Home NAS question: NAS Suggestions for Dummies needed

[Ken K]

Win2K, SP4

I have a home network and have been increasingly concerned about
potential theft of my home computer, as many important documents are
kept on it. While the files are password protected, my thought is that
it would be more reasonable to put in one of the little NAS boxes that
have been proliferating over the past year or so and using it as a
repository for my more personal files as a hedge against identity
theft. My house is wired and there are many places where I can stash
the hardware.

Assuming that the thought is a reasonable one, there are some qustions
that I have about how the home NAS works. My assumption is that I could
do the same thing with a spare computer by putting the extra computer
somewhere and mapping the drive to my desktop. I have some spare parts
and could build a computer but by the time I put the OS on it and buy a
few parts, I may be to the point of the cost of a NAS. The other option
is to purchase a NAS.

How do they work? By that I mean what OS do they use that allows them
to work with Windows without requiring a whole computer along with it?

Also, what about the issue of backup? If I have the NAS stashed
somewhere with all of my personal financial info on it and the NAS
crashes, I am in deep doodoo. If I back up the NAS to my computer, I
have defeated the purpose of remote storage...

Does someone have suggestions about a strategy for NAS with backup that
solves these problems?

Thanks
Ken K

 

[dg]

Also, what about the issue of backup? If I have the NAS stashed somewhere
with all of my personal financial info on it and the NAS crashes, I am in
deep doodoo. If I back up the NAS to my computer, I have defeated the
purpose of remote storage...

Does someone have suggestions about a strategy for NAS with backup that
solves these problems?

Thanks
Ken K

Best you can do without actually having off-site backup, is to use RAID or
another redundant scheme. Remember, RAID doesn't protect against lightning
strikes or other freaks incidents that can destroy 2 drives at once. I have
seen it happen firsthand. Offsite backup is necessary for good insurance.

You pretty much have to backup somehow.

--Dan

 

[Rod Speed]

Win2K, SP4

I have a home network and have been increasingly concerned about potential
theft of my home computer, as many important documents are kept on it. While
the files are password protected, my thought is that it would be more
reasonable to put in one of the little NAS boxes that have been proliferating
over the past year or so and using it as a repository for my more personal
files as a hedge against identity theft. My house is wired and there are many
places where I can stash the hardware.

Assuming that the thought is a reasonable one,

It is.

there are some qustions that I have about how the home NAS works. My
assumption is that I could do the same thing with a spare computer by putting
the extra computer somewhere and mapping the drive to my desktop.

Yes, you can, but that wouldnt be as easy to hide, physically much bigger.

I have some spare parts and could build a computer but by the time I put the
OS on it and buy a few parts, I may be to the point of the cost of a NAS.

Really depends on what you need to buy.

The other option is to purchase a NAS.

How do they work? By that I mean what OS do they use that allows them to work
with Windows without requiring a whole computer along with it?

They dont have a true OS, they just have what they need in rom and
they just appear as a device with an ip for config, like a hardware
router does. Normally they appear as a web page at that ip.

Also, what about the issue of backup? If I have the NAS stashed somewhere
with all of my personal financial info on it and the NAS crashes, I am in deep
doodoo. If I back up the NAS to my computer, I have defeated the purpose of
remote storage...

Nothing to stop you backing up the contents of
the NAS onto CDs or DVDs and hiding those or
taking them offsite for the ultimate in backup.

Does someone have suggestions about a strategy for NAS with backup that solves
these problems?

Just backup to removable media just like you would do otherwise.
The NAS is just a set of files etc, just like any other storage.

 

[Ken K]

message



It is.




Yes, you can, but that wouldnt be as easy to hide, physically much bigger.




Really depends on what you need to buy.




They dont have a true OS, they just have what they need in rom and
they just appear as a device with an ip for config, like a hardware
router does. Normally they appear as a web page at that ip.




Nothing to stop you backing up the contents of
the NAS onto CDs or DVDs and hiding those or
taking them offsite for the ultimate in backup.




Just backup to removable media just like you would do otherwise.
The NAS is just a set of files etc, just like any other storage.

thanks for the info. I think that the NAS is the way to go. Very
simple, too, if all I have to do is to set up an IP address (probably
assigned anyway by my router but I will give it a permanent address.

Ken K

 

[J. Clarke]

Win2K, SP4

I have a home network and have been increasingly concerned about
potential theft of my home computer, as many important documents are
kept on it. While the files are password protected, my thought is that
it would be more reasonable to put in one of the little NAS boxes that
have been proliferating over the past year or so and using it as a
repository for my more personal files as a hedge against identity
theft. My house is wired and there are many places where I can stash
the hardware.

Assuming that the thought is a reasonable one, there are some qustions
that I have about how the home NAS works. My assumption is that I could
do the same thing with a spare computer by putting the extra computer
somewhere and mapping the drive to my desktop. I have some spare parts
and could build a computer but by the time I put the OS on it and buy a
few parts, I may be to the point of the cost of a NAS. The other option
is to purchase a NAS.

How do they work? By that I mean what OS do they use that allows them
to work with Windows without requiring a whole computer along with it?

Also, what about the issue of backup? If I have the NAS stashed
somewhere with all of my personal financial info on it and the NAS
crashes, I am in deep doodoo. If I back up the NAS to my computer, I
have defeated the purpose of remote storage...

Does someone have suggestions about a strategy for NAS with backup that
solves these problems?

Let me make sure I understand what you want to do--you want to keep your
"sensitive" information somewhere other than on your primary computer
because you are concerned that someone will steal your computer and use the
information contained on it for purposes of identity theft.

First, the current system you're using with password protection is _not_
secure. The password prevents the application from opening the file but
does not prevent it from being accessed using other applications that do
not respect the password system--the files are _not_ encrypted.

If you are using Windows 2000 or later you can provide a good deal of
protection by using the Encrypting File System that is built into those
operating systems--with Linux there is a similar technology available. In
Windows, to encrypt, just right-click on the file or folder, select
"properties", "advanced", and "encrypt". Decryption is transparent. If
you do that, make sure that you read everything that is in the help files
about "Encrypted File System", make sure you locate and encrypt the folders
where your applications store temporary files, make sure you have good
login names and passwords, and DO NOT LOSE YOUR KEYS--keep copies in a safe
place. You should also periodically sanitize the free space on your
disk--there may be unlinked allocation units that still contain data that
can be recovered by a determined attacker.

Now, your NAS storage idea is not going to make your system any more secure
unless you make sure that all your sensitive files, including any temporary
copies made by your applications, go on the NAS, and then anyone who is
stealing your machine for purposes of identity theft is likely to trace out
your cabling and take the NAS as well, unless you go wireless, and that
raises a whole new set of security issues. You'd do best to use the NAS
for backup and to do that use whatever backup program you prefer and then
encrypt the backup file.

Now, as for your other questions, a typical NAS _does_ have "a whole
computer along with it". Just stripped down to the bare essentials
necessary for the application--there's no trick to miniaturizing enough
computing power for that--many cell phones have more than enough.
Typically they run Linux but some may be running proprietary operating
systems. To build an NAS, just put your pieces together and put Linux on
it with appropriate network file systems--for Windows you'd use
SAMBA--remember that despite the fact that you see Linux in boxes in stores
with prices on them, Linux is GPL and available for the time it takes to
download and burn a CD. If you've never run Linux before you'll find it
an interesting and educational experience.

 

[CWatters]

Win2K, SP4

I have a home network and have been increasingly concerned about
potential theft of my home computer,

Might be of interest...

http://www.grisby.org/burglar.html

Quote: "This man's name is Ben Park. He broke in to my flat in the South of
Cambridge on Friday 4th February 2005. I had a video camera with motion
detection software set up on my computer. It captured these images of him. "

The story made the BBC news recently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/4272041.stm

 

[Neil Maxwell]

Win2K, SP4

I have a home network and have been increasingly concerned about
potential theft of my home computer, as many important documents are
kept on it.

I've been looking at the same thing, and haven't yet found an
inexpensive NAS system that does what I want. I'm thinking about
setting up a spare laptop with an external USB drive on it out in the
garage, figuring it's easy to hide reasonably well and will provide
backup redundancy and theft protection. Still, the idea of a small,
dedicated NAS box is compelling.

Here are the issues I've seen or read about with home NAS. YMMV, as
always, and some problems may be fixed by now.

- Many of the inexpensive NAS systems are still buggy. Whether the
bugs are acceptable depends on your application. It's not really a
mature field yet. If you do a google/usenet search on the model
you're interested in, you'll find reviews and discussions of these.
In particular, the D-link NDS-120 and Linksys EFG120 are thrashed by
users who claim they're not ready for prime time.

- Some NAS systems aren't file-system compatible with NTFS, like the
Linksys NSLU2 (an interface to external HDs), which reformats any
drive connected to it into a format unreadable by XP out of the box.
Likewise, an extra drive added to the Buffalotech Linkstation is
read-only unless you let the Buffalo format it first. It also has
some filename limitations and software bugs. The D-link NDS-120
doesn't support NTFS well.

- The Ximeta requires a driver on the client PC, so loses some
flexibility there, but it also works as a PnP USB drive, so that makes
up for it some. Their drivers were buggy last time I tried one, but
they claim to have improved them, and I may give them another shot.

- I'm interested in one that will let you daisy-chain additional USB
drives as NAS storage, and many of them (like the linkstation) don't
allow decent security (or any security) on the daisy-chained drives.

There's more, but much of this is second-hand data, as I'm not up to
buying every single one and testing them. Again, do some extensive
web searches on the boxes you're interested in to see if the
limitations are acceptable to you. Be sure to check the FAQs and
support documents for the vendors, as they often highlight user
problems.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your experiences!

 

[dg]

I really like Shuttle systems. I have setup one as a NAS box using no
keyboard, no mouse, no monitor. The machine turns itself on at a specified
time (in bios), the backup occurs, the machine shuts down when done. The
secretary arrives at work, swaps drives, works the day, goes home, and the
cycle repeats.

Total cost around $400. The system is so small it could be hidden almost
anywhere.

--Dan

 

[Ken K]

I've been looking at the same thing, and haven't yet found an
inexpensive NAS system that does what I want. I'm thinking about
setting up a spare laptop with an external USB drive on it out in the
garage, figuring it's easy to hide reasonably well and will provide
backup redundancy and theft protection. Still, the idea of a small,
dedicated NAS box is compelling.

Here are the issues I've seen or read about with home NAS. YMMV, as
always, and some problems may be fixed by now.

- Many of the inexpensive NAS systems are still buggy. Whether the
bugs are acceptable depends on your application. It's not really a
mature field yet. If you do a google/usenet search on the model
you're interested in, you'll find reviews and discussions of these.
In particular, the D-link NDS-120 and Linksys EFG120 are thrashed by
users who claim they're not ready for prime time.

- Some NAS systems aren't file-system compatible with NTFS, like the
Linksys NSLU2 (an interface to external HDs), which reformats any
drive connected to it into a format unreadable by XP out of the box.
Likewise, an extra drive added to the Buffalotech Linkstation is
read-only unless you let the Buffalo format it first. It also has
some filename limitations and software bugs. The D-link NDS-120
doesn't support NTFS well.

- The Ximeta requires a driver on the client PC, so loses some
flexibility there, but it also works as a PnP USB drive, so that makes
up for it some. Their drivers were buggy last time I tried one, but
they claim to have improved them, and I may give them another shot.

- I'm interested in one that will let you daisy-chain additional USB
drives as NAS storage, and many of them (like the linkstation) don't
allow decent security (or any security) on the daisy-chained drives.

There's more, but much of this is second-hand data, as I'm not up to
buying every single one and testing them. Again, do some extensive
web searches on the boxes you're interested in to see if the
limitations are acceptable to you. Be sure to check the FAQs and
support documents for the vendors, as they often highlight user
problems.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your experiences!

Thanks for this post. Lots of things to think about that I had not
thought of, particularly the issue of not being able to daisy chain and
also to not be able to read NTFS. That latter one is amazing...

Ken

 

[Ken K]

Dan,

Thanks for the post. The price is just fine. I would be grateful if
you can give me a little more info about the hardware involved and what
OS you are using. I have built some computers and done upgrades but I
am no computer jock. I presently have a removable SATA drive in a caddy
that I use for my backup that would probably work.

If you have some time to be a bit more specific, I would be grateful.

Thanks
Ken K

 

[dg]

Thanks for the post. The price is just fine. I would be grateful if you
can give me a little more info about the hardware involved and what OS you
are using. I have built some computers and done upgrades but I am no
computer jock. I presently have a removable SATA drive in a caddy that I
use for my backup that would probably work.

If you have some time to be a bit more specific, I would be grateful.

Thanks
Ken K
----------------------------------------------------

I used a Shuttle SS51G, newegg has refurbs for $115
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=56-101-208R&depa=0

2.4ghz celeron $72 newegg
512MB ram $55 newegg
WD 40GB drive for OS $48 newegg --here you could just use 1 big drive for
data and OS.

I use removable trays for convenience, but you may not need to:

Antec removeable drive tray $35 newegg
I use 120GB WD drives for backup drives.

I am using XP as an OS, which I didn't add into the build cost. I am not
using floppy or CD rom drives, I used USB drives to do the XP install. The
build was simple, and those shuttles are fun.

--Dan

 

[Aloke Prasad]

What do you think of Maxtor Network Storage?

http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/data_sheets/mss_datasheet.pdf

 

[Neil Maxwell]

What do you think of Maxtor Network Storage?

http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/data_sheets/mss_datasheet.pdf

This one is pretty new, and all I could find on it is marketing
releases. That was a month or so ago. If they're actually in the
retail channel, there may be some reviews starting to come in.

I've been pretty happy with my Maxtor externals, but whether they can
pull off user-friendly home NAS is still up in the air. I'm looking
forward to seeing some reviews on it.

 

[Neil Maxwell]

I am using XP as an OS, which I didn't add into the build cost. I am not
using floppy or CD rom drives, I used USB drives to do the XP install. The
build was simple, and those shuttles are fun.

That looks pretty ideal, though I'd consider bumping up to the 865
chipset. Do you have to plug in a monitor and such for administration
now and again, or can you do all the management over the net?

 

[dg]

That looks pretty ideal, though I'd consider bumping up to the 865
chipset. Do you have to plug in a monitor and such for administration
now and again, or can you do all the management over the net?

The reason I was using the SS51G for this project was the price. It is a
cheap platform to start from for such basic use, but I would have preferred
to go with a higher end chipset for other uses. It looks like the SS51G is
pretty much phased out, as seemingly the only available units are refurbed.

To be completely honest, on the NAS box I do have a keyboard, mouse, and
monitor connected via a KVM switch, which is also connected to a 2003 server
and the secretaries workstation. I rarely turn the box on and log in, as
the backup logs are stored on the server and I can be sure the backups are
working correctly just by the logs. I really wanted to make a point of
saying that it COULD be used without a keyboard or anything else, it can be
tucked away anywhere there is power and ethernet and will work just fine-as
long as you disable "halt on keyboard error" in the bios. I actually use
another SS51G for my home theater PC which does NOT use a keyboard and mouse
at the moment-and I do remotely control the PC using software called VNC.
The SS51G is a great budget HTPC, it has optical audio or analog surround
sound, firewire and USB 2.0. I put in a nice AGP video card and a PCI HDTV
tuner card, filling the available slots, but also filling any need I have
for the box.

--Dan

 

[J. Clarke]

I've been looking at the same thing, and haven't yet found an
inexpensive NAS system that does what I want. I'm thinking about
setting up a spare laptop with an external USB drive on it out in the
garage, figuring it's easy to hide reasonably well and will provide
backup redundancy and theft protection. Still, the idea of a small,
dedicated NAS box is compelling.

Here are the issues I've seen or read about with home NAS. YMMV, as
always, and some problems may be fixed by now.

- Many of the inexpensive NAS systems are still buggy. Whether the
bugs are acceptable depends on your application. It's not really a
mature field yet. If you do a google/usenet search on the model
you're interested in, you'll find reviews and discussions of these.
In particular, the D-link NDS-120 and Linksys EFG120 are thrashed by
users who claim they're not ready for prime time.

- Some NAS systems aren't file-system compatible with NTFS, like the
Linksys NSLU2 (an interface to external HDs), which reformats any
drive connected to it into a format unreadable by XP out of the box.
Likewise, an extra drive added to the Buffalotech Linkstation is
read-only unless you let the Buffalo format it first. It also has
some filename limitations and software bugs. The D-link NDS-120
doesn't support NTFS well.

Why is this an issue? The purpose of NAS is not to attach an NTFS drive
that you pulled out of something else, it's to serve up data on the
network. My Novell server can't read NTFS, but that doesn't have an iota
of effect on its functionality as a file server.

- The Ximeta requires a driver on the client PC, so loses some
flexibility there, but it also works as a PnP USB drive, so that makes
up for it some. Their drivers were buggy last time I tried one, but
they claim to have improved them, and I may give them another shot.

- I'm interested in one that will let you daisy-chain additional USB
drives as NAS storage, and many of them (like the linkstation) don't
allow decent security (or any security) on the daisy-chained drives.

Geez, this is turning into Rube Goldberg. Just build a server for God's
sake.

 

[Neil Maxwell]

Why is this an issue? The purpose of NAS is not to attach an NTFS drive
that you pulled out of something else, it's to serve up data on the
network. My Novell server can't read NTFS, but that doesn't have an iota
of effect on its functionality as a file server.

I like flexibility and simplicity, and the option of plugging the
drive directly into a pc and using it for direct non-networked
backup/restore is appealing to me. I recently had to do this, and it
saved my bacon.

My need isn't for file-server NAS per se (though that would be a
secondary function), but for a networked redundant backup archive,
which (for me) sometimes requires direct connection to a box booted
from a True Image CD. This sounded like the sort of thing the OP was
also after, to some extent, so I thought I'd throw in my observations
from that perspective.

Ultimately, my goal is to have a low-power, low-maintenance backup
archive in my safe, with just a power cable and a network cable. One
of these dedicated boxes would do for that, except I want that
plug-into-any-XP-box functionality as well.

Geez, this is turning into Rube Goldberg. Just build a server for God's
sake.

As I said, that's an option, but it's another PC to maintain, and
another OS if you use something like Samba. I've got plenty of PCs
and a few spare laptops, but I'm after a simple, flexible, robust,
expandable solution that won't take a lot of fiddling with to either
set up or maintain. It doesn't seem like such a thing is available
right now, so I'll probably go with either a Shuttle-style mini-box or
a laptop as a backup server, while waiting for home NAS to hit prime
time.

I believe there's an untapped market for this kind of thing, and it
appears the vendors do as well. Eventually, there will be a 90%
perfect solution for a reasonable price, but the technology is still
in the bronze age right now.

YMMV, as always; this is just what I'm hunting for.

 

[J. Clarke]

I like flexibility and simplicity,

Which is it, flexibility or simplicity? The two are mutually exclusive.

and the option of plugging the
drive directly into a pc and using it for direct non-networked
backup/restore is appealing to me. I recently had to do this, and it
saved my bacon.

So reformat it. If you "recently had to" pull a drive out of a server and
stick it in another machine to "save your bacon" then you need to review
your backup strategy.

My need isn't for file-server NAS per se (though that would be a
secondary function), but for a networked redundant backup archive,

Another way of saying "file server".

which (for me) sometimes requires direct connection to a box booted
from a True Image CD.

Why do you need this? If True Image can't archive to or restore from a
network volume it's a piece of shit. Drive Image 2.0 could do this.

This sounded like the sort of thing the OP was
also after, to some extent, so I thought I'd throw in my observations
from that perspective.

Ultimately, my goal is to have a low-power, low-maintenance backup
archive in my safe, with just a power cable and a network cable.

You want to have the device _running_ in a safe? There are so many things
wrong with that idea that I don't know where to begin.

One
of these dedicated boxes would do for that,

Until it fried itself.

except I want that
plug-into-any-XP-box functionality as well.

Which is there, you plug it into the Ethernet port.

As I said, that's an option, but it's another PC to maintain, and
another OS if you use something like Samba.

The NAS is "another PC to maintain" and another OS. If you think that an
NAS device is not a PC then you really need to take one apart.

I've got plenty of PCs
and a few spare laptops, but I'm after a simple, flexible, robust,
expandable solution that won't take a lot of fiddling with to either
set up or maintain.

When I've heard of a cheap NAS that can run for 10 years at a stretch then
I'll believe that they can be "robust".

It doesn't seem like such a thing is available
right now, so I'll probably go with either a Shuttle-style mini-box or
a laptop as a backup server, while waiting for home NAS to hit prime
time.

Which, if you want it to be simple, flexible, and robust it will never do.

I believe there's an untapped market for this kind of thing, and it
appears the vendors do as well. Eventually, there will be a 90%
perfect solution for a reasonable price, but the technology is still
in the bronze age right now.

Why bother? Get a drive for 40 bucks that you can use with NTFS and an NAS
for 40 more.

There's a reason that cheap NAS can't handle NTFS and that is that nobody
can read and write that format reliably except Microsoft and until they
stop dinking with it nobody else will.

 

[dg]

You want to have the device _running_ in a safe? There are so many things
wrong with that idea that I don't know where to begin.

There are some issues, but I admit I myself have thought about this several
times. The idea occurred to me when I was putting some backups in my safe,
I started thinking how cool it would be to just backup TO the safe over
ethernet. There is always a heat issue, but if the device can be low enough
power you MIGHT be able to get away with it. Many folks with gun safes put
something in them called a "goldenrod" that is basically a small heating
element that keeps the temperature high enough that moisture doesn't cause
rust. Perhaps the NAS device could act the same way-you could kill two
birds.

Anyway, the safe idea has also occurred to me, but I don't think I am going
to do it.

--Dan

 

[Rod Speed]

There are some issues, but I admit I myself have thought about this several
times. The idea occurred to me when I was putting some backups in my safe,
I started thinking how cool it would be to just backup TO the safe over
ethernet. There is always a heat issue, but if the device can be low enough
power you MIGHT be able to get away with it. Many folks with gun safes put
something in them called a "goldenrod" that is basically a small heating
element that keeps the temperature high enough that moisture doesn't cause
rust. Perhaps the NAS device could act the same way-you could kill two birds.

Anyway, the safe idea has also occurred
to me, but I don't think I am going to do it.

Should work fine, for protection against burglars, anyway.

Particularly with a discrete hardware NAS, as opposed to a dinosaur PC as a NAS.