

I do see repair and scorched-earth installs as being necessary parts
of the total maintenance solution set, but both are likely to fail
and/or make things worse in many of the contexts that prevent Windows
from running, especially bad hardware.

I'm more interested in "cleaner" ways of fixing problems, as well as
objectives often more important than getting Windows running again,
such as data recovery and preservation of forensics.

Those needs have been particularly poorly met through the XP era.

To snidely state as many MSFT syncophants do on this group *that the OEMs
aren't required to provide an OS DVD is to skirt the problem.

IMO, it is negligent (to customers' interests) for MSFT not to require
OEMs to provide full custom-installable OS installation disks and
(where MSFT finally develop it) mOS functionality.

IOW, I'm not "letting MS off the hook". Even if it were the OEMs
demanding the right to short-change the user, MSFT should dig in and
draw the line - especially if they beat the "Genuine Advantage" drum.

That MSFT might be pushing reluctant OEMs into short-changing the user
is a possibility, but I'd want proof to back that up before making
that assertion, or considering this more likely than OEM demands.

MSFT creates recovery tools that are never delivered to nearly 100%
of their millions of end users because they are foolish enough to pay
thousands of dollars to an OEM named partner for a new PC

It's Darwin take the hindmost, there. Where there's more money than
sense, you will see big-brands beating best-specs systems, and a
larger market share for Apple Macs.

It is also one topic I can guarantee no Softie --that'd be the girls and
boys who type [MSFT] behind their name who venture onto these groups will
say a word. They feel guilty about it

More likely, they may be NDA-constrained. I'm under NDA too, but on
this matter there's nothing more I can tell you if I weren't.

BTW: A more significant change is that even as a small-volume OEM, MS
Office 2007 no longer comes with installation disks for the end user.
I'm supposed to buy one set of disks to install everyone's MS Office
and not provide originals or copies of these to the user.

That IMO is very significant suckage, and is one of the main reasons
my general disgust levels have been nudged up a couple of percent.

------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

The most accurate diagnostic instrument
in medicine is the Retrospectoscope

 

[cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 02:20:21 -0400, "Chad Harris"

Slipstreams are fine, but you don't need them. I've been able to repair XP
with XP Gold (RTM) at anytime and then add SP2 (which always includes the
previous SP in the Windows system).

Do NOT try that on any HD > 137G !!!

XP "Gold' is unsafe > 137G
XP SP1 is usually safe > 137G; enough to get SP2 on
XP SP2 is safe > 137G

I would strongly recommend slipstreaming in the latest SP and
rebuilding your installation disk from that, or at least so you can
build Bart CDRs properly.

For one thing, an SP-native installation cuts a lot of stale-file
clutter out of the engine room.

Sometimes, an SP will invalidate your original OS installation disk,
especially for maintenance. For example, you may not be able to
operate on an XP SP2 install from a pre-SP2 Recovery Console.

IMO, if MS breaks your installation disk when bringing out an SP, then
that SP should include a user-friendly tool to build a replacement OS
installation disk with the SP slipstreamed in.

My point was that the fact that MSFT and the OEM Named Partners conspire to
make sure they don't send a DVD

It certainly looks that way, and it's kept really difficult to find
out which OEMs suck less than others, Perhaps Dell have seen the
opportunity to boast they now suck less than they used to?

-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

Tip Of The Day:
To disable the 'Tip of the Day' feature...

 

[Guest]

Maybe recovery discs and partitions never work for you, but I have had to use
them many times on my kids pc's and they have worked every time.